[sybe07]

sorry…i said…”fire like you see in your post Lal”…this must be….”fire as you say in your post Lal.

You often refer to this fire.

siebe

[sybe07]

For myself i have seen sakkaya ditthi is indeed the first main imperfection to be removed on the Path (Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Knowledge, §355-358, Nanamoli).

I belief, sakkaya ditthi refers to attachment due to (wrong) identity view.

The mind becomes attached to the perception of a gross body, to feelings, to other perceptions, to mental formations and things like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching due to the deeply ingrained (unaware operating) habit to see/view (and therefor experience) those phenomena as ‘who i am’, or as ‘mine’.

In short: mind gets attached through the proces of mine-making and full identifation with what is being experienced. The moment the body, for example, is seen (and therefor experienced) as ‘mine’ an identity view is created. This is true for all the khandha’s. Full identification with the khandha’s or seeing them as ‘mine’, is indeed the formation of an identity view.

That’s why the Buddha says: “this is not mine, not who i am, not myself’, refering to the khandha’s. To counteract this deeply ingrained habit of sakkaya ditthi, of grasping those khandha’s as ‘mine’ or ‘who i am.

This is attachment due to viewing. Forming such identity views is a habit.
One does not do this consciously or deliberatly but it is going for many many lives.

As long as there is the habit to see (and therefor experience) this body, these feelings, these perceptions, these mental formations and consciousnesses as ‘who i am’ or as ‘mine’, mind is hooked to it due to viewing. There cannot be any stress-release this way.

I do not agree stress-release comes with staying away from dasa akusala. That is not my own experience. As long as there is sakkaya ditthi, and one identifies with khandha’s or views them as ‘mine’, there is stress, fire like you see in your post Lal.

So it all begins here, with removing sakkaya ditthi, with this deeply ingrained habit of seeing/viewing those khandha’s as mine or as who i am. Sakkaya ditthi refers also to other self-views but i belief these are the most common.

My own experience is that one starts to see sakkaya ditthi actually operating when one experiences during meditation certains cessations, such as the cessation of thoughts, of volitional activity, or maybe, for example, the cessation of the perception of a gross physical body or breath.

While one experiences such things one can see sakkaya ditthi. For example, one is used to experience a gross phyiscal body and when this perception ends, fear arises. This is because one for many many lives has lived with the idea…”i am this perception of a gross body’. So one feels like one looses control. One experiences it like oneself is gone when the perception of a gross body is gone! As if one looses oneself!

This is exactly the effect of sakkaya ditthi.

With sakkaya ditthi it is not possible to attain Nibbana. Why? Because one cannot let go. One is afraid to let go, because one is identified with certain experiences such as feelings, certain perceptions, mental formations, consciousness etc. Therefor mind reacts with fear on cessation.

Siebe

[sybe07]

at the end of this discussion i have made some conclusions:

The important role of views is often ignored or not given enough attention. Kamma is instigated by certain views, is related to views, determined by views, coloured by views.

Those views (good or wrong), they play a key-role in the outcomings. They make the difference in manifesting suffering/happiness, health/sickness, wealth/poverty etc). See, AN1.314 and 1.315.

So to treat all those results we can see (like suffering/happiness and sickness/heath etc) like they all arise because of kamma alone, is not complete. It is just a part of what really happens. We must not forget the role of views.

For example; our view of becoming happy instigate our intentions and deeds. We might have the view: ‘sense pleasures provide me with happiness’. From that view and associated intentions and deeds, arise results. Maybe one eats to much, drinks to much and gets ill. We might conclude…due to bad kamma! I belief it is more truthful to conclude, due to wrong view. Or, even better, we must see the total picture and then we see how this misfortune arose.

If one sees that results like suffering/happiness, wealth and poverty, health and sickness are strongly related to certain views, then, i belief, we are really dealing with things as they are.

The moralist in us prefers to see kamma as the root cause of everything wished for of not wished for. The wise in us prefers to talk about bad and right views.

Siebe,

[sybe07]

Sakkaya ditthi is very practical.

See, for example, how certain people fully identify with a youthful face. They cannot bear the fact it is getting older. They want it to stay the same. Why? Because they hold on to this identity-view: ‘i am that (a) youthful face’.

Or, think about identification with health. This is dramatic too. I have this to much. One cannot bear becoming ill and bear decreasing abilities when
one identifies with health and youth. One may even loose all self-respect because one lives with the identity-view…’i am healthy, health is mine’.

One can also identify with race, profession, sex, religion, etc. ‘I am a buddhist’, this is sakkaya ditthi.

If you think you are a very learned man (sakkaya dithhi) and someone treats you as a normal human being…oh…anger will arise.

Still more furious you will become when you think ‘ i am wise’ and another person does not give you the respect.

Or think about someone who thinks…’those (bad) habits (being cruel or unfriendly) are mine, they are who i am’..(very common) …how would such a person let go of such bad habits?

One can see how sakkaya ditthi is, as it were, the tendency to freeze reality, to solidify reality by creating certain self-views and to hold them to be truthful. To hold them for who you really are.

Sakkaya ditthi does not refer to full aware operating identity views but often thoses views operate unaware and habitually. The moment one stand for a mirror they immediately operate and delude the mind with ideas like: ‘i am that body’, or ‘that body is mine’. The moment you walk in the office you are changing. An identity-view takes over. The moment i meet my neighbour i myself become ‘a neighbour’. The moment i see a nice woman i change. I step in an identity-view, or better, sakkaya ditthi takes me.

Sakkaya ditthi is like stepping into a dream-state. Stepping into a movie-like life, with you yourself as actor.

Johnny_Lim says:
“But on the other hand, we also cannot say the 5 khandhas are not ours. Thoughts, views, feelings…etc are clearly residing within our own domain and not in another person”.

To belief the body is mine, i first have to belief there is an I apart from the body. To belief feelings are mine, i first have to belief there is an I apart from feelings etc. The Buddha says there isn’t such an seperate entity-I. There is no car apart from it wheels, chassis etc. There is no I apart from the khandha’s. So, when there is no I there can be a possessor of a body, feeling etc.

An arahant seems to know this for sure.

Siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks for your answers. I have no comment. I just wanna share the way it lives for me:

When in mediation thoughts (inner dialoque) can end, then i do surely not end, right? So, it is really true that i am not these thoughts. If during meditation all mental defilements end, (temporary) i surely do not end. So, as it actually is, i am not those mental defilements. If during meditation all gross volitional activity would end, such as plans and intentions, tendencies, i surely do not end. etc.

So how far can this proces of cessation go on? When do i dissappear? Does there come any moment?

In my opinion the Buddha discovered that mind can, in this very life, become completely free of whatever it normally perceives or experieces, such as thoughts, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness (seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing a body etc) and stil one does not end. One is not death, nor unconscious. It can all end and still we (mind) does not end.

So, i belief that’s why the Buddha teaches that, as it actually is, that we are not the khandha’s. It is not who we are, not our real self.

Oke, our daily self-views are based upon those khandha’s, sakkaya ditthi, but this is a wrong perception ourself. But it is a strong habit to belief things like ‘ i am the body, or ‘i am those plans’ or ‘those intentions or feeling are mine’ etc. The sutta’s describe such views as sakkaya ditthi.

So, i belief we can actually get the understanding that we are not the khandha’s, by experience.

Then one knows for sure: i do not need those to exist. Those are just mirror-images, not me, not mine, nor myself.

The key is…in daily life we are protection a false identity. And our daily habit to safeguard ourself is also based on that false identity-view.

A sotapanna feels safe, because he/she has seen her/his true face. No agression is needed anymore to safeguard oneself, no greed, no identification. One lets go. One does not face other people anymore in a certain identity-role. One has lost all defence. Siebe does not meet other people anymore as Siebe. Empty of self-views he/she is not defensive anymore.

This whole psychological proces of safeguarding oneself vanishes gradually. An arahant has eliminated it.

Breath-mediation is about calming mind en body which facilitates cessation and letting go. To experience cessation one has to be brave and wise. Brave because one looses known structures, one looses grip and mind does not like that.

I feel this is the real challenge we have to deal with. This cannot be learned from books. Gradually we have to become more and more brave and wise in letting go.

Siebe

[sybe07]

Lal, in the above post you express- at least that’s how i read it- sakkaya ditthi is about values (is there anything worthwile to be called ‘mine’etc. )

My impression from reading the sutta’s: sakkaya ditthi does not deal with values. It deals with really seeing that all those identity-views which control in daily life our thoughts, emotions, deeds, are really, as it actually is, wrong identity-views.

Siebe

[sybe07]

What we experience is probably a netto result, like you teach in your post on vinnana(khandha) Lal. It is sloppy, in some way careless.

Seen from our sloppy netto experience sati seems to go together with, for example, issa and dosa. From that perspective i wrote the reply.

siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal.

I notice that i still stumble on that sentence “in this existence, we are humans”.

I know it is not described that way in the sutta’s, but i belief the view “i am a human’ is a sakkaya ditthi. It is a view related to the five khandha’s, for example…i am a human… because i have a human-specific body or .. i am a human… because i have human-specific mental formations or perceptions. All those views relating to khandha’s seem to be sakkaya ditthi. That’s why i belief ‘i am a human’ can be seen as a sakkaya ditthi.

Siebe

[sybe07]

I am not sure if is true that, with sati present (a sobhana cetasika), mind really defiles when, for example, issa (a asobhana cetasika) would arise. If sati is really firm established, i belief, it is possible that mind does not really defile, in the sense, it does not really become jalous when issa arises.

Unless one graspes at arising defilements, and gets involved in them by way of identification, attached to them, i belief arising defilements do not have to defile mind. If one looks at those arising mental phenomena with wisdom (‘this is not mine, not who i am, not myself’) then mind does not defile.

Siebe

[sybe07]

Hi Lal,

In the sutta’s the Buddha advises the khandha’s, ofcourse also the vinnanakhandha, to see, with correct wisdom, like this: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.’ (for example: https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.17)

What does this mean? How to understand this?

Do you belief the Buddha did possess some kind of knowledge (wisdom) of which he really was, some kind of true identity-view, from which he really knew…i am not the khandha’s nor are they mine and myself?

Or, do you belief that the instruction ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself’, is only a skillful means, not meant as an expression of truth, just an instruction which is helpfull to detach?

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal, so ‘a stream of consciousness’ is not even mentioned in the text ?

sorry…but What a mess.

siebe

[sybe07]

Hi Vince, do you agree that the sutta’s, in general, also suggests that it IS possible to generate good intentions, good verbal deeds, good deeds based upon on a bad view? In other words, is it possible that moral kamma can spring from a bad view?

I tend to ‘yes’.

For example, i think a lot of people will think they are helpful in given other people enjoyment, sense-pleasures, theater, concerts. They belief it is very good because people for a moment forget their troubles and have a really good time. They do not suffer. The musicians, theaterfolk, etc are convinced that they are truly doing something good. I belief, it is not right to say that their intentions are immoral or bad, i would Judge they are good, but their view is troublesome, maybe even bad, because, in the end it is not really helpful.

But is it possible that good kamma is instigated upon bad view? I belief Lal says definitely “No” (see reply 2 januari) but i am not sure that is the case.

kind regards
Siebe

[sybe07]

I am glad you posted Vince. It makes sense to me.

Regarding your question:

I learned that the main difference between any Ariya and an arahant is described, for example, here:

…”So too, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, still, in relation to the five aggregates subject to clinging, there lingers in him a residual conceit ‘I am,’ a desire ‘I am,’ an underlying tendency ‘I am’ that has not yet been uprooted”.

But…

…”As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit ‘I am,’ the desire ‘I am,’ the underlying tendency ‘I am’ that had not yet been uprooted—this comes to be uprooted.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.89

The last is the arahantstage.

In my own words (please correct my if they are wrong): due to a strong habit in contact with ‘the world’ there arises in us constantly the conceit that there is a subject, an “I” who sees, feels, thinks, lives, plans, will die etc. This habit is stronger then the arising of hate and greed in contact with ‘the world’. It is all-pervading and, though, not Always present, it arises much more easy then hate and greed.

Near almost every experiences of us are coloured with the belief “I am”. This is conventionally called ‘subjectivity’. People who do not take everything so personal are much more stabel, happy, wise.

If pain would arise in us, probably, there would arise dosa too, as a habit, but also the conceit that an “I” feels the pain or has to bear the pain. This last is an even more stronger habit.

An arahant does not seem to have this anymore. The uprooting of the conceit “I am” was according to the Buddha the ultimate bliss.

“There is happiness and detachment for the one who is satisfied,
who has heard the Dhamma, and who sees,
There is happiness for him who is free from ill-will in the world,
who is restrained towards breathing beings.

“The state of dispassion in the world is happiness,
the complete transcending of sense desires,
But for he who has removed the conceit ‘I am’—
this is indeed the highest happiness.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/ud2.1

Siebe

[sybe07]

in the above links provided by SengKiat i can see that vinnanasotam is mentioned in §1.5. Probably that are the lines.

siebe

[sybe07]

I cannot read Pali. I read the English translation of Walshe. In that those sentences are mentioned in DN28§7. Maybe it is helpful if i post the complete §7? Here is is:

7. ‘Also unsurpassed is the Blessed Lord’s way of teaching Dharnma in regard to the attainment of in four ways. Here, some ascetic or Brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, vigilance and due attention, reaches such
a level of concentration that he considers just this body -upwards from the soles of the feet and downwards from the crown of the head, enclosed by the skin and full of manifold impurities: “In this body there are head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys,
heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, mesentery, bowels, stomach, excrement, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, tallow, saliva, snot, synovic fluid, urine.” (as Sutta 22, verse5) That is the first attainment of vision. Again, having done this and gone further, he contemplates the bones covered with skin, flesh and blood. This is the second attainment. Again,having done this and gone further, he comes to know the unbroken stream of human consciousness as established both in this world and in the next.That is the third attainment. Again, having done this and gone still further, he comes to
know the unbroken stream of human consciousness that is not established either in this world or in the next.866 That is the fourth attainment of vision. This is the unsurpassed teaching in regard to the attainments of vision.. .

according note 866 (walshe) this last stream refers to the arahant

If you read about this stream of consciousnes, according not 865, it refers to vinnana-sota, a rare expression in the sutta’s according Walshe. So if you see vinnana-sota that is probably the location, Lal.

Siebe

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