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Namo Sugata
I think It was Sir Mark Twain who quipped” Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint”. (humour sirs humour..dont be too serious).
But sometimes perhaps, the opposite too happens: where misprints bring to life(certain things). This a wonderful world!
My first twist with “dukkha” in as much as I can recollect , happened when I was a small boy , while, at a railway station.
I saw a train pulling off, from its halt, and while it was at fair speed, a dog came running wildly out of nowhere, jumped on to the tracks , and kept chasing after the speeding train.
I asked those who were with me, (I cant remember who), why the dog was so fanatically running after the train, and I was told that it belonged to someone, leaving the village, perhaps an ascetic (we call them sadhuvu), who roam about villages.
I must have been around 5, and now into my forties, but the pain I felt(or saw) that day, still haunts me whenever it gets recollected.
///My parent however assures me, that the memory was an imprinted one, (I somehow made it and imprinted myself- which could also be true, now that my nuts and bolts are getting, slowly but surely, loose, towards their eventual disassembly///
Sirs, coming back to Mark Twain’s Quip, I don’t know if it was a misprint or not, however while I was going through some study , out of nowhere, I read “ It is this Viparinama-Dukkha which is sometimes felt as Sukha Vedana”!!!!
Normally, we quickly pass it through, because it was a translation (“from thai?”), and we expect that from lengthy translations. But reading it again and again, it felt true, and in line!!!
We say Sukha Vedana is (subject to) Viparinama Dukkha- this the normal course.
But here it reads that Viparinama Dukkha itself is felt as Sukha Vedana.
If we don’t get into itti-bitties, isnt this exactly about Dukkha with the Double K? I have posted one link of many, about Dukkha with a double K , from Lal Sirs essays. https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/anatta-why-the-concept-of-no-soul-could-be-as-bad-as-the-concept-of-a-soul/?highlight=dukkha
If So , …….. looking at Pleasurable Feeling as Suffering, doesn’t only involve, looking at it when it wanes and gives the opposite (viparinama), but rather right from the start, it was pain itself- Dukkha with a Double K – which was felt as sukha.! Yam kinchi atti veditam etam dukkhanti natvana- All Vedana is Dukkha.
It can be sir. (can be seen).
Sirs, It’s the dukkha with the Double K – which is felt as the 3 feelings, pleasure , pain, and the neutral gear, which directly explains, without factoring in any psychological time, or procrastination, why: Pleasure should be seen as painful , Pain as a dart , and the Neutral gear as Aniccha.
- A direct seeing , wherein, Its seen, that Dukkha with a double K, is actually felt (sukkha vipallasa) as pleasure.
- A direct Seeing where only one dart is seen in the painful feeling. The other dart removed in this clear seeing of Dukkha with a double K.
- A direct seeing where the pilana of maintenance is seen in the neutral feelings.
- A direct seeing which which also brings with it freedom ( let me invent a word- vimutti samudaya-vision and freedom generating each other)
Which bring us back to the translation: “Viparinama Dukkha is felt as Sukha Vedana”
It explains a lot of things, at-least to me, the feeling I get when I see empty and sunny streets, the feeling I get when I see restaurants with names “Happy Place”….and so on and so forth. Havent you? didint you get a sense of something is amiss in these names? something deeply wrong?
More importantly it explains the pain in seeing that dog, white in colour, running after that train. All these have a hue of Dukkha with a double K , if we are willing to see and penetrate with energy.
But more importantly , arriving at Dukkha with a double K , has (brings) a peculiar quality of awareness , a taste of freedom.
In that freedom I can see my dog now happy, balanced-running no more and its hurt resolved. My prose turns into poetry (albeit of poor quality), poetry turns into prose (albeit poor quality- but bear with me sirs).
Hope some one can correct/add/improve on it. I desire to learn more, go deeper into this Sirs. What are the technicalities involved?
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It is also important to understand the following:
“There is a difference between suffering (the feeling or vedanā) and the ability to understand the causes of it (paññā or wisdom.) The latter can lead to future suffering, and that is what the First Noble Truth explains.
- Pāli word for suffering is dukha. On the other hand, dukkha (with two “k”) is dukha + kha or the “removal of dukha” in the sense that there is dukha in the world, but it can be overcome. Thus, in most places in the Tipiṭaka, dukkha conveys “suffering” but implies that it can be overcome.
- Dukha (suffering) is the opposite of sukha (pleasure). That is in several suttās. For example, in the “Bhāra Sutta (SN 22.22)“:
“Bhārā have pañcakkhandhā,
bhārahāro ca puggalo;
Bhārādānaṃ dukhaṃ loke,
bhāranikkhepanaṃ sukhaṃ”.Translated: “The five aggregates are burdens,
The burden-carrier is the person;
Carrying the burden is suffering in the world,
Laying the burden down is blissful“.- Of course, the word dukkha appears in most suttā because that is what Buddha Dhamma is all about, i.e., the removal of suffering.”
The above is extracted from the post “Does the First Noble Truth Describe only Suffering?“
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In case Dukkha (double k) conveys suffering which can be overcome, then it fits in like a glove with the First Sacca which is about the “Future Suffering”
And therefore as Lal Sir, says: (“Does First NT Describe only suffering”): –
“birth is suffering (that can be overcome). Getting old is suffering (that can be overcome). Sickness is suffering (that can be overcome). Death is suffering (that can be overcome)..”.
Whereas I have submitted “ It is Dukkha itself is perceived as Sukham, Dukham, and the AdukhamaSukham. i.e,….(using Lal Sirs, tools, to fine tune my submission):-
This forces us to answer:
- How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha
- If so “Where” is it “Felt” or is it something which is “understood”/”wisdom”?
- Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?
Whereas, my submissions in continuation of the first post, are:
- Dukkha with a Double K, is felt as Sukha when it is serviced (one mode of concealment) well, as Dukha when cannot be further tolerated (glitch in the concealment) and as Adukhamasukha when totally concealed up by ignorance.
- It is Felt (in body and mind) and can be understood in Mind
- Yes Everything is Dukkha, without any qualifications. Dukkha with a double k- is overcome in toto(no more) by the Arahant, while Dukha of Mind which comes from Dukkha with a Double K , is overcome by others. Arahant overcomes it by Nibbana, others start to overcome it, gradually(from Dukha in Mind to Dukkha with Doible K), through vision and practise (8 fold path).
- Only When Eveything is Dukkha , that there is absolutely Nothing to Cling to. That is the vision.
Therefore , that everything is suffering (without any qualifications, either in its defintion of Dukkha or coverage) is the “Vision which starts to set free” – without any qualifications. That “this” is Dukkha is itself the Wisdom which set one, on the path to freedom.
In which case :
“birth is suffering {that is overcome by seeing RIGHT NOW (as Dukha) & that can be overcome IN FUTURE (Dukkha with a double K) } and so on and so forth with aging, sickness , death etc….
Come on sirs, I literally beg to learn more. Fine tune it more. I will feel delighted if someone corrects it. Dont be silent on this novice bhikkhu! Lord will not like it. Didint you read about Thera Cūlapanthaka? He too was good for nothing like me, when he joined the Order.
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You wrote: “This forces us to answer:
- How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha
- If so “Where” is it “Felt” or is it something which is “understood”/”wisdom”?
- Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?”
The actual origin of sukha/dukha cannot be understood until one understands “saññā.” Our perception of the world is distorted, and I call it “distorted saññā.” Most vedana are “mind-made vedana” that arise based on that “distorted saññā.” Most immoral deeds (akusala kamma) are done based on that “distorted saññā.”
- You are new to the forum and may not have read the related posts.
- I suggest reading the recommended posts in #1 of “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”
- This is a somewhat deep concept. Don’t rush into it. Take the time to read the suggested sections.
- Feel free to ask questions on this thread. When asking questions, please provide the specific post and the specific bullet numbers. That will help me understand the question better.
P.S. I know that even those who have been following the website may not have understood this point. Anyone is encouraged to ask questions. This may not be an easy concept to understand.
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– “How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha”
Dukkha to me doesn’t necessary mean just “suffering” as a (vedana). But of course I could agree to that dukkha can mean suffering (as a vedana), suffering that can be removed, unsatisfactoriness and other meanings.
Something for consideration is that from my current understanding, one should look / see / contemplate “dukkha” beyond than just vedana itself. Not taking dukkha just as vedana, but also as a characteristic, process, mechanism.
Here’s a post from PD that can help to further communicate what I’m trying to convey.
This past while, I have been trying to come up with other possible ways to contemplate, see, understand more about “dukkha”. So far what I have been able to think of to contemplate more on what dukkha could possibly mean is, “defiled / corruption / corrupted / corrupting”. What’s quite interesting to me is that some of the definitions for the word “corruption” actually could convey some of the examples that I believe to fit dukkha quite well as a characteristic / process / mechanism. Here are some examples.
The action or effect of making someone or something impure.The process by which something is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous.The act or state of worsening or making or getting worse.The characteristic of being devious or underhanded.The wrong or improper use of something.A corrupting influence that is difficult to eradicate.A false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something.A fault or flaw that compromises someone or something.An act involving dishonesty or deception.Many of these definitions resonate with me especially “A false, absurd, or distorted representation of something”.
A perfect example of this definition that relates to dukkha (for me) would be when we experience dependently originated feelings such as sukha. When a puthujjana experiences sukha, they believe that sukha comes from the outside world. It could possibly be from a “thing, object, item, person” and so on. But they don’t know, see, understand the true reality of the sukha that their experiencing or the phenomenon that they’re experiencing. So what puthujjana’s do is when they experience a pleasurable / pleasant experience, they try to maintain this experience or continuously seek experiences that can bring sukha (pleasurable, pleasant experiences) either through moral or immoral means. To me, as long as one doesn’t understand and see at that moment how that sukha vedana or any phenomenon arises, any dependently originated vedana or phenomenon is a false / distorted representation.
– Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?
It’s my believe that everything is dukkha as long as one doesn’t understand and mindfully meditate on the 4 Noble truths / samma ditthi with each experience / phenomena and maintaining it through one’s experiences with samma sati and samma samadhi.To me, in short as long as avija, asava’s, vipallasa’s, defilements still remains for that satta, that is dukkha even if one is experiencing sukha (pleasurable, pleasant sensations) that is dependently originated.
“What is overcome?” Avija, asava’s, defilements, kilesa’s, anusaya’s or basically corruptions / distortions / defiled / akusala views, perceptions and thoughts.
“How?” That’s the Noble 8 Fold Path.
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Thank you Triple Gem ,
I find it really inspiring, the work that you are putting in. My energy too is now aroused reading your post. Isnt this what is expected from these forums? I am very happy i could come across Lal Sirs Website.
Anyway , in the above posts, from my side , i was forced into contemplating a technicality , due to Lal Sirs first reply. In few words, it is this:
- Vedana We feel. Right? Sukha, Dukha or AsukhamAdukham. (The third one the elders say, is very difficult to track, and one has to track it like, tracking an animal through its foot prints)
- But obivously , studying Dhamma, we all can sense a far more deeper Dukha than that which is included in Vedana, which i call(borrowing Lal Sirs Lessons) as Dukkha with a double K.
Now the difficult question for me was , do I “feel” it? or “understand” it? ( The Deeper Dukkha?). All my answers (right or wrong) came by-themselves after going into this question. This question, subtly comes up in Lal Sirs first reply. I beg , not to consider my second reply as an option , against this question, because this question yeilds far more richer(truer) answers than i came up with. What I called as “understanding” seems to be more deeper, richer than i so carelessly thought. But this is not like a specific thread one “must” pursue. If it comes while contemplating “Dukkha” it comes. So i think.
PS: To go through , Lal Sirs references on Sanna, that is still pending form my side. I am held up on the posts on “sati”. This reply is only to thank and more imp , serve as sort of an audit trail, to understand why this question, atleast to me is important and a bit complex one.
Regards.
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Another (related) way to look at “dukkha” is to see that as long as one craves pancupadanakkhandha (i.e., perceived “pleasures” in this world, whether “sensual pleasures” or “jhanic/samapatti pleasures”), one is kept away from the “suffering-free pabhassara mind” and is not free from suffering.
1. An average human (puthujjana), unaware of Buddha’s teachings, is trapped in the birth/death Sansaric process, as shown in the bottom half of the above chart.
- Thus, a puthujjana is NEVER free of dukkha.
- In fact, since time spent in human or higher realms is relatively short, a puthujjana is subjected to suffering in the apayas most of the time.
2. Only an Ariya (at or above the Sotapanna Anugami) can progress toward uncovering the suffering-free pabhassara mind, as shown in the top half of the chart.
- Of course, that may or may not involve cultivating jhana. The above chart was compiled to show the futility of cultivating jhana without reaching the Sotapana stage.
3. It is beneficial to spend some time contemplating the chart. That could be a good Vipassana mediation session!
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I have revised the chart in my above comment to make it a bit more clear that an anariya is not “free from dukkha“ after attaining jhana or samapatti; i.e., no realm in the 31 realms within this world can provide refuge from suffering.
- Release from dukkha is possible ONLY by fully comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
- That necessarily involves Vipassana or “cultivating panna (wisdom).” That means understanding the fundamental concepts.
- That understanding starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, grows through the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, and Anagami stages, and culminates in the Arahant stage.
P.S. Understanding “distorted saññā” can help get to the Sotapanna and higher stages of Nibbana.
- See “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- The main point is that most vedana (that we attach to) are “mind-made vedana” based on “distorted saññā.“ See, for example, “ Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things” and “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)”
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