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Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? Kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”.
English translation
Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?
(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.
This is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes’.
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Based on what’s quoted, I take it the question of “What is kayasankharo”? or something similar is being asked / expressed. My interest lies in the vibhanga then goes on to list the different sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, citta, mano right after, almost like the vibhanga is saying those different sancetana’s and sankhara’s are also kayasankhara?
Seeing “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā” at the end of the sentence leads me to believe that the vibhanga is saying those sañcetanā‘s and sankhara‘s are “avijja paccaya sankhara”, which I would agree. But what I’m trying to wrap my head around is why would the phrase Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro? be mentioned and then have those sancetana’s and sankhara’s kaya, vaci, mano, citta listed right after? Any thoughts on this?
I know the other sankhara’s (vaci, citta) and kaya sankhara are defined in the Culavedallasutta M.N 44. What’s also of interest to me is that from the P.S. vibhanga English translation and under the same section 1.2 Definition of (volitional) process.
The Analysis of Conditional Origination
I could be mistaken or might have missed, but I don’t see Tattha katamo of the other 2 sankhara’s or “What is vacisankharo or mano / citta sankhara” being mentioned in the P.S. vibhanga and only coming across Tattha katamo kāyasaṅkhāro?.
Hello Nibbid83, may you and all living beings be and stay well.
If you’re interested in supporting some monasteries in Sri Lanka, I can and know someone that help you with that. I have a contact in Sri Lanka whom I sent my money to and she helps me to hold the money and send the money to the monasteries in Sri Lanka at my request. She’s very trustable, I have known her for years and have met her 2 times personally in Sri Lanka, as well she follows and practices the dhamma.
I live in Canada and the problem / issue I found when I send or donate money through the banks to monasteries in Sri Lanka is that the banks usually charge a hefty fee on the transfer. I believe one time at least the bank took like $30 -$40 USD just for a transfer. . . So I no longer use the bank instead I use Western Union. If you would like to know more or have any questions or concerns, you can e-mail me at [email protected] or you can inquire further here in this thread.
A monastery in Sri Lanka I can recommend to support is:
Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery
I have been to the monastery 2 times and can see they do their best to help all sentient beings. A few PD members are there right now or have visited there. DanielST a former member recently ordained at the monastery.
Starting at 3:20 of the video. My search for the truth
A monastery I’m looking into start possibility supporting is Parama Nibbana Dharmayathanaya
Something for consideration, although it’s important to donate / offer to satta’s with higher merits / attainments. What’s also important is our intention and deeper understanding of the intentions we’re carrying out.
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May you Pathfinder and all of us living beings be well.
“I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to clinging/ panca upadana khanda, on top of how things are conditioned”.
“If we take anicca to be “not icca/ not to our liking”, then it implies that we have icca for it in the first place”
I completely agree that it’s helpful and I’ll add “needed” to think of anicca in relation to the clinging / pancaupadanakkhanda. Definitely beneficial, lots to observe, learn and realize from this teaching. Before last year, I feel most of what I learned and understood over the years in regards to anicca was in respect to pancaupadanakkhanda. But recently something that really helped me to further my understanding of anicca and one of the most simple example I can think of to share what helped me is be based on some modification of your words “I think it can be helpful to think of anicca with respect to how things are conditioned on top of the pancaupadanakkhanda”. The conditioning here I’m talking about isn’t just about the akusala-mula being initiated or with some form of attachment, but relating to all of our experiences / phenomenon. This is my understanding, as long as one is a satta anywhere in the 31 realms, anicca takes effect regardless if one has icca / attachments (tanha, asava’s, anusaya’s) or not, even the Noble 8 Fold Path itself is anicca.
“the puddle of water does not cause dukkha to us, then it would not be anicca too by the logical statement”.
I believe to understand your logical / reasoning, to me the puddle of water or our experiencing of it is anicca itself and like you said “Since anicca, dukkha, and anatta are linked (Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā – whatever is anicca is dukkha, whatever is dukkha is anatta)”. Since I said our experiencing of the puddle of water is anicca itself, then that means dukkha and anatta follow. My understanding of dukkha doesn’t necessarily just mean “suffering”, but can mean different things depending on the context. Regardless whether the puddle of water cause us dukkha (based on attachment) or not, it would still be considered dukkha to me. If one is not attached to the experience / phenomenon even with right view, I would still consider that as dukkha as well since it’s anicca, but not the dukkha that comes with attachment or the akusala-mula P.S.
“and not that every single thing is anicca”.
If I may ask, based on Paramattha Sacca (4 ultimate truths) rupa, citta, cetasika and nibbana. Besides nibbana, which of rupa, citta or cetasika is not anicca?
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Hello Pathfinder,
This is just my understanding, hope it helps in any way. Anything that’s conditioned, dependently originated or the “all” (sabba) from this world including arahants and Sammasambuddha’s experiences anicca. As well anicca takes effect regardless if one “clings or attaches” to the 5 aggregates or not. The only time when something is not anicca or doesn’t experience it is when it’s “not” conditioned or dependently originated which would be nicca.
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Regarding assāsapassāsā being related to kaya sankhara and assāsapassāsā being defined / interpreted / translated as breathing in this case. Does this mean that rupa and arupa brahma’s don’t initiate kaya sankhara since they don’t have mouth or nose to breath in and out of?
Thank you for the reply Venerable Sir, it definitely helped me to rethink things again. When I said “I’m starting to really doubt kaya sankhara as in and out breaths” maybe that was not the best choice of words. Instead I should’ve shared my idea or the reason’s for thinking so and get scrutiny and feedback.“I tend to think that there are two meanings: In the first case, breathing stops while one is in the fourth jhana samapatti. The meaning in the second case is entirely different.”My current thinking is that “it’s possible” in the first case where maybe something more than just the breath stopping or that it might not even be about just breathing. While in the second case I also believe it’s something entirely different.When I can gather more data and can better share the reasons for my thinking, I do hope to share then for scrutiny and feedback. Thank you once again.1 user thanked author for this post.
“In this sutta, Lord Buddha talks about various objects of meditation (Kasina) which he teaches to his disciples. He even teaches meditation with colours and elements like fire. Is the English translation of the sutta correct or is it a misinterpretation? Mahāsakuludāyisutta
Furthermore, I have explained to my disciples a practice that they use to develop the ten universal dimensions of meditation.”Hope you and every living being are doing well Jittananto,In regards to the question if Lord Buddha taught meditation with colours and elements like fire, there’s been previous discussion’s with the same or similar questions. I hope you’ll find what you’re looking for.Recently I came across a sutta that might be useful to see if the Buddha did teach colour or element meditation or not and if one does believe the Buddha did teach colour and / or element meditation, then the sutta teaches how the practitioner should view / perceive any of those attainments :)1 user thanked author for this post.
Hello Pathfinder,
My observation, I really appreciate the effort and diligence you and others put into your discernment of the dhamma. May the Buddha Sasana help us all living beings on the path to Nibbana. As well thank you and others for your patience and goodwill in your discussions.
“TripleGemStudent: In the sutta’s the formula for any dhatu meditation is always Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti in the end.
This is interesting and it makes sense to me. could you share a sutta reference?”
Here’s the sutta’s reference.
I linked Maharahulovadasutta to the part of internal air element. It show’s in and out breaths being classified as an internal air element and that’s what I mean by breathing meditation is a vayo dhatu meditation. From my understanding, one of the practices is to contemplate on vinnana and all 5 elements earth, water, fire, air, space internally, externally and both internally and externally (ajjhattaṃ, bahiddhā, ajjhattabahiddhā) and in the end see them as Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti or their nature, the Tilakkhana and / or P.S. That’s what I mean by when I said “Observing or focusing on the breath as meditation technique is a vayo kasina or like 1% of the full Buddhist dhatu meditation”. But regardless whether one practices breathing meditation or not, I believe in the end, what’s important is to see and understand the arisen experiences / phenomenon or citta’s, vedana and how they cease and apply teachings like etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti,4 noble truths, tilakkhana, P.S. and other teachings.
One of the forum member mentioned:
“For example, when there is a moment of vaci sankhara starting to lead to something negative, immediately realize it, reflect on the consequences of its karma, and tilakkhana.”
I thought what’s said was simple, practical and another way to say how anapana sati / satipatthana can be practiced / carried out. I would also like to add “not just realizing something negative”, but also positive and neutral. Or sukha (sōmanassa), dukkha ( dōmanassa), adukhamasukha (upekkha) using the teachings on the “all” (sabba) to reflect / contemplate on the tilakkhana nature of what has arisen and know it’s cessation. If one notices they got attached through akusala-mula p.s. or from what Lal mentioned, “panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.)” and other teachings on how one get’s attached. Put into the practice of nirodha which is the Noble 8 Fold Path to the attachment (avija, tanha, upadana, so on) process / condition or at all times. We should also reflect on the consequences of those karma or the consequences of our thoughts, speech and actions. To see if it’s in line with the vinaya, doing what we can not to carry out the dasa akusala which does harm to us, others and the world and we go into existential debt. Instead practice the habit of transferring of merits, strive to cultivate kusala, put dhamma and noble 8 fold path into practice.
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Hope everyone is doing well and with their practice.
“I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this.”
One doesn’t necessary need to observe the breath to observe the body . . . Observing or focusing on the breath as meditation is a vayo kasina or 1 % of the full Buddhist dhatu meditation. One needs to contemplate / comprehend all the 4 dhatus and not just with vayo ( air)
In the sutta’s the formula for any dhatu meditation is always Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti in the end. Maybe I might have forgotten or missed, but from all the different Buddhism teachers / teachings I have come across teaching others to focus on the breath, I have yet see any teacher that teaches breath meditation as Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti. There’s more things I can say about this, but don’t currently have the time to type all the things I want to say.
“The body is like this” is applying the tilakkhana to the six internal sense spheres and the six external sense sphere.
See the connection with the sections Kāyānupassanāpaṭikūlamanasikārapabba, Kāyānupassanādhātumanasikārapabba, Kāyānupassanānavasivathikapabba. Internally, externally, both internally and externally . . .
Here’s another take / teaching on Anapanasati / Satipatthana.
I linked the video to the anapanasati / satipatthana series of video, but I would also recommend to watch the earlier video’s / teachings in the series which helps to gain a more complete / better understanding relating to the teachings in the video linked.
All the best.
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I thought the materials presented from a previous discussion linked below could be applicable for this current topic / subject.
Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ can also refers to Nibbana?
Instead of unrestricted awareness, maybe it might be better to called “Uncontaminated or undefiled awareness”?
“Can anyone point out how to express those ten things?”
One word that I can think of to express these 10 things is “pancaupadanakkhanda”.
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Hello Pathfinder, I wish you and all of us living beings all the best.
It’s informative seeing questions from forum members and answers from Lal and others. I really do hope forum members continue to ask questions. Not sure if I had the chance to welcome Pathfinder, Tayral and others to PD and forum, but would like to sincerely welcome you all. May we all be of help for all of us living beings attainment of nibbana.
Thank you Jittananto for sharing and posting resources / materials related to Buddhism. From my experiences, it’s always a beneficial idea to keep an open mind about the teachings from different teachers and materials, but not to blindly believe in them.Pathfinder, you mentioned:
“From here do you imply that Bahiya was able to comprehend the basic rules of kamma, that suffering arises from ignorance, the paticca samuppada process just from these 4 lines? It seems highly impossible for me. I agree that one can link all the above concepts to the 4 lines, but to be able to know the existence of the concepts, let alone understand them seems not possible. “<br />
“If what Buddha said is only from what is written in Sutta Central, then I am still confused how one can derive an understanding of rebirth, paticca samuppada, kamma from those words alone in Sutta Central”.From one of the materials Jittananto posted, I found something of interest relating to this post:Writing on PaccekaBuddha’s from the page:
“This is a term for an Arahat (s. ariya-puggala) who has realized Nibbāna without having heard the Buddha’s doctrine from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka), independent of any teacher, by his own effort. He has, however, not the capacity to proclaim the Teaching effectively to others, and therefore does not become a ‘Teacher of Gods and Men’, a Perfect or Universal Buddha (sammā-sambuddha). -“
What are you thoughts on SammasamBuddha’s and paccekaBuddha’s? Or more specially what do you think of how a SammasamBuddha or paccekaBuddha’s can come to the understanding / comprehension of the rules of kamma, Paticca Samuppada, 4 Noble Truths and other doctrines without hearing or listening to the teachings from another? It’s my understanding and belief that hearing / listening to even 1 line of the Buddha’s doctrine could be enough to help one to attain nibbana, especially from an Ariya, likewise from the Buddha.2 users thanked author for this post.
– “How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha”
Dukkha to me doesn’t necessary mean just “suffering” as a (vedana). But of course I could agree to that dukkha can mean suffering (as a vedana), suffering that can be removed, unsatisfactoriness and other meanings.
Something for consideration is that from my current understanding, one should look / see / contemplate “dukkha” beyond than just vedana itself. Not taking dukkha just as vedana, but also as a characteristic, process, mechanism.
Here’s a post from PD that can help to further communicate what I’m trying to convey.
This past while, I have been trying to come up with other possible ways to contemplate, see, understand more about “dukkha”. So far what I have been able to think of to contemplate more on what dukkha could possibly mean is, “defiled / corruption / corrupted / corrupting”. What’s quite interesting to me is that some of the definitions for the word “corruption” actually could convey some of the examples that I believe to fit dukkha quite well as a characteristic / process / mechanism. Here are some examples.
The action or effect of making someone or something impure.The process by which something is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous.The act or state of worsening or making or getting worse.The characteristic of being devious or underhanded.The wrong or improper use of something.A corrupting influence that is difficult to eradicate.A false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something.A fault or flaw that compromises someone or something.An act involving dishonesty or deception.Many of these definitions resonate with me especially “A false, absurd, or distorted representation of something”.
A perfect example of this definition that relates to dukkha (for me) would be when we experience dependently originated feelings such as sukha. When a puthujjana experiences sukha, they believe that sukha comes from the outside world. It could possibly be from a “thing, object, item, person” and so on. But they don’t know, see, understand the true reality of the sukha that their experiencing or the phenomenon that they’re experiencing. So what puthujjana’s do is when they experience a pleasurable / pleasant experience, they try to maintain this experience or continuously seek experiences that can bring sukha (pleasurable, pleasant experiences) either through moral or immoral means. To me, as long as one doesn’t understand and see at that moment how that sukha vedana or any phenomenon arises, any dependently originated vedana or phenomenon is a false / distorted representation.
– Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?
It’s my believe that everything is dukkha as long as one doesn’t understand and mindfully meditate on the 4 Noble truths / samma ditthi with each experience / phenomena and maintaining it through one’s experiences with samma sati and samma samadhi.To me, in short as long as avija, asava’s, vipallasa’s, defilements still remains for that satta, that is dukkha even if one is experiencing sukha (pleasurable, pleasant sensations) that is dependently originated.
“What is overcome?” Avija, asava’s, defilements, kilesa’s, anusaya’s or basically corruptions / distortions / defiled / akusala views, perceptions and thoughts.
“How?” That’s the Noble 8 Fold Path.
