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You welcome LDF, I do hope / wish for what I have gained from the dhamma can be shared with others and anything discussed relating to the dhamma can be useful / helpful to others out there.
It was mentioned:
- Average humans believe that the kāmaguṇa (“iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā”) are in external things (rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā)
- If that is the case, we will never be able to remove them from those external things and attain Nibbana!
- One is able to remove them only because they arise in one’s own mind. “
That is very well said Sir.
- “The “uneducated average person (puthujjana)” attributes those six characteristics to the EXTERNAL THINGS: rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā. In other words, they attribute “pañca kāmaguṇāna” to those external rupa, sadda, gandha, etc.”
We believe those six characteristics are inherent in the external things rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā, but actually those six characteristics arises from our mind projecting to external objects.
- “The Buddha taught that EXTERNAL THINGS (houses, cars, music, food…) do not have “pañca kāmaguṇāna.” They arise in the mind because of one’s ignorance of Buddha Dhamma. “
- “The term “pañca kāmaguṇāna” needs to be understood”.
After learning more about “pañca kāmaguṇāna” and seeing the teaching from sutta’s that the Noble 8 Fold Path and cattāro satipaṭṭhānā should be developed to give up kamaguna. I believe the knowledge / understanding of kāmaguṇā would be beneficial to one’s understanding and practice of the dhamma.
From the Sambādhasutta, I’m not exactly sure how I should interpret the English translation “confinement” being used in the sutta. But anyways, it teaches kāmaguṇa as the idea of confinement and that there’s an opportunity amid confinement.
‘Sambādhe gataṁ okāsaṁ,
Avidvā bhūrimedhaso;
‘The opportunity amid confinement
was discovered by the Buddha of vast intelligence
Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation that are called ‘confinement’ by the Buddha.
Now, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.
To this extent the Buddha spoke of an opportunity amid confinement in a qualified sense.”
From Sakuṇagghisutta:
It teaches kāmaguṇa is the domain of Mara and cattāro satipaṭṭhānā is the domain of our fathers. The sutta helped me to come up with the idea of using kāmaguṇa as a warning / danger sign for possible attachment and/or that I have became attached (tanha) and have entered Mara’s domain where I can be unwholesomely influenced. When that happens, I need to put in more effort to carry out the 4 supreme efforts and satipaṭṭhānā to enter back into our fathers domain where Mara cannot influence or get a hold of me. <br /><br />
“So, mendicants, don’t roam out of your own territory into the domain of others. If you roam out of your own territory into the domain of others, Māra will find a vulnerability and get hold of you.
And what is not a mendicant’s own territory but the domain of others? It’s the five kinds of sensual stimulation. (kāmaguṇa)
This is not a mendicant’s own territory but the domain of others.
You should roam inside your own territory, the domain of your fathers. If you roam inside your own territory, the domain of your fathers, Māra won’t find a vulnerability or get hold of you.And what is a mendicant’s own territory, the domain of the fathers? It’s the four kinds of mindfulness meditation.”
I often see Buddhist practitioners out there asking questions on how one should practice meditation relating to the senses and sense objects. Myself don’t focus on and know much about the subject, but now with a updated understanding of kāmaguṇa, I believe it could be used to help me better learn and comprehend the dhamma teachings on the senses and sense objects.- “The answer is no. External things (rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā) do not have kāmaguṇa”.
- “The Buddha taught that EXTERNAL THINGS (houses, cars, music, food…) do not have “pañca kāmaguṇāna.
I believe in the Kathāvatthu, it says that the sense-objects themselves are not kama;
Points of Controversy of Sense-Desires (Kv 8.4)
Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“pañcevāyatanā kāmā”ti
“Hence it is wrong to say that just the five kinds of sense-objects constitute sense-desires.”
After learning more about kāmaguṇa and reading this verse again.
“Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke;
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandan”ti.”
From the sutta, the English word “beautiful” being used for the translation of citrāni caught my attention and felt that the word “beautiful” or yāni citrāni loke could possibly be some clue or idea that could be used for to further clarify kāmaguṇa and kāma / kāmā / kāmehi.
Currently it’s my belief that when it’s said or taught by an Ariya in the sutta’s that something is beautiful, desirable and so on or yāni citrāni loke. Besides the implied mundane / conventional meaning of something that’s “beautiful, desirable, etc”, to me, it’s highly possible that the deeper understanding or meaning of those words could be referring to kāmaguṇa. Because now when I see the the words “beautiful”, “desirable” and similar words being used in the sutta’s, I feel that it could be referring to kāmaguṇa since something is only “beautiful” or “desirable” based on that living being perceiving it to be and not the object itself.
(A) Could yāni citrāni loke and kāmaguṇa have a similar meaning?
I have also come across a sutta where “yāni citrāni” shows up:
“There are so many pretty things in this vast territoryThey disturb one’s thoughts, it seems to me,attractive, provoking lust“Bahūni loke citrāni,asmiṁ pathavimaṇḍale;Mathenti maññe saṅkappaṁ,subhaṁ rāgūpasaṁhitaṁ.The way now I would read this verse; “Kamaguna is vast in our world, they seem attractive, provoking lust and disturbing our thoughts”.(B) I thought of something, could the teaching of kāmaguṇa be connected with the teachings of the ayatana’s? Like how our senses are indriya’s, then becomes ayatana’s when kāmaguṇa arises and kāmaguṇa describes this manifestation of ayatana’s or something?
1 user thanked author for this post.
– “I want to take the time and make sure to get the facts right as much as possible (e.g., references from the Tipitaka.)”
I feel the same way, currently I’m motivated regarding this matter and would like to have or come to some kind of a satisfactory answer really for myself and others that interested in this matter. Recently I tried to explain to myself what “Kāma Guṇa” is and then I started to realize what I have understood or believed about “Kāma Guṇa” wasn’t self consistent and felt that my knowledge and understanding about “Kāma Guṇa” had gaps of understanding. I’m really grateful to be able to come across liked minded people like here on Puredhamma where I can utilize and borrow other’s experiences and intelligence / wisdom to help me discern any misunderstandings that I might have in regards to the dhamma and the sharing of dhamma that can help me to further progress on the Noble 8 Fold Path.
– “I found some suttas that say an Arahant has removed all “Kāma Guṇa” from the mind”.
Thanks for bringing that up! That really helps.I have been investigating into what exactly “Kāma Guṇa” is and currently trying to piece together all the information that I have recently learned from this thread, as well from what I have looked into and contemplated on. There’s a question that I would like to ask for feedback and confirmation to make sure what I’m starting to think and believe about the teaching on “Kāma Guṇa” is in the right direction or is the appropriate understanding.(A) My question is, are there any sense objects rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā “by itself” (without the mind or citta) that can definitely be said to have the “inherent / intrinsic” qualities or characteristics of “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or that’s “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire?”
From what I have contemplated over and over again for the last 2 days on this questions is that “no” there isn’t any such sense objects “by itself” that has the “inherent / intrinsic” qualities or characteristics of “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire”.My believe now is that iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā is based on that living being conditions of the body and mind at that time / moment and when one’s gati, anusaya’s, asava’s, kilesa’s makes phassa (contact) with the 5 sense objects. It’s “not” the 5 sense objects “by itself” that is agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire. It’s one’s gati / kilesa’s that makes 5 sense objects agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire.To me, this would fall inline with what Lal and Lang have brought up: “However, as you stated, “Kāma Guṇa” definitely refers to attachment.”I have been playing around with the name Kāma Guṇa and what I have thought of is qualities or characteristics (guna) leading to Kāma. The qualities or characteristics of cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā or from one of the other 4 sense objects leads to Kāma.(B) Would it be appropriate to say that Kāma Guṇa is more associated with tanha, while Kāma or kāmā, kāmehi is more associated with upadana?“Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. …”I got this translation of Suttacentral and I find the word “known” in the translation to be quite helpful for myself. When I look up the definition of “known”, I get “used to refer to something or someone that is familiar to or understood by people“How this could be potentially helpful to me is that when I apply the definition for “known”;“Sights that are familiar or understood by the eye as likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.”What this “known as”, “familiar with” or “understood” as likeable desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing by the eyes” is relating to our kilesa’s or the teaching of Anuseti.My understanding of the Buddha dhamma is that us as Buddhist practitioners should “know”, “be familiar with”, “understand” what “Kāma Guṇa” is (or when one becomes attached) and that it isn’t something that should be (upadana) liked or desired for.Last night, I came across a sutta where it mentions the Noble 8 Fold Path is for giving up Kāma Guṇa.From the parallel: “The Buddha taught the eightfold path in order to give up the 5 kinds of sensual stimulation“
“Imesaṁ kho, uttiya, pañcannaṁ kāmaguṇānaṁ pahānāya ayaṁ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvetabbo”ti.“This is the noble eightfold path that should be developed to give up these five kinds of sensual stimulation.”1 user thanked author for this post.
From post Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā)
Vedanā Due to Kāma Guṇa Are Not “samphassa-jā-vedanā“
5. However, this sōmanassa vēdanā that arises due to kāma guṇa are NOT the “samphassa-jā-vēdanā.” Somanassa vēdanā due to kāma guṇa arises in an Arahant, as well as in an average human.
- Let us clarify with some examples. Sugar or honey has a “kāma guna” of sweetness. That holds for everyone, from an average person to an Arahant. A beautiful woman will be seen as such by anyone from an ordinary person to an Arahant.
Is revision needed since Kāma Guṇa doesn’t arise in an Arahant?
As well if Kāma Guṇa doesn’t arise in an Arahant, than Sāmisa Vedanā doesn’t arise in an Arahant as well?
From the same post Kāma Guṇa – Origin of attachment (Tanha)
Vedanā Due to Kāma Guṇa Are Sāmisa Vedanā
6. There is a unique name for those “automatically-arising” vēdanā due to kāma guna. They are sāmisa vēdanā.
- The word sāmisa has origins in the keyword “āmisa,” which means “associated with the sensual world” or “kāma lōka.” Thus, sāmisa sukha vēdanā means a “pleasant feeling” that arises due to the nature of the kāma lōka.
- An Arahant, as well as an average human, will experience similar “sāmisa vēdanā.” Any sensory event of kāma lōka is a sāmisa vēdanā.
Greetings Gad, may the Buddha dhamma, Dhammā here and out there help us all living beings to attain the supreme bliss of nibbana.
While I continued to investigate into this matter, I came across this.Page 146 (not scanned page) The comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma:“Though it may seem that pleasure and pain also accompany the other four kinds of sense consciousness, the Abhidhamma maintains that the immediate moment of sense consciousness in these cases is necessarily accompanied by neutral feeling. In the javana phase belonging to the same cognitive process as the moment of sense consciousness, and in subsequent mind-door processes taking the same object, mental pleasure (that is, somanassa or joy) may arise towards an agreeable sight, sound, smell, or taste; mental pain (that is, domanassa or displeasure) may arise towards a disagreeable sight, etc.; and equanimity or neutral feeling (upekkha) may arise towards an object regarded with indifference or detachment. These, however, are mental feelings rather than physical feelings, and they arise subsequent to the moment of bare sense consciousness rather than in immediate association with the bare sense consciousness. As they occur in the javana phase, these feelings are associated with wholesome or unwholesome consciousness, or — in the case of the joy and equanimity experienced by Arahants — with functional consciousness.Initially I was thinking that domanassa could arise in Arahants due to Kāma Guṇa, but after reviewing some Abhidhamma I’m starting to believe that domanassa doesn’t arise in an Arahant or the Buddha even if it’s due to Kāma Guṇa. My current understanding is that domanassa is only associated with dosa as a root (dosamulacittani). The Buddha and Arahants have eradicated all kilesa, that should mean there’s no dosamula citta’s which then domanassa doesn’t arise. Unless domanassa can arises in other ways besides from being rooted in the dosamula citta’s?I just thought of this, but would Kāma Guṇa and pancakkhandha be associated? If so then it seems like Kāma or Kāmā or kāmehicould be associated to panca upadanakkhandha, while Kāma Guṇa could be associated with pancakkhandha?Trying to gain a better understanding about Kāma Guṇa, I thought of taking an Abhidhamma approach and used Bhikkhu Bodhi’s the comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma. On page 69 (not the scanned page) it mentions about wholesome result rootless consciousness kusalavipakaahetukacittani.“Seven of these types of consciousness correspond to the unwholesome-resultants. But whereas the unwholesome-resultants arise in regard to an undesirable object, the wholesome-resultants arise in regard to an object that is desirable (ittha) or extremely desirable (ati-ittha). The first four sense consciousness here, like their counterparts, are associated with equanimity, that is, neutral feeling; but the impact of the object on the body being strong, the feeling associated with wholesome-resultant body-consciousness is that of bodily pleasure (sukha).The rootless wholesome-resultants include one type of consciousness without a counterpart among the unwholesome-resultants. This is the investigating consciousness accompanied by joy (somanassa). Whereas the investigating consciousness resulting from unwholesome kamma is always accompanied by neutral feeling, that resulting from wholesome kamma is twofold: one accompanied by neutral feeling, arisen in regard to a moderately desirable object, and one accompanied by joy, which arises when the object is especially desirable”.Is there a connection between kusalavipakaahetukacittani and Kāma Guṇa?
It’s interesting to me seeing the Pali word “iṭṭhā” which arise in regards to an object that is desirable”. I notice that “iṭṭhā” also shows up as a description for Kāma Guṇa.
“Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.” Katame pañca?
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
Can rupa raga also mean that one has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” of jhana’s.
Or for an Anagami besides raga for the Buddha dhamma, also has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” / “experiencing” of the Buddha dhamma.
– “P.S. “Rupa raga” includes jhanic sukha, but is not restricted to that; “attachment to Dhamma” is also included in rupa raga”
Thank you !!! I was actually considering / thinking of that.
Could rupa raga also mean raga for niramisa sukha?
It’s taught that Anagami still has rupa raga and arupa rage, if someone didn’t cultivate jhana’s and they attained the anagami stage. Besides raga for jhanic states, are there other ways of understanding what rupa raga is or for an anagami besides raga for jhanic states, are there other rupa raga an anagami might have? I tried searching the site, but not able to find much information relating to anagami and rupa raga.
Okay, at a later time when you have a better idea about your work developments or what you have decided on let me know then.
I’m hoping others can also make the trip! and thank you Lal for the recommendation.
I brought this up because was hoping some of the forum members here might make a trip to Sri Lanka this year. I was already planning on to be flexible and open to the different dates of travel to Sri Lanka if that allows me to meet up with the other forum members. Personally I wanted go anytime after September and as soon as I can, so my date is not exactly set. If LDF, Jorg and his friend would like to meet up, I can arrange my schedule to / in Sri Lanka to meet up.
As well Jorg and LDF, if we do end up meeting in Sri Lanka and our planning / timing works out, you’re free to join me and possibly some Thero’s to the Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi and other sacred sites around the area. I heard it would take about 3 days to travel “comfortably” around the area to the other sacred sites. Comfortably meaning not rushing during the travel and having time to meditate around the sites or hoping to anyways. . .
Btw Jorg, how long do you plan to stay in Sri Lanka for? For me, it’ll be about 3 weeks.
For the past day or so I have been trying to figure out or see if there’s any difference in meaning between the words kāma & kāmā when used in the sutta’s. From reading and learning from the PD posts, I understand that kāma & kāmā would mean the same thing, the desiring and relishing of the 5 sense objects or kama assada, sankappa raga and so on.Taking that to the test on the sutta’s, I initially thought there might’ve been a different meaning assigned to kāmā in the sutta’s. Because in Pali dictionary or a search online, it would bring up a singular and plural definition.
1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure;
2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba,I’ve taken kāmā the plural form meaning as the objects of sensual pleasures and applied it to some sutta’s, but don’t always end up with a consistent interpretation or explanation. While using the interpretation of the desiring and relishing of the 5 sense objects or kama assada for whenever the words kāma & kāmā is used showed more of a consistent interpretation / translation.What I have learned and realized for myself through investigating is that kāma & kāmā, the singular and plural meaning giving by dictionaries and by combining both together actually gives the definition / meaning for kāma & kāmā!And that is in singular form: wish, desire, pleasure for (in plural form) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba.Or the wishing, desiring, relishing (sankappa raga) for the 5 sense objects which is rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba.But regardless of Pali grammar play, I believe I just came across a Pali source that states what “kāmā” is or I believe anyways. Basically it’s what’s been taught in some PD posts here, sankappa raga, kama raga and others.“Vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehī”ti tattha katame kāmā? Chando kāmo, rāgo kāmo, chandarāgo kāmo, saṅkappo kāmo, rāgo kāmo, saṅkapparāgo kāmo—ime vuccanti “kāmā”.Is kāmā the plural word of “kāma”?
I understand “kāma” to be sankappa raga, but not exactly sure what kāmā would exactly mean.
Do they mean the exact same thing or “kāmā” can also have different meanings?
– What are some hugely meritorious activities we can do every day for the purpose of creating a conducive environment for Nibbāna?In addition to what was mentioned, if I have understood this correctly, I believe contemplating on anicca is the highest meritorious activity that we can do in our every day life.I don’t really know much or would like to comment too much on this topic, but thought of sharing an observation / comment.– “The Maha Bodhi Tree is the most exceptional tree in the entire existence”.– “You will be surprised but the original Bodhi Tree is not in India. It is actually in Anuradhapura, Sri Lanka”– “The real Bodhi Tree CAN NOT be destroyed by anything or anyone in the universe because it is the focal point of the Pure Immeasurable Buddha Energy.”If the real Bodhi Tree cannot be destroyed by anything or anyone in the universe, then the current or previous Bodhi tree located in Mahabodhi Temple in India cannot be the real Bodhi tree. Because it’s mentioned:“The original tree under which Siddhartha Gautama sat is no longer living. It was destroyed by a storm in the 6th century AD. However, a descendant of the original tree was planted in its place, and this tree is still alive today. It is located in the Mahabodhi Temple in Bodh Gaya, India, and it is a major pilgrimage site for Buddhists from all over the world.”How can the real Bodhi tree be destroyed by a storm even when Mara and his army cannot even come close to it? This doesn’t make any sense.If the original Bodhi Tree is actually in Anuradhapura, how do we reconcile with the materials that says / mentions the Bodhi Tree in Anuradhapura was brought over by Sangamitta Maha Theri from India?Since this issue or the question I brought up isn’t the most critical on the path. Currently I’m not really seeking an satisfactory answer, but just thought I would share my observation or comment.1 user thanked author for this post.
