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Much thanks for the valuable feedback and teachings provided for all of us to consider / think / contemplate about / on and potentially helping us all to gain a better understanding of the Buddha teachings.
It was mentioned that:
“3. (Abhi)saṅkhāra can also be categorized as kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra. They are all done with “sañcetanā.”
A reference from the Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga I came across in the past where I believe where it may support the teaching that Abhisankhara can also be categorized as the 3 sankhara’s and being all the 3 sankhara’s can be done with sañcetanā.Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? Kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”.
Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?
(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.This is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes’
——————————————-I have a question and seek clarification on where it was mentioned;- Yes. The “Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44)” explains them as “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.” The English translation in the link translates the first part as “Breathing is a physical process,” implying that Assāsapassāsā means “breathing in and out.”
- Of course, breathing is also controlled by the mind, but it does not involve “sañcetanā.”
Do you agree with the implied meaning from Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44) that assāsapassāsā means breathing in and out or is your line of thinking on assāsapassāsā from Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44) means what was said later on in the previous post that; “Assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” as “one must fully comprehend how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage.” Thus, “Assāsapassāsā” is not a definition of kāya saṅkhāra. It merely states that to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, one must fully comprehend how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage.”? Or what exactly is your take on the meaning of assāsapassāsā from the Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44) where it’s implied with the meaning of breathing in and out?“Saṅkhārā is clearly understood as belonging to the mind. The five aggregates—Rūpa, Vedanā, Saññā, Saṅkhārā, and Viññāṇa—include Saṅkhārā as a mental factor. However, I find it difficult to understand how the physical movement of going to get water is defined as Kāya Saṅkhārā. It’s challenging to see how muscle movements can be considered part of the mind. The action of going to get water is generally seen as a result of mental intention. Does this mean Kāya Saṅkhārā = mind? If so, does Kāya Saṅkhārā ≠ physical movement (even though it results from the mind)? Similarly, in the case of verbal expressions, Vacī Saṅkhāra seems to function in the same way.
In the past, I understood Saṅkhāra (which refers to intention) as something more aligned with a purely mental concept. Is that understanding correct?”
Hello Amin,
What you said and the question you brought forth, from my own past experience / contemplation and view can actually be quite complicated to answer. About a year ago, I also had and still do today have a similar line of thinking and question as you have in regards to sankhara being a purely mental concept or not.The reason why I said your question / line of thinking about sankhara can actually be quite complicated to answer is because I can add more layers to your (our) question / line of thinking. For myself, I had to step away from seeking a satisfactory answer to our similar question because it got so complicated in trying to fully address the question / line of thinking. I felt when one layer of the question gets answered; it seems like another layer of questions would open up where it needs to be addressed to gain a more complete / satisfactory answer.
To give you a short example of the complexity in trying to fully answer our question about sankharas being a purely mental concept or not especially when it comes to kaya sankhara. In one of the sutta’s, it defines kaya sankhara as assasa passasa and pretty much all the translations / interpretations I have come across equates kaya sankhara to the process of breathing in and breathing out. To me if someone answers that all sankharas (mano, vaci, kaya) is purely a mental concept, then how would the translation / interpretation of kaya sankhara being tied to breathing resolve this discrepancy? If someone answers that sankharas are not purely mental, I feel an explanation would be difficult to provide in fully addressing the example you given as to why you believe the 3 sankhara’s (mano, vaci, kaya) all results from the mind or a purely mental concept. Like I said, I also have the similar line of thinking (which could possibly be wrong / incorrect / mistaken) in regard to sankhara “possibly” being a purely mental concept.
If you come across or are provided any answers / explanations to your question outside of this forum, please do share it here since I’m also interested in any answers or explanation to your question. If you’re not able to receive any satisfactory answers or explanations to your question and since this what I have to do for the time being, one can always fall back to the common interpretation / translation of sankhara being where it might not be a purely a mental concept. Like I mentioned earlier, one of the strongest case to be made where sankhara might not be a all mental concept is from the commonly and widely accepted translation / interpretation in the sutta’s where it mentions kaya sankhara being tied to breathing. From the Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44):
“How many processes are there?”
“There are these three processes. Physical, verbal, and mental processes.”
“But ma’am, what is the physical process? What’s the verbal process? What’s the mental process?”
“Kasmā panāyye, assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro
“Breathing is a physical process. Placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes. Perception and feeling are mental processes.”
“But ma’am, why is breathing a physical process?
“Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro.
“Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process.
Like I mentioned where we believe / think that sankhara might be a purely a mental concept, it’s possible that our line of thinking might be wrong / incorrect or that we’re missing something. But as of this time, to me it’s still not very clear if sankhara is purely a mental concept or not. Since currently I’m still not fully satisfied with the translation / interpretation of kaya sankhara being a “fully physical concept” getting the idea from being tied to breathing as a physical process and unsure of the answer to our similar question / line of thinking, I’m just keeping my mind open about the possibility of being wrong or correct in my thinking.
I’m not sure if the Youtube channel you linked in your post is your Youtube channel or another but seeing some of the video’s in Korean, I would like to say much merits to you or the person whom created the Korean videos and give the teachings. As far as I know, the Buddha teachings we learn from (ex. Puredhamma, Authentic Dhamma and others similar), there isn’t any or much materials on the teachings in Korean and Japanese. Much merits to the person whom give the teachings in Korean and started the channel. Saddhu saddhu saddhu.
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“If after death, there is no “me” continuing into a next existence – but instead, a new stream of vinnana arises with different identity, conditions, and form (say, a “John or a dog) – then what connection do I have with that future being? Why should I care? Why should I be concerned about what happens in a future rebirth?”
Some years back I had the exact same question but never ended up asking anyone for an answer because before needing to a satisfactory answer came to mind, for myself anyways. Coming across the question again now, I would like to share what came across my mind for the very same question that I once had and hope it can be of use / assistance to others on their path.
My understanding is that initially one should put some care / concern in regards to what happens in a future rebirth because it helps one to gain a better understanding of the Buddha teachings such as the rebirth process or samsara that all living beings are trapped in. But later on when one gains a better / deeper understanding of sakkaya ditthi and the fundamental teachings of the Buddha / dhamma. Hopefully the wisdom gained / cultivated during the learning and practicing process of the teachings will help the learner / practitioner to have seen / understood some degree of the main message / teaching that the Buddha is trying to get across to us sattas. If the characteristics of our world or all conditioned phenomenon is anicca, dukkha, anatta. Through the eyes of wisdom regardless if there’s a me / self / I and so on or not, the practitioner would want to put an end to / cease the rebirth process / samsara because that’s the wise thing to do / carry out and that’s all it really matters in the end.
So for myself, it no longer really matters if there’s a self / I / me or not or be concerned what happens in a future rebirth, it’s beyond my control anyways. What I can do though is to continue to put forth the effort in learning and practicing the Buddha teachings. “To some degree”, understanding and seeing that this conditioned world or any conditioned phenomenon is meaningless, unfruitful, none beneficial, anicca, dukkha, anatta and if I have gained / cultivated any wisdom from all these years of learning and practicing the Buddha teachings. Regardless if there is a self / I / me or not, in the end the wise thing to do / carry out is to strive for the attainment of nibbana.
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” Of course, this issue does not affect our goal of attaining Nibbana. “
I totally agree. Myself don’t place utmost importance on this issue but I happened to come across the document and thought to share it since I have come across some discussions in this forum and others that can relate to some of the things mentioned in the document.
Sir when you have the time or interest in taking a look at the document, please do provide some feedback at your convenience since I don’t have the familiarity / knowledge to verify or confirm all the information in the document and you’ll be much more familiar / knowledgeable with Sri Lanka’s culture, language and history.
“If each existence represents different “person”, why should one worry about future suffering?”<br /><br />
Over the years I have seen the same or similar question brought up in different places. I can understand why others might think and feel this way.
What I can say in addition to already what’s been mentioned is that if my memory serves me correctly, I believe it’s a Theravada orthodox teaching that teaches one of the sufferings preta’s (hungry ghost) experience is that the preta’s would remember the unwholesome kamma they committed from their previous lives and unpleasant vipaka such domanassa (unpleasant thoughts), lamentation, pain, grief, despair or the dukkhakkhandhassa would continuously torment (come to back) their mind and body.
Here’s a PD post that can be related to this thread.
A perspective / way of thinking that helped me to see things from another approach is that regardless what myself and others might interpret / believe what anatta means, whether there is self or no self as well the question of whether one should worry about future suffering. As long we understand the 3 characteristics anicca, dukkha, anatta takes effect for any living beings phenomenon / experience in the present and into the future and how no living beings (satta’s) are exempt from these 3 characteristics in any realms of existence. I believe the wise, intelligent, important, right or most sensible thing to do with our current jati would be to strive / walk on the Noble 8 Fold Path to attain nibbana.
Currently we’re so fortunate to have the Buddha dhamma teachings still available to us living beings to learn and practice from. The resources we have today can be considered both unfavorable and favorable for us dhamma practitioners to at least attain the sotapanna stage. For us Buddhist practitioners, we should really use the best of this opportunity in our current jati for the betterment of our life stream and all sentient beings. As one of many examples that could be given, imagine one day being able to guarantee other living beings that one won’t cause / do harm to them. If there’s a path / way to attain such a characteristic, wouldn’t this be a wise / sensible / intelligent thing to carry out as a living being regardless if there’s a self or not?
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Hello Taryal, thank you for the video’s. They were informative and make some good points. Those that believe the Earth is flat would have a hard time to come up with some reasonable answers.Hello Waisaka, in regards to your question if I ever seen the pale blue dot picture taken by voyager, yes I have.“The creature called human at that time did not have a solid body.”“This is my wild thought, humans billions of years ago had a different form than humans today.”I also believed the same before this discussion. It’s been my belief that the first humans on this planet had brahma / deva like body or not solid body like what we currently have. Or I think similar to what Lal wrote in this thread and from the post Agganna sutta.“Why is it like there is no justice in this world if we use the perspective of no-punabbhava.. Only the sammasambudhha can explain very-very well and in detail like abhidhamma. And Buddha also has incomparable love, his love wants beings to be free from the trap of samsara. There is no benefit for Buddha to lie, he previously left power and wealth.From this small thing I am very strong in believing in Buddha, dhamma, sangha. “Wonderful to hear! Saddhu saddhu saddhu!!! May your and others belief in the triplegem and the carrying out of the Noble 8 Fold Path help us all living beings to attain the supreme bliss of nibbana!“Do those actions involve sancetana (i.e., with raga, dosa, moha in mind)?”
My apologize, I should’ve included whether there’s defiled intentions behind the examples given. For the next post in this thread, I’ll work on to better express my thoughts in a more clear and concise manner. Really thank you for your time and energy spent on answering my questions, as well for the experience showing what I can do to further improve.
Thank you sir and sorry for any inconveniences that I might have caused with my previous questioning.
2. I do not know why it asks the question, “What is kaya sankhara?” and goes on to explain the other two types as well.
- But it should not matter. Should it?
I’m not sure, maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. That’s what I’m trying to figure out.
Would moving the “physical” mouth / tongue, nose, eyes, ears be considered kaya sankhara or more specifically when we use our mouth, nose, eyes or ears for a intended purpose? For example, I’m sitting down, my arms, legs, head are not moving at all. Then all of sudden a sight catches my eyes and I would focus on the sight with the eyes without moving any parts of my body besides maybe my eyes. Or I would turn on some music with the intention of enjoying the sound that would go through the ears to the mind. Would such actions or examples be considered as kaya sankhara according to sir or others thinking?
Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? Kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”.
English translation
Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?
(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.
This is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes’.
____
Based on what’s quoted, I take it the question of “What is kayasankharo”? or something similar is being asked / expressed. My interest lies in the vibhanga then goes on to list the different sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, citta, mano right after, almost like the vibhanga is saying those different sancetana’s and sankhara’s are also kayasankhara?
Seeing “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā” at the end of the sentence leads me to believe that the vibhanga is saying those sañcetanā‘s and sankhara‘s are “avijja paccaya sankhara”, which I would agree. But what I’m trying to wrap my head around is why would the phrase Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? be mentioned and then have those sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, mano, citta listed right after? Any thoughts on this?
I know the other sankhara’s (vaci, citta) and kaya sankhara are defined in the Culavedallasutta M.N 44. What’s also of interest to me is that from the P.S. vibhanga English translation and under the same section 1.2 Definition of (volitional) process.
The Analysis of Conditional Origination
I could be mistaken or might have missed, but I don’t see Tattha katamo of the other 2 sankhara’s or “What is vacisankharo or mano / citta sankhara” being mentioned in the P.S. vibhanga and only coming across Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro?.
Hello Nibbid83, may you and all living beings be and stay well.
If you’re interested in supporting some monasteries in Sri Lanka, I can and know someone that help you with that. I have a contact in Sri Lanka whom I sent my money to and she helps me to hold the money and send the money to the monasteries in Sri Lanka at my request. She’s very trustable, I have known her for years and have met her 2 times personally in Sri Lanka, as well she follows and practices the dhamma.
I live in Canada and the problem / issue I found when I send or donate money through the banks to monasteries in Sri Lanka is that the banks usually charge a hefty fee on the transfer. I believe one time at least the bank took like $30 -$40 USD just for a transfer. . . So I no longer use the bank instead I use Western Union. If you would like to know more or have any questions or concerns, you can e-mail me at [email protected] or you can inquire further here in this thread.
A monastery in Sri Lanka I can recommend to support is:
Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery
I have been to the monastery 2 times and can see they do their best to help all sentient beings. A few PD members are there right now or have visited there. DanielST a former member recently ordained at the monastery.
Starting at 3:20 of the video. My search for the truth
A monastery I’m looking into start possibility supporting is Parama Nibbana Dharmayathanaya
Something for consideration, although it’s important to donate / offer to satta’s with higher merits / attainments. What’s also important is our intention and deeper understanding of the intentions we’re carrying out.
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May you Pathfinder and all of us living beings be well.
“I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to clinging/ panca upadana khanda, on top of how things are conditioned”.
“If we take anicca to be “not icca/ not to our liking”, then it implies that we have icca for it in the first place”
I completely agree that it’s helpful and I’ll add “needed” to think of anicca in relation to the clinging / pancaupadanakkhanda. Definitely beneficial, lots to observe, learn and realize from this teaching. Before last year, I feel most of what I learned and understood over the years in regards to anicca was in respect to pancaupadanakkhanda. But recently something that really helped me to further my understanding of anicca and one of the most simple example I can think of to share what helped me is be based on some modification of your words “I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to how things are conditioned on top of the pancaupadanakkhanda”. The conditioning here I’m talking about isn’t just about the akusala-mula being initiated or with some form of attachment, but relating to all of our experiences / phenomenon. This is my understanding, as long as one is a satta anywhere in the 31 realms, anicca takes effect regardless if one has icca / attachments (tanha, asava’s, anusaya’s) or not, even the Noble 8 Fold Path itself is anicca.
“the puddle of water does not cause dukkha to us, then it would not be anicca too by the logical statement”.
I believe to understand your logical / reasoning, to me the puddle of water or our experiencing of it is anicca itself and like you said “Since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are linked (Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā – whatever is anicca is dukkha, whatever is dukkha is anatta)”. Since I said our experiencing of the puddle of water is anicca itself, then that means dukkha and anatta follow. My understanding of dukkha doesn’t necessarily just mean “suffering”, but can mean different things depending on the context. Regardless whether the puddle of water cause us dukkha (based on attachment) or not, it would still be considered dukkha to me. If one is not attached to the experience / phenomenon even with right view, I would still consider that as dukkha as well since it’s anicca, but not the dukkha that comes with attachment or the akusala-mula P.S.
“and not that every single thing is anicca”.
If I may ask, based on Paramattha Sacca (4 ultimate truths) rupa, citta, cetasika and nibbana. Besides nibbana, which of rupa, citta or cetasika is not anicca?
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Hello Pathfinder,
This is just my understanding, hope it helps in any way. Anything that’s conditioned, dependently originated or the “all” (sabba) from this world including arahants and Sammasambuddha’s experiences anicca. As well anicca takes effect regardless if one “clings or attaches” to the 5 aggregates or not. The only time when something is not anicca or doesn’t experience it is when it’s “not” conditioned or dependently originated which would be nicca.
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