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This adds to the ideas above: Consciousness Generates Space-Time
“In a controversial 2025 paper, a researcher proposed a theory that consciousness may give rise to matter …“
Thank you, Lal! I agree with what you say. Understanding kama-sanna is an addition that helps to establish anicca-sanna.
If Sanna is fundamentally 100% distorted and even an Arahant is constantly plagued by kamasanna, how can one become aware of the true nature? If we contact the world with our five senses, it will always fool us. People could also take the view that everything is illusion or simulation (natthi ayaṃ loko), so it doesn’t matter whether they purify their mind or not. Ultimately, the only remaining possibility is to develop wisdom and to realize the fruitlessness of existence (anatta).
Thanks for the explanation! After thinking about it I have a few points to be clarified:
You say: “Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.”
–> This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities? Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?
–> I completely agree with you when you say that the mind, through kama sanna, presents the outer world as “mirage”, adapted to the plane of existence. The ancient yogis were ignorant of the true nature of this world; that is, they were not aware of the Four Noble Truths. Therefore, the anicca-nature was unknown to them, and they maintained nicca sanna.
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There is still a contradiction in your description of the first stage of Ānāpānasati or to become a Sotapanna. See #2 in First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’:
- The first phase involves “seeing the anicca (unfruitful) nature of attaching to the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya to attain the Sotapanna stage. This step is only mentioned briefly in “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).” We will discuss this first stage in detail in this post.
- In this stage, one focuses on the whole pañcupādānakkhandha kāya and how it is initiated. One must ‘see with wisdom’ that each time the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya is initiated, one’s mind moves away from Nibbāna. This is easily in the charts that we will discuss below.
- Ānāpāna is āna āpāna.In this stage, ‘āna‘ is to “take in/comprehend that the world (pañcupādānakkhandha) is fruitless or of anicca nature“, and ‘āpāna‘ is to “discard the wrong view that the pañcupādānakkhandha is beneficial or of nicca nature.”
vs. your reply above:
- Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost.
- That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
- Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).
–> I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.
We can stay with discussion No. (ii).
I don’t care about Darwin’s theory either and how life evolved. What is the connection between anicca and mind-made colors? Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.
Color-recognition is required to live a pleasureable life or life at all. Paticca Samuppada is the process to maintain samsara and hence bhava/jati. The six sense fields are established to enable contact/recognition and that in a way that bhava is supported and extended into the future via new kamma. Thus, our desire for contact and experience is baked into the ayatana, and this manifests as sanna vipallasa.
Hello Lal, here my reply:
“Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?”
–> I take the fact seriously and I think that the eye sense receives electromagnetic waves which are in fact special types of rupa with a wave function. Our perception is an optimized illusion/deception about a much deeper, more unified reality. The mind builds a useful “user interface” optimized for our survival. Colors, smells, tastes, the sense of time, the solidity of objects—none of these exist “out there” in that form. They are emergent perceptual constructs.
Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.
Colors are inherent in external things:
The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.Colors are purely mind-made:
The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature, because one might still not be able to possess this thing, or at least not permanently, in the way one desires (anicca). Even the desired color can eventually become truly irritating (dukkha). Therefore, in my opinion, the difference lies only in the slightly lower perceived value when color is purely mind-made.
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“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”
- To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).
–> I disagree. One can also understand the anicca nature of the world by understanding the adinava and viparinama of each sankata, thus grasping the tilakkhana at a basic level. This is sufficient for the sotapanna stage. Only after that does a sotapanna look at deeper aspects, such as the recognition of purana/nava kamma. Actually, it is this aspect that has continued to occupy me: although I understand the Buddha Dhamma quite well, I still indulge in small desires, such as good food. This is due to sanna vipallasa/kama sana in combination with purana/nava kamma and unbroken samyojana/gati. Your series of texts on this topic has helped me a lot. Thank you so much!
Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.
Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature? After all, the things of the world can be whatever they want; if one cannot permanently obtain what one wants, dukkha arises, and thus existence is pointless. Then it also doesn’t matter whether colors come from things or are mind-made. Furthermore, I wonder where the Buddha says that colors are merely mind-made and that this is a problem.
Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).
regarding the sentence: “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!” Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK?
I have a question or a request for advice. Although I understand purana and nava kamma, I also understand that kama sanna is deceiving me, I notice the purana kamma stage while it is happening, but I still follow sensual pleasures out of boredom. How can I stop this?
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Hallo Lal, can you explain the specific meaning of “me atta” in this sutta?
“Nanu tvaṁ, aggivessana, evaṁ vadesi:‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti?I have a question regarding the meaning of the sutta.
The Buddha says:
“Nanu tvaṁ, aggivessana, evaṁ vadesi:‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti?
What is the meaning “… me attā“? The translation says “… my self”. If it can be translated as “my self”, one can assume the Buddha’s suggestive question about a self in it. But I rather think that the question of control over the five heaps is being asked here.
The Buddha also says:
‘vedanā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ vedanāyaṁ vaso – evaṁ me vedanā hotu, evaṁ me vedanā mā ahosī”ti?
“…do you have power over that feeling to say: ‘May my feeling be like this! May it not be like that’?”
Thus the question of this sutta is not, if a person exists, but rather if one has control over the pancakkhandha.
——————————I also see a discrepancy between
Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi #1 and #2“etaṁ mama, esohamasmi (eso aham asmi), eso me attā’ti samanupassati”
…However, as discussed below, it means ‘This is mine, I am (some of) this, this is for my benefit.’
vs. Sakkāya Diṭṭhi – “Me and Mine” View #9
“Yaṃ panāniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ, kallaṃ nu taṃ samanupassituṃ: ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?…“If something cannot be maintained to one’s liking, leads to suffering, and is subject to unexpected changes, is it wise to regard that as: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self or identity’?”
What is the meaning of “… me attā’ti”?
Dear Lal, I fully agree. I just say that kama sanna is an automatic process but not a PS. Kama sanna is a result of previous kamma and previous PS leading to bhava –> jati.
Please see reply #55897.
- We will not be able to see any objects without them ‘having colors.’ However, the objects in the world do not have inherent colors. The ‘color perception’ is mind-made via Paticca Samuppada.
Color perception is part of kama sanna, right? The Arahant also has kama sanna (but does not attach to it). The Arahant does not operate on PS anymore. Thus, color perception can not be generated by PS. Also, kama sanna comes before the PS-step avijja paccaya sankhara.
On the other hand, bhava, jati, and kaya are mind-made by PS. Is that what you intend to say?Thus, the verse from @maker 2.11 in the Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta is intended from the perspective of a Paṭisotagāmi.
If one is aware of the sequence above, one can train the mind to recognize purana and nava kaya as it happens. One then sees through the “magic trick”. Of course, all this only makes sense after one has attained sotapatti. In addition, a good understanding of abhidhamma is very helpful.
For example, I can perceive that the PS step “vedana paccaya tanha” is being reached and that the mind is virtually forced to move on to upadana. Then I practice preventing that progression. Sometimes it works, sometimes I still go with the flow.
Can you explain the word components of ‘upādāya‘ and ‘upādāna‘? The “upā”-part is in both words.
The other question is, how could the disciples figure out or put together the Abhidhamma theory 200 years after the Buddha’s passing? I would think a Buddha is needed to see and explain all those details.
Please take a look at the #2 in the sutta:
But the single mass of water at that time was utterly dark.
The moon and sun were not found, nor were stars and constellations, day and night, months and fortnights, years and seasons, or male and female. Beings were simply known as ‘beings’.
After a very long period had passed, the earth’s nectar curdled in the water.
Why were stars, moon and sun not there? Day and night also not there? It does not make sense to me.
