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For me personally the debate on kamma has never really come to a satisfactory end.
I have studied the sutta on kamma. My opinion, based on the sutta’s SN36.21, AN5.104 and AN.10.60, is that the Buddha did not teach that any problem we face is caused by our own immoral deeds in the past. There are also other causes mentioned in those sutta’s. Kamma is a possible cause.
When one is still young one will have little pain and problems starting running, right?
And when one is over 50 it will be more difficult and painful.
What is the cause of the difference? Kamma? I would not say that.
There is a physiological cause that explains the difference in difficulties one meets.Some time ago I had this experience: I had for a long time very bad headackes, like fire burning in the mind, every day. At first i thought that it must be kamma-vipaka, some retribution of to much agression in my deeds. So i just beared that pain. I did not go away. After some time i started to question the cause of the pain. The intuition came…’you drink to little’…yes that was true. I drank only 600 ml a day. I started to drink 1,5 l a day and from that time on, the painful feelings, have totally vanished.
So, is some bad deed in the past creating that headacke or was it just a physiological cause?When people dehydrate all kinds of problems arise. Are those problems arising because one now reaps the fruits of immoral deeds? And they go away when one starts drinking??? This makes no sense, right?
I meant: those children who inheret the stolen money might live in luxery because of the stolen money of their father. Maybe their lifestyle has become dependend upon the stolen money which is now in their possession. This is a realistic scenario.
If this stolen money is being reclaimed they will meet with all kind of problems. Maybe their possesions, their houses and cars, are claimed. This is what i meant that they might inheret many problems.
I have never ever claimed that they inheret the negative kamma of stealing.
They might inheret the problems. Maybe the stolen money, now in their possession, is reclaimed and maybe they meet with all kinds of problems?
Yes, thanks Lal.
The Buddha was not satisfied with those arupa jhana’s. Why? Why were his teachers satisfied and the Buddha not? From the sutta’s i understand that the Buddha realised that also those arupa jhana are conditioned and come to an end. He was not, like all the rest, searching for something with that nature, even when it was very peaceful and sublime like the jhana’s.
The amazing thing is, i find, that the Buddha must have had a belief or intuition that there must be something unconditioned to find.
The wrong views can be identified as the views very similar of those of Ajita Kesakambali who lived at the same time as the Budddha and had a Sangha too. In DN2 he explains his view on life:
DN2§22. ‘Once I visited Ajita Kesakambali, and asked him the same question.
23. ‘Ajita Kesakambali said: “Your Majesty, there is nothing given, bestowed, offered in sacrifice, there is no fruit or result of good or bad deeds, there is not this world or the next, there is no mother or father, there are no spontaneously arisen beings, there are in the world no ascetics or Brahmins who have attained, who have perfectly practised, who proclaim this world and the next, having realised them by their own super-knowledge. This human being is composed of the four great elements, and when one dies the earth part reverts to earth, the water part to water, the fire part to fire, the air part to air, and the faculties pass away into space. They accompany the dead man with four bearers and the bier as fifth, their footsteps are heard as far as the cremation-ground. There the bones whiten, the sacrifice ends in ashes. It is the idea of a fool to give this gift: the talk of those who preach a doctrine of survival is vain and false. Fools and wise, at the breaking-up of the body, are destroyed and perish, they do not exist after death.”
IN MN76 there is a little bit more text on the view of Kesamkambali
Walshe (translater DN) regards him to be a materialist and Bodhi as or moral nihilist with a materialistic view.
I think many people today have the same view as Kesamkambali long ago.
kind regards,
SiebeDoes anybody really know nirodha samapati?
How would you describe this from within?kind regards
SiebeMN44 explains sakkaya ditthi’s. There are 20 kinds. In my own words: one regards or views rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana to be Me, or mine, or in Me, or Me in rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana.
So, if, for example, pain arises there also arises almost immediately the longstandig habit of regarding or viewing or assuming this pain as my pain. That is a sakkaya ditthi arising. Viewing dukkha vedana as mine. That is literally explained as sakkaya ditthi.
‘I am this’, or ‘this i am’ is the general expression of sakkaya ditthi (SN22.89).
It is said in Abhidhamma commentary that this habit can only be uprooted by the (sotapanna) magga citta. Does that mean it happens over time or at once?
And if this sotapanna magga citta arises do we not notice or experience that? Do we not experience Nibbana, which is the object of the magga citta?
In other words, does the arising of the magga citta stay unnoticed? Do we not have some kind of experience?
Personally i do not belief that sotapanna magga stays unnoticed.
I also do not know any references for this belief in the Sutta-pitaka.
There are texts who describe that the Dhamma-eye arises or opens, or that there is some breaktrough to the Dhamma or Four Noble Truths. This is noticed.I think that such a life-changing event can impossibly stay unnoticed.
If something has the impact to eradicate longstanding habits can it really stay unnoticed?Anyway, if someone knows a reference for the view that sotapanna magga is not noticed i would appreciate it.
Some own experience. When the mind is stressed, anxious, under high pressure, i can see, it tends to make bad judgements, especially also on cause and effect. It sees causes which are no causes. It creates associations which are not really there. It also tends to magical thinking. One can start to see all kind of signs.
Simple example: one is in a hurry and one travels with a car and all traffic lights are red. One starts to think reality is punishing oneself or somehow creating obstacles or one thinks this must be some bad omen or kamma vipaka. As though a traffic light would really have any concern for our activities.
I do not say that a stressed and anxious mind might not provoke certain behaviour in other people, but in general i think we must be al little be cautious in seeing all kinds of relationships when stressed, because a stressed mind tends to see things not clearly.
Siebe
I have, until now, not found any evidence for socalled hidden teachings in the Tipitaka.
Ofcourse the Buddha must have taught specific teachings to specific persons, matching there gati and qualities, just as any teachers always looks at the capabilities of the pupil.
But, any evidence for a predicted Mahāyāna or vajrayana or secret mantra’s or secret teachings, i have not seen. On the contrary, in the Pali sutta’s it is said that the Buddha did not have a closed fist regarding his teaching of the Dhamma. He taught things openly.Zen people refer to a teaching in which the Buddha only held up a flower and I belief only Kassapa knew what this meant. It is claimed by Zen that this moment started the non-oral direct transmission of the Dhamma. I have not yet found a Pali sutta in which this happens.
Probably this also refers to a Mahāyāna sutta?Other than theravada buddhist often refer to Mahāyāna texts for such types of claims, is my experience.
In the sutta’s there is a lot of debate about views of other guru’s with big sangha’s. One of them is Nigantha Nataputta which seems to refer to the Jain founder. Some texts in which the Jain doctrine is described is: MN14, MN101, MN56, SN41.8, SN42.8.
In those sutta’s the differences are described.All those views of other guru’s are always critisised. What is wrong about it is shown.
They are the views of Makkhali Gosala, Ajita Kesakambali, Purana Kassapa, Pudhaka Kaccayana, Sanjaya Belatthiputta, and Nigantha Nataputta.
Kesakambali is said to be a materialist and the views he had are the ten wrong views the Buddha taught.I find it a disturbing idea that the “last thought at the death moment” determines your next incarnation. That one moment can be so descisive is disturbing.
It feels like one is never safe this way, because one might have a bad thought at the death moment. One can do good all the time and still have a miserable rebirth this way when one at the death moment has a bad thought. It does not contribute to less fear of dying.
The removal of sakkaya ditthi is a big deal, i find. I think it also means there is no identification with the body, feelings, mental states etc. (I am the body, feelings etc)
Sometimes i wonder, is there really any human on Earth who does not identify? Maybe there are but i think they are very rare.
Aniduan, is sakkaya ditthi really removed? For example, if there arises pain, do you not have any tendency anymore to view this pain as my-pain? When you stand in front of the mirror and see your face, do you not have any tendency anymore to think ‘i look nice today or not so nice’? When there is sadness, anger, stress do you not think anymore ‘i am sad, angry, stressed’?
I see those views, i have them, and therefor do not think sakkaya ditthi has been removed in me. I admit i am surprised when someone says he/she has because is it is such a strong chain.
The sutta’s teach that the consequence of the removal of sakkaya ditthi’s is that mind become undisturbed, unagitated when rupa, sanna, vedana, sankhara and vinnana change. I cannot say this. There arises still worries when the body showns signs of illness or decay or strange feelings etc.
Are you sure sakkaya ditthi has been removed?
I totally agree with your observations Lal. Circumstances are really important. We might feel very succesful dhamma practioners, while living in wealth, surrounded by loving partners and friends, almost any need unconsciously fed. But what if circumstances really change? Our socalled realisation might seem illusionary.
Personally i have experienced it this way that one is helpless without relating to ones own conscience. It has no real value when others have to tell you what is immoral and immoral, and wise and not wise. One has to be ones own guide. This knowledge we have to find in our own hearts.
The real mirror of Dhamma is conscience. One knows inside oneself what is immoral and moral. A Buddha does not have to teach us this. We only have to acknowledge what is taught and it is nothing new. We often also feel we have to go in a certain direction, but do we listen?
The issue is not our not-knowing but the real issue is, why don’t we listen to our conscience? Why don’t we use the mirror of the Dhamma in all our daily activities?
Why is it not our daily focus, our guide, our calling? Why do we ignore our conscience and listen to impulses, to greed, hate etc?One day we will realise, (in what way is inpredictable), that listening to our conscience, the mirror of the Dhamma, is most important. Our cravings, our tanha, is not a messenger of the truth. It deprives us from our inner wisdom which is nothing other then the knowledge of the heart, our conscience.
Our consciense also knows that any egoistic driven behaviour is ofcourse not pure. We know that, but again we do not listen? In fact, all we have to know to proceed, we allready know.
But do we listen?I think it is wise, and integer, to differentiate in what we personally really know and think to know based on the study of texts etc.
Personally i feel ashamed when i pretend that i know something while there is only thinking to know. Knowledge of Dhamma is not really about thinking to know, right?
All those models, what do we really know about it? Is it our direct knowledge? Who of us does really know about gandhabba and rebirth, other then in theory? It becomes really problematic when theoretical knowledge is seen and presented as direct and true knowledge.
I think it is not foolish but wise to ask oneself in general..what do i really know?
