Post on “Dangers of Ten Types of Wrong Views and Four Possible Paths”

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    • #27412
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Could you please quote some Suttas that explicitly describe these 10 types of “Micca Ditthi”?
      I’ve actually read some that cite Paralowa, but I can’t remember them…

    • #27417
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Here are some:
      SN 24.5, AN 3.117 through AN 3.119, AN 10. 211, MN 42, MN 110, MN 41, MN 60, MN 76, DN 5, DN 34.

    • #27418
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Thank you very much Lal for your quick and decisive response! I have noticed that your posts and your updates are getting better and better, maybe the Forum was decisive so that V.S. could better understand the need for each of us who are chronic users of PureDhamma.net!
      As V.S. could see, I’m getting posts on the Forum! Thank you very much again!

    • #27419
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you, Lvalio!
      – However, some days I don’t get to respond so quickly.

      By the way, what do you mean by V.S.?

    • #27420
      y not
      Participant

      Venerable Sir ? !!

    • #27421
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Yes, Y Not! Very similar to that…

    • #27422
      cubibobi
      Participant

      For numbers 7 and 8 regarding Mother and Father, would it be correct to expand them to include nurturers? There are cases when Mother and Father are not around, and a baby is raised and nurtured by other people.

      A typical example is adoption at birth. Let’s say that Joe Average was adopted at birth, and he later cannot locate his biological parents (they could have remained anonnymous, moved away, or even died, etc). For Joe, “Mother” and “Father” are really his adoptive parents, correct?

      Thank you,
      Lang

    • #27425
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Cubibobi asked: “For numbers 7 and 8 regarding Mother and Father, would it be correct to expand them to include nurturers?”

      Of course, that would be a meritorious deed.

      However, we should never try to alter any set of “rules” or “guidelines” set up by the Buddha. There are many things in this world that we are not aware of, but a Buddha is.
      – The Bhikkhus who faithfully transmitted the Tipitaka over the past 2500 years (and especially in the first few hundred years where it was transmitted orally) took great care to NOT TO change anything at all.
      – That is why we can have faith that the Tipitaka contains the original teachings of the Buddha. Of course, that material is self-consistent too.

    • #27427
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I have been posting the recent posts from puredhamma.net on Dhamma Wheel discussion forum for some time. Regarding the recent post (the topic of this thread), the following question was asked:

      “How to confirm the existence of gandhabba from the individual experience?”

      The following is my answer, which could be helpful to some.

      This is a good question in the sense that it goes to the heart of Buddha Dhamma.

      As I explained in the recent three posts, Buddha’s teachings are not known to humans in the absence of a Buddha Sasana (or “Ministry of the Buddha” in Western terminology.) Many aspects are not amenable to the “experience of an average human.”
      The core teachings of the Buddha can be summarized into a few “axioms” in the terminology of science. An axiom in science is a “fundamental truth” that is taken to be “self-evident.”
      – However, in Buddha Dhamma, the following “axioms” are NOT self-evident, because only a Buddha can discover them.

      The following, among a few others, fall into that category.
      1. The laws of kamma.
      2. Existence of gandhabba and para loka.
      3. Existence of the 31 realms.
      4. The rebirth process.

      An average human can never figure out those on his/her own. Even when explained by a Buddha, not all can understand them either.
      – There is another critical factor involved in that “understanding process.” It HAS TO BE understood in a systematic way. One cannot just jump in and grasp those concepts right away.

      As we know, one cannot learn higher mathematics like calculus without learning basic arithmetic first, then algebra, and so on. Buddha Dhamma describes the laws of nature. Nature’s laws are much more complex than advanced mathematics.
      – There is an additional factor involved too. The ability to understand becomes easier when one starts “cleansing one’s mind.” That does not just mean following some precepts (even though they are an important part).
      – One has to start on the mundane path, live a simple life (away from both too much sensory pleasures and also hardships). That makes a mind less stressful and less agitated.
      – As one lives a moral life and keeps learning (and seeing the self-consistencies) one’s faith in the teachings will grow.

      For example, some people are very uncomfortable with the concept of rebirth and the idea that one could be born an animal or worse.
      – So, one needs to make an attempt to see whether there is truth to the rebirth accounts of so many children from all over the world.
      – Even if ONE rebirth account is true, that allows laws of kamma to work over multiple lives. One reason that many people don’t believe in the laws of kamma is that they can see murderers not getting justice, drug-dealers living luxurious lives, etc. But those actions do not go unpunished in the rebirth process.

      That is just one example. The bottom line is that do not expect to confirm those “axioms” in Buddha Dhamma by “personal experience” in the sense of being able to “see” a gandhabba.
      – However, personal experiences DO play a major role in the sense that one can start experiencing the benefits of the practice IF one does not restrict practice just to following a set of precepts.
      – Real “mediation” is contemplation. One has to learn Dhamma concepts and contemplate on them. There is no “blind faith” involved. Blind faith WILL NOT work.
      – Even a change in lifestyle to a simpler life (away from too much drinking, partying, gambling, etc) will indicate the benefits of a simple life. That is a good start.

      Now, I am NOT directing the above comments to you on a personal basis. I have no idea about the status of any single person at the forum. Those are general comments.
      – Furthermore, it is not possible to say all I need to say about this important issue in a post like this. But if you read my posts over the past couple of years at this forum, it may be possible to get a better idea.
      – By the way, your previous question on “bhava” and jati” falls under the same category. One has to logically follow the teachings of the Buddha to see the truth in them. It is a big jigsaw puzzle that needs to be assembled with a lot of effort and determination.
      – However, once some traction is gained, the “joy of Dhamma” will keep one fully engaged. Then one will realize that activities like watching movies are a waste of time and fishing, for example, is an immoral activity. One will not need to force oneself away from such activities. Again, you may be already fully engaged. That is a general comment, just like all my posts. They are meant for a general audience.

    • #27452
      sybe07
      Spectator

      The wrong views can be identified as the views very similar of those of Ajita Kesakambali who lived at the same time as the Budddha and had a Sangha too. In DN2 he explains his view on life:

      DN2§22. ‘Once I visited Ajita Kesakambali, and asked him the same question.

      23. ‘Ajita Kesakambali said: “Your Majesty, there is nothing given, bestowed, offered in sacrifice, there is no fruit or result of good or bad deeds, there is not this world or the next, there is no mother or father, there are no spontaneously arisen beings, there are in the world no ascetics or Brahmins who have attained, who have perfectly practised, who proclaim this world and the next, having realised them by their own super-knowledge. This human being is composed of the four great elements, and when one dies the earth part reverts to earth, the water part to water, the fire part to fire, the air part to air, and the faculties pass away into space. They accompany the dead man with four bearers and the bier as fifth, their footsteps are heard as far as the cremation-ground. There the bones whiten, the sacrifice ends in ashes. It is the idea of a fool to give this gift: the talk of those who preach a doctrine of survival is vain and false. Fools and wise, at the breaking-up of the body, are destroyed and perish, they do not exist after death.”

      IN MN76 there is a little bit more text on the view of Kesamkambali

      Walshe (translater DN) regards him to be a materialist and Bodhi as or moral nihilist with a materialistic view.

      I think many people today have the same view as Kesamkambali long ago.

      kind regards,
      Siebe

    • #27457
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Good comment, Siebe.
      Yes. There were materialists then, just like today.

      But there were also yogis like Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta who did not have the ten types of miccha ditthi and were on the “mundane eightfold path.”
      – That is why they were able to cultivate jhana.

      Of course, they were not aware of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of the world, and that is why they could not get to Nibbana.
      – Upon Enlightenment, the Buddha thought about teaching his new-found Dhamma to those two yogis, but they had just died.

    • #27458
      sybe07
      Spectator

      Yes, thanks Lal.

      The Buddha was not satisfied with those arupa jhana’s. Why? Why were his teachers satisfied and the Buddha not? From the sutta’s i understand that the Buddha realised that also those arupa jhana are conditioned and come to an end. He was not, like all the rest, searching for something with that nature, even when it was very peaceful and sublime like the jhana’s.

      The amazing thing is, i find, that the Buddha must have had a belief or intuition that there must be something unconditioned to find.

    • #27459
      y not
      Participant

      It may be more than belief and intuition, which we all possess to one degree or another. Would it have to do, rather, more with the ‘level of wisdom’ of a Boddhisatta? ….since it is an intimation of Nibbana that the Bodhisatta must have had.

      The Jataka provides many instances of the Bodhisatta’s wisdom in his previous existences.

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