[sybe07]

Hi Lal,

In the English translation of Bodhi it refers to MN44§7+8:

copy §7

(PERSONALITY VIEW)
7. “Lady, how does personality view come to be?” “Here, friend Visakha, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as
self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in
self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self, or self
as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.
He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception,
or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards formations
as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations
as in self, or self as in formations. He regards consciousness as
self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self or self as in consciousness”

In MN Introduction page 28 Bodhi shows he has translated sakkaya ditthi in MN as ‘personality view’.

I have understood, but maybe wrong?, that the above are 20 kinds of sakkaya ditthi, or identity view or personality view. It is also called embodiment view: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn44

These views are also mentioned in, for example, SN22.1 (and others)
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.1

There it becomes clear how those identity-views cause mental suffering.

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

“Most people (including most scientists) today believe that one’s body is one’s “self”, i.e., rupakkhandha to be “self”. That is the hardest one to get rid of first and is removed only at the Anagami stage, NOT at the Sotapanna stage”. (Lal)

I learned from MN44 that viewing the body as one’s self is a sakkaya ditthi. Why is this kind of viewing not removed at sotapanna stage?

May we all realise sotapanna stage,

Siebe

[sybe07]

Interesting to read. I do not know this state.

Is it correct that in nirodha samapatti there is no sense or perception of a body too?

Is being in nirodha samapatti not the ultimate proof that we are not the body we experience, not the experienced feelings, the perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses? Does one, who knows nirodha samapatti, not be without any doubt he/she is not the khandha’s?

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

I agree. When i once read such passages in the sutta’s the thought arose: ‘pain is impermanent’, how can this impermanence be suffering? We may be glad pain it is of the nature of impermanence, that’s a big relief. It would be really awful if pain would be permanent. This is also true for craving and for avajji. Just because they are impermanent there is a possible ending. So it is not logical to conclude that what is impermanent is suffering.

But i have always seen that these contemplations on impermanance, suffering and not-self, also when translated that way in the sutta’s, are meant to cause a kind of disillusion with form, with feeling, with perceptions, with mental formations and with consciousness, i.e. the conditioned.

How this works is, for example, mentioned in the three sutta’s SN22.12 -14 (from the translation of Bodhi)

I summon the three sutta’s:

Seeing thus (the khandha’s as impermanent, suffering and not-self) bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.”‘

I do not know the word ‘revulsion’ is correct translation. I think the goal is disillusion, seeing that all this obsession with the conditioned is of no help at all. Whatever conditioned state, it cannot be a refuge.
This is why the Budddha was not satisfied with the high jhana’s his teacher felt as liberation. It was quit clear the Budddha would never be satisfied with some conditionally arising state. He was looking for the unconditioned.
His goal is that we do that too. So any kind of longing for the conditioned is in the core a distraction to the real Path of the Unconditioned.

Anyway it is quit clear that those three contemplations have to lead to a more dispassionate mind. We have to see the unfruitfullness, the helplessness of investing in the conditioned.

I feel the emphasis in the training with those three contemplations is, especially to apply them to our own experiences of a body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses.

Our attitude towards experiences has to change, beginning by the ending of full identification and mine-making.

This mechanism is explained in SN22.1

…”He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am form, form is mine. As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair”…this also for the other khandha’s.

I belief this is true. We will never be freed from this mental suffering
when our attitude towards what we experience does not change. How? I belief, it has to become less personal. The first major step in a decreasing personal involvement with what we experience is the elimination of sakkaya ditthi, i.e. viewing experiences as mine or who i am. But this goes on and on in the training and at the end we loose this personal coloured involvement with experiences totally because even the sense of I am ends. Then, in the seen there is only the seen, so no sense of an I-who-sees. In the felt, there is only the felt, so no an I-who-feels, etc.

This is how i think it is described in the sutta’s.

Siebe

[sybe07]

“Most people (including most scientists) today believe that one’s body is one’s “self”, i.e., rupakkhandha to be “self”. That is the hardest one to get rid of first and is removed only at the Anagami stage, NOT at the Sotapanna stage”. (Lal)

I do not understand this Lal. In MN44 sakkaya ditthi is explained:

…’he/she regards material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form”.

The same for the other khandha’s. In many sutta’s this is repeated. This viewing, sakkaya ditthi, comes with a lot of mental suffering.

How is explained in SN22.1. A fragment:

“How, householder, is one afflicted in body and afflicted in mind? Here, householder, the uninstructed worldling: who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in
form. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am form, form is mine. As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair”.

The same is said for feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

I know this is very true. It works this way. So, these identity-views cause really affliction in mind, distress, sorrow, despair, fear also. What the sutta’s say is that this is not going on anymore for a nobel person. He/she has this cause for mental suffering, sakkaya ditthi, eliminated.

To see/view “rupakhandha as self” is an example of a sakkaya ditthi. And also the view that a self or me posseses material form is a sakkaya ditthi.
All sakkaya ditthi is eliminated at sotapanna stage.

So, i do not understand why viewing the body as yourself or ‘me’ and viewing the body as ‘mine’ are not sakkaya ditthi’s removed at Sotapanna stage but at Anagami stage.

(What is your reference for this? Is this from a desana of your teacher?)

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

I think, the common base of the three contemplations on anicca, dukkha and anatta is that they all three, in their own way, deal with a app/depreciation proces (a getting wiser proces). Due to these three contemplations one starts to see more and more clear what is really fruitful, i.e. what is really in ones own interest and what is not. Each in their own way.

All three kinds of contemplations are meant, do you agree Lal??, to turn the mind away from it’s usual longing and craving for the conditioned.

I do not think the sutta’s instruct that one must first use anicca and then dukkha and then anatta. What is your opinion on this Lal?

It seems like the sutta’s teach (Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Liberations, §54-58) that people have a natural preference for some kind of contemplation dependend on their gati and abilities.

People with great determination have a dominant faith faculty and they have a preference for anicca contemplation.
People with great natural calm have a dominant concentration faculty and they have a natural preference for dukkha contemplation.
People with natural great wisdom have a dominant wisdom faculty and they tend to contemplate on anatta or voidness.

But i think the common base is seeing the unfruitfulness in grasping, in craving, in the desire and forming of the conditioned. I remember a sutta that this is also said of the jhana’s. Someone who really sees that they are conditioned states, gets a sense of the unfruitfulness of pursuing such temporary states. In fact this is true for all conditioned states, right?

In this we can see, i belief, the Buddha-Dhamma in the core aims at letting go, at giving up, not striving, not accumulating, not constructing, not producing, not forming, because it cannot be of real help.

I feel this is some kind of stress field with all those sutta’s which keep going on about the worth of accumulating, constructing, producing, forming of all kinds of states, thoughts etc.

siebe

[sybe07]

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.89

SN22.89 deals with two kinds of identity-views. The first is summoned as ‘this i am’, for example, ‘this body i am’. And the other identity view is still deeper and is summoned as ‘I am’. The sutta describes how both are progressively removed on the Path.

It think Bodhi’s comment is interesting (great part of note 176)

(…) “This passage clarifies the essential difference between the sekha and the arahant. While the sekha has eliminated identity view and thus no longer identifies any of the five aggregates as a self, he has not yet eradicated ignorance, which sustains a residual conceit and desire “I am” (anusaha-gato
asmi ti mano asmi ti chando) in relation to the five aggregates. The arahant, in contrast, has eradicated ignorance, the root of all misconceptions, and thus no longer entertains any ideas of “I” and “mine.” The other elders apparently had not yet attained any stage of awakening and thus did not understand this difference, but the Venerable Khemaka must have been at least a stream-enterer [Spk-pf: some hold he was a nonretumer, others a once-retumer] and thus knew that the elimination of identity view does not completely remove the sense of personal identity. Even
for the nonreturner, an “odour of subjectivity” based on the five aggregates still lingers over his experience”.

This “odour of subjectivity” regarding whatever we experience is in essence the cause of all misconceptions and therefor suffering. It will be eliminated too. The sutta makes clear how.

I also wanted to share this view with you and ask for your comment.

Why is mind, or why are we, not the experienced body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses? I belief, the Buddha had seen (experienced) that all such arising experiences, can end/cease, and still mind, one, does not die or end. So that must mean we are not that experienced body, feeling etc. In other words, the mirror of the mind is not its reflections. It exist also without. Not knowing this, not seeing this, means sakkaya ditthi does not become uprooted. Mind will stay under the influence of this habit to relate to what it experiences as ‘mine’ or as ‘who i am’. This seems to be going on since beginningless time.

Therefor, i belief, it NOT some strategy to see those khandha’s as ‘not mine, not as who i am, not as myself’, but, it is how things really are.

Anyway, may we all realise sotapanna stage!

Siebe

[sybe07]

Benefits of becoming a Sotapanna

-With the complete destruction of the three lower fetters; sakkaya ditthi, doubt and wrong grasp of rituals and rules (sometimes also translated as attachment to rules and rituals) the Sotapanna is no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. This person is freed from hell, the animal realm, and the domain of ghosts, freed from the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. (SN5511+24+30, DN16§2.7, DN18§27 and many other places)

-A lot of suffering is eliminated by not being reborn in planes of misery and for a maximum of 7 times. The soil taken up with a fingernail is compared to the soil of the whole Earth futile. So it is with the suffering that remains for the Sotapanna after eliminating the three lower fetter. (SN13.1)

-The confirmed convidence in the Triple Gem and the virtues of the Sotapanna are four streams of merit, streams of the wholesome, nutriments of happiness (SN55.31 SN55.41-43). These four lead to the destruction of the asava’s. (SN55.38)

-If reborn in heaven or as a human, a Sotapanna has a long life span, will be beautiful, will be endowed with happiness, endowed with fame, endowed with sovereignty. (SN55.22)

-Anguttara Nikāya 6.97 summons six benefits: (1) One is fixed in the good Dhamma; (2) one is incapable of decline; (3) one’s suffering is delimited; (4) one comes to possess knowledge not shared by others; (5) one has clearly seen causation; (6) one has clearly seen causally
arisen phenomena.

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Hallo C. Saket,

Yes, read your post with interest.

I belief, the sutta’s transmitt that the sotapanna stage can be realised by applying the contemplation of anicca, dukkha and anatta to the khandha’s subject to clinging (SN22.122).

In the patisambhidamagga (treatise on insight, §9, this is said: contemplate on the khandha’s: as impermanent, as painful, as a disease, as a boil, as a dart, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as a plague, a disaster, a terror, a menace, as fickle, perishable, unenduring, as no protection, no shelter, no refuge, as empty, vain, void, not-self, as a danger, as subject to change, as having no core, as the root of calamity, as murderous, as duet o be annihilated, as subject to cankers, as formed, as Mara’s bait, as connected with the idea of birth, as connected with the idea of aging, as connected with the idea of ailment, as connected with the idea of death, as connected with the idea of sorrow, as connected with the idea of lamentation, as connected tot he idea of despair, as connected with the idea of defilement.

What is the contemplation of anicca, dukka and anatta?

Contemplation of dukkha

as painful is contemplation of dukkha
as disease is contemplation of dukkha
as a boil is contemplation of dukkha
as a dart is is contemplation of dukkha
as a calamity is contemplation of dukkha
as an affliction is contemplation of dukkha
as a plague is contemplation of dukkha
as a disaster is contemplation of dukkha
as a terror is contemplation of dukkha
as a menace is contemplation of dukkha
as no protection is contemplation of dukkha
as no shelter is contemplation of dukkha
as no refuge is contemplation of dukkha
as a danger is contemplation of dukkha
as the root of calamity is contemplation of dukkha
as murderous is contemplation of dukkha
as subject to cankers is contemplation of dukkha
as Mara’s materialistic bait is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of birth is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of aging is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of ailment is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of sorrow is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of lamentation is contemplation of dukkha
as connected tot he idea of despair is contemplation of dukkha
as connected with the idea of defilement is contemplation of dukkha

Contemplation of anicca

As impermanent is contemplation of anicca
As disintegrating is contemplation of anicca
As fickle is contemplation of anicca
As perishable is contemplation of anicca
As unenduring is contemplation of anicca
As subject to change is contemplation of anicca
As having no core is is contemplation of anicca
As due to be annihilated is contemplation of anicca
As formed is contemplation of anicca
As connected with the idea of death is contemplation of anicca

Contemplation of anatta (=sunnatanupassana)

As alien is contemplation of anatta
As empty is contemplation of anatta
As void is contemplation of anatta
As not-self is contemplation of anatta

In some way or the other those insight-meditations have to lead to disenchantment, to disillusion with the conditioned.

A lot of sutta’s emphasize this turning of the mind. If one really understands anicca, dukkha and anatta, one will loose the usual interest in the conditioned. This leads to three gateways of liberation, the emptiness, the signless and desireless. The door opens as it were.

I myself belief this itself is, however, not sotapanna stage. Maybe this loss of interest can be felt as cooling down, as some kind of happiness, because one really becomes less obsessed and less dreamy, more realistic, i feel this cannot be called sotapanna stage yet.

It is a preparation-stage for sotapanna and it can culiminate into sotapanna stage when the three fetters are really eliminated.

may we all realise sotapanna stage.

Siebe

[sybe07]

“There is happiness and detachment for the one who is satisfied,
who has heard the Dhamma, and who sees,
There is happiness for him who is free from ill-will in the world,
who is restrained towards breathing beings.

“The state of dispassion in the world is happiness,
the complete transcending of sense desires,
But for he who has removed the conceit ‘I am’—
this is indeed the highest happiness.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/ud2.1

The removal of the conceit “I am” is also the topic of SN22.89. An arahant has removed this desire this underlying tendency and conceit “I am”. https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.89

Siebe

[sybe07]

Becoming a Sotapanna

(sutta numbers refer to DN translation Walshe, rest Nikāya translations of Bodhi)

-Four important conditions are described; association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention (see further), practice in accordance with the Dhamma (SN55.50, DN33§1.11(13)). When developed and cultivated they lead to stream-entrance (SN55.55) and they also lead to once return, no more return and arahanthood (SN55.56-58)

-“If a bhikkhu should wish: ‘May I, with the destruction of three fetters, become a stream-enterer, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment, let him fulfil the precepts.. (MN6§11). This is also said for the other stages.
I do not think this means that one will become a stream-enterer just by fulfilling the precepts.

-One has to attend carefully to the five khandha’s subject to clinging. How? As suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself….When, friend, a virtuous bhikkhu carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of stream-entry.” (SN22.122). In this way one can also realise the other three fruits of the holy life.

This way of seeing the khandha’s subject to clinging is applying anicca, dukkha and anatta to the khandha’s. Seeing the khandha’s as alien, empty and nonself is called anattanupassana and also sunnatanupassana. As suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction is dukkhanupassana. As disintegrating is aniccanupassana. In Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Insight, §9, Nanamoli, this is explained.

I personally think this is the main thing. I am curious what others think. I belief applying anicca, dukkha and anatta to our own experiences counteracts sakkaya ditthi, the deeply inbedded tendency to see or view (and therefor experience) the experienced body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses as ‘mine’ and as ‘who i am’, ‘as my self’.
Because we are so identified with the khandha’s or strongly experience them as ‘mine’, any change of them leads to stress. When not identified with the body, feeling etc and not seeing or experiencing them a ‘mine’, there is no stress when they change, which is their nature. Mind is like a mirror. It reflects all kinds of experiences. But if minded is deluded it thinks it IS those reflections or it thinks that the mirror possseses them.

-“Bhikkhus, one thing, when developed and cultivated, leads to realization of the fruit of stream-entry… (597) to realization of the fruit of once-returning… (598) to realization of the fruit of non-returning (599) to realization of the fruit of arahantship. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body. This is the one thing that, when developed and cultivated, leads to realization of the fruit of stream-entry… to realization of the fruit of once-returning…to realization of the fruit of non-returning… to realization of the fruit of arahantship.” (AN1.596 (22)-599(25))

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal for the answer. I read something about transgressing trainingsrules in AN3.86. And it also says something about the abilities of a sotapanna (fullfilling virtious behaviour but not yet concencentration and wisdom).

“Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu fulfills virtuous behavior, but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. He falls into offenses in regard to the lesser and minor training rules and rehabilitates himself. For what reason? Because I have not said that he is incapable of this.But in regard to those training rules that are fundamental to the spiritual life,
in conformity with the spiritual life, his behavior is constant and steadfast. Having undertaken the training rules, he trains
in them. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a
stream~enterer> no longer subject to [rebirth in] the lower world,
fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination”.

Unfortunately the notes in the text do not list those lesser and minor trainingsrules which all trainees can transgress, and also not those rules that are fundamental to the spirituel live, but my feeling is, not-killing could be such a rule? Maybe some body else knows more about this.

siebe

[sybe07]

Shocking to read your translation Lal. Again it is totally different. In your translation ‘the danger’ is not even mentioned.

But i understand you think ‘seeing the danger’ in those five faculties refers to the understanding that they weaken at old age, so one has to make effort while still young.

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Hi SengKiat,

I totally agree with the post you refer to. Sense-pleasures are in no way innocent. I can see in my own mind (and also in the mind of others) this addictional habit, this greed for sense-pleasures. People suffer a lot due to this habit.

I never used drugs. I used some alcohol but especially as an adolescent i consumed very much candy and i was fond of sex. Sex was so nice.

I did not see any danger in it and enjoyed the taste of both very much. I eat candy almost any day, a lot, at school, non-stop.

It was a bad respons on my suffering, i belief, but i was not wiser. A lot of times i am still not wiser. I still belief the intention and deeds were not immoral. The view that this indulging in sense-pleasure was a skillful way to deal with my suffering, that was wrong.

But there was also immorality involved, because sometimes i did steal the candy or i did steal money to buy candy. Or sometimes i was so full of lust that i saw a girl as a lust-object. Not good. In the core immorality is due to avijja. We are not wiser. I was not wiser. I can still feel ashamed thinking about certain choices and behaviour.

Now i know that sense-pleasures are not innocent. Anything that triggers the reward-center of the brain, that is potentially dangerous. The brain will ask new reward-inputs. At a certain time the reward-center will ge screaming. This is felt as craving.

One becomes addicted that way and attached to rupa. It is like one is drawn into rupa. One becomes gross. A lot of people with a tendency to become addicted, just like me, get involved in immoral bevaviour without shame anymore. They are hardly accountable for that.

Reward can be anything. Not only candy, or sense-pleasures but also adventures, attention, the feeling of power and also the feeling of being in control which is also very rewarding.

I am not sure this is also true for the faculty of faith, concentration, wisdom, energy and mindfulness. Can they be compared to sense-pleasures?
Can we become addicted to that too? Is that what you mean by seeing danger in them?

Siebe

[sybe07]

I talk about this in a conventional sense Lal. In a conventional sense people have often good intentions but bad views, i belief.

For example, in earlier days upon now, there are religious people or cultures who sacrafice animals (or earlier humans) to please a God and, to give good health to family or clan or good harvest. Although killing animals i think the intention behind the killing is not bad or evil. The mind is directed to something positive but the method is cruel.

Or think about those people who in Buddha’s days and untill now wash in holy rivers to wash away bad kamma. Are their intentions evil, immoral, bad? I think not. The wish to loose bad kamma is, i belief a nobel wish.
But i belief, the view is not good. Washing in a river does not clean the mind. Good intentions but wrong view.

There are a lot of parents who spoil there children. But are the intentions of the parents bad? Maybe the parents truly belief that they are doing good.
Good intentions with wrong view.

I tend to spoil a little bit a sick girlfriend. She has MS. To provide her with something tasty. To give her a nice day, outside the treatment center.
Maybe it is foolish, bad view that she can become happy this way, but i know it is not immoral what i am doing. In fact, almost every welfare system is trying to give people, for a moment, a good time. In some way one can Judge this is totally foolish. One can better study dhamma and meditate, oke, but i do not think it is immoral or bad intentions.

The world is full of the combination wrong view and good intentions.

Even killing, stealing, lying, i would not say this cannot be done with any good intentions.

Siebe

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