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” If that would be the truth, you could just live your life as you want, fell dead and there will be “someone else” worried about suffering so there need to be an aspect of “I” that suffers thru lifetimes ”
Actually yes, this is the case with early people who start on the path that if NOTHING in me will be there in future lives so why should I worry, let me ‘enjoy’ my life and die. This is why I think Buddha Dhamma should not be seen as a ‘religion’ because I think its better to say its training for people who can comprehend what ‘suffering’ is. Different people have different ‘notion’ of suffering so what can we do? That is why its not easy for people to persevere who lack ‘Panna’ or don’t have any past gati built up as said by Lal sir on this site. Those people can be given push by Buddha or an ariya with abhinna like when Buddha made a person to see a female deva.
If one imagines a lifestream travelling from life after life in this rebirth process, as I explained it is not possible to grasp the complete picture because those entities like ‘time’ comes into picture which do not exist by there own nature. Here we have to take word of the Buddha that only 4 things exists by their own nature Rupa, Citta, Cetasika and Nibbana. There is no problem if we take ‘time’ into consideration but that picture cannot be grasped fully there will be missing links if one sees things and world from Third Persons perspective like a lifestream in rebirth process. By taking time into consideration I mean that if we imagine that this this will happen to me in ‘future’, but its hard to fanthom that and of course there will be missing links but ‘seeing’ that fanthoming for future is still ‘here & now’ why? because Vaci Sankhara is going on and Sanna is taking ‘I’ as one’s body. This time we only took Paramatthas into picture, other beings their body, vaci vinnati, kaya vinnati are all rupa for us but fanthoming can be done like what must be happening to them? but that CANNOT be grasped fully and exactly moreover, it may lead to contradictions let alone missing links. why? entities other than paramatthas are considered.
But if one sees things and world from FPP or from Paramatthas then there will be no missing links let alone contradictions.
P.S. One can say that any being is flux of Rupa, Citta, Cetasika or is Nibbana. It always existed initially as flux of rupa,citta,cetasika now as nibbana because nibbana exists by its own nature just as other paramatthas.That should do :)
I come up with an analogy that is crude but people with decent grip on dhamma will catch up.
There is a driver driving a bus, the bus has many goods kept inside, the driver has money to buy different goods and when the bus runs out of fuel new bus is bought and driver again starts to drive it.The bus is the physical body, goods kept inside are the ‘Rupakkhanda and its analysis Vinnakkhanda’ and the money is ‘gati & anusayas’.
A person makes contact with rupa and it is ‘filtered’ with his gati, in this crude analogy its money that is an intermediary between. The goods have a spacial location but Rupakkhanda and Vinnanakhanda have no spacial location.
When the driver drops all the money, he runs the bus until it has fuel and then comes out of the bus but has no money to ‘buy’ a new bus. This is when a being attains Nibbana, when ‘filter’ of gati and anusaya is removed.
But here comes the missing link, who is the driver?
This questions comes when some percipient like one reading this, looks/observes evolution of a lifestream from a perspective of a third person. When this questions comes one should take the awareness to oneself and see the things with first person perspective, here one will see one is doing vaci sankhara i.e. recalling the existing rupakkhanda or making contact with any outside rupa, now is the citta (which analyzes ‘what’ is presented to the senses) has a cetasika called Sanna which determines ‘what’ is recognized, so it places the value this is this, that is that, but it also has to determine ‘who’ is recalling? This ‘who’ is generally taken as physical body but the keypoint is that there is just Rupa and that ‘who’ can be placed on anything by the sanna, on what it will be placed is determined by the ‘filter’ or ‘gati’.
This is the reason I think why ‘Sanna’ is distinguished from other cetasikas in abhidhamma. Until there is Sanna and Tanha for Vedana there is bondange which is a suffering, and of course one get those because of ‘avijja’ at the previous cuti patisandhi moment. That is the why the only security from bondage is sannavedaitynirodha, the real and only happiness.I am remembering that this driver bus analogy is discussed somewhere at this site. The thing one must know is that there is nothing which is unchanging in a lifestream and that is why it is possible for each and every lifestream to attain Nibbana by removing the gati via changing it towards good and cultivating Panna. And that is why Vyapada and Mana are ‘bonds’ even because they all arise out of delusion that there is a being which should be hated for his ‘bad’ actions and I am good for this this things.
If being has to be pinpointed it can be done to its ‘gati’ but that gati can also be changed, so the being cannot be pinpointed. This is a complex issue arising out of considering things with Third Persons perspective. This pinpointing is done by Sanna Cetasika and it can be done on anything (but nothing is absolute or unchanging) and Nibbana is of course realizing ‘Nothing’ is worth considering oneself i.e. placing value as ‘I’.
I hope I conveyed what I wanted to.With Metta.
– Actually, One can talk about lifestreams grasping other bhava but that can only be known to a limited extent and can only be fully grasped by a Sammasambuddha.
-This ‘overall’ perception of lifestream grasping one bhava to another in this beginning less samsara, one should know that cannot be fully/exactly grasped and that’s why these shouldn’t be speculated at.
– And if one wants to know and contemplate the reality one should always do in terms of Paramatthas or one might end up ‘confused’ or with a wrong view of a ‘soul’ or that of annhilation like Ven Yamaka.
– Neverthless, discussion started by Lal sir can be pursued but as the question of christian is ‘exactly’ asking to ‘pinpoint’ the reality, I think then contemplating only in terms ‘absolute realities’ or Paramatthas should be done.
– I think its better to comprehend this oneself if one wants to because the insights are difficult to put into those words which will convey the ‘essence or idea’ and if one has not comprehended oneself then reading many times may not do any good as mentioned by Christian that one cannot learn dhamma even from this site because essentially its just written text but that comprehension should be based on Paramatthas ( I know I repeated it way too much but this is what I found, focus on purifying the mind not to speculate, if you want to speculate do it in terms of ultimate realities then arisen ‘question’ should be resolved.:)With Metta
There is a ball kept on a table in front of a person. The person can see the ball. Then the ball disappeared. Then the person will say that there was a ball on this table in the past.
Here, we have to introduce an ‘entity’ that ball was ‘in’. That entity is called ‘time’.But with abhidhamma, we say earlier ‘varna rupa’ made contact with ‘cakku pasada rupa’ and what ‘recognized’ that varna rupa is cakku vinnana. After the ball disappeared,
when the person recalls dhamma is making contact with mana indriya, vaci sankhara and mano vinnana is recognizing and saying, “the ball was there in the past.”Vinnana is defiled consciousness so its better to use the term ‘Citta & Cetasika’.
What we are discussing is ‘perpetuation’ of lifestream, for perpetuation we have to introduce ‘time’ like in the example for explaining the disappearence of the ball we have to impart the concept of time. But with abhidhamma, concept of time is not required because whatever is recognized is ‘Rupa’ and recognition is ‘Nama’ and a being is this inter-manisfestation of both. If we discuss based on any reference other than Paramatthas, as in case of X, concept of ‘transmigration’ of any ‘entity’ in an ‘entity” comes into picture where entity is soul, entity’ is time.
This is what I have tried to explain in my above post that why a discussion on lifestream’s perpetuation will never come at any satisfactory conclusion because we then will be introducing those ‘entities’ which do not ‘exist’ by their own nature, like that of Paramatthas.
Thank You :)
Just saw Lal sir’s post actually I was writing before this post, Yes we can discuss this approach but I think ‘Time’ should be kept out of the question because this life stream X never started!, it must have graped human bhava because of some kamma bija in rupakkhanda. This is what I have explained in brief.
The reality is complex people tend to see it that it started somewhere but that’s not the case.
What I have understood is that we can put existence into Rupakkhanda and its analysis Vinnanakkhanda, and there is a Sanna cetasika which recognizes ‘things’ actually vedana also recognizes but there ‘recognition’ is different that’s why sanna is sanna and vedana is vedana.I think this concept of something carried after death or perpetuating from one life to another shouldn’t be seen this way because no satisfactory answer we will get. why? because this one life to another is just one among many ‘illusions’ or rather ‘obvious perceptions’ which one gets when one see something at first glance like some may come across sense pleasures and say that these are created by god for man to enjoy but reality is VERY different.
Time is a big illusion, because we just created an extra entity for course of events happening to describe it. The sanna cetasika is what recognises things as ‘I’. Its takes the physical body as ‘I’ until someone sees his past life, when one sees the past life one sees another body and it thinks previously I was that now I am this but the point to be noted is that there are just two bodies and its upto ‘sanna’ to place what should be taken as ‘I’
Basically Rupakkhanda and its recognition Vinnanakhanda exists without any time like past, present or future. Just that Rupa makes contact with pasada rupa that making contact ‘phassa’ is Nama, so what can we say, Rupa is manifesting into Nama and Nama into Rupa. Rupakkhanda and Vinnanakkhanda is manifestation of one another, actually this concept of ‘one’ existing entity or in other words what ‘exists’ and what ‘do not exists’ cannot be resolved.
Now regarding your question its early people on the path think that even if I were to born again I will NOT be the same, so why to leave sensuality? This is like a paradox if NOTHING remains same in a given lifestream so how can we say that the two lifestreams are one? This thing cannot be resolved as I explained in brief, actually one can get insights if one has understood abhidhamma.
For Christian, I know you know these things should not be ‘speculated’ upon. And in general, If one really wants to understand ‘the existence’ reading abhidhamma would be enough. Then one will know that keeping the ‘reference frame’ right is important, when we say of a life stream that it is ever changing then how can we say there is a ‘perpetuation’ even? These two ‘contradictory’ statements are arising because we have kept the ‘reference frame’ wrong.
For ex: If one keeps ‘reference frame’ that a loving god created the world then why the world has suffering? This topic can be debated endlessly and creationalists may even provide ‘arguments’ in favour but as we know no satisfactory answer we will get. Why? Because reference frame is wrong.Similarly world should always be seen terms of paramatthas rupa, citta, cetasika otherwise even Dhamma concepts MAY look contradictory. The right reference frame is to talk in terms of Paramatthas and without ‘time’ involved.
I will take a point of asanna satta you mentioned, thoughtless logs but how do we know? maybe any finer glowing body in our imagination which is made of the rupa we came in contact with eye base, and its recognition as ‘finer’. Someone with divine eye may see them, for that person they are still rupa and its recognition. If we think what might be happening with that asanna brahma, its still rupa and vinnana in our mind ( I used ‘our mind’ to emphasize, in reality, it is again rupa and vinnana).
Long story short, right reference is important because ANY reference other than paramatthas WILL bring contradictions and those cannot be resolved.
Hello Raja_mw
This is the path of cetovimutti:
– Learn dhamma with curiosity to know about the true nature of the world or what is the reality or what is the truth?
-Engage in Vaci and Kaya Sankharas in accordance of Dhamma, i.e. practice sati and anapana.
-Repeat till you get to this stage where you know why you want to attain nibbana?, ‘This is suffering’, ‘This is the cause of suffering’, ‘This is the way to cease the suffering’. In short you know what should be known just the part left is executing it via Jhanas in a
formal ‘SITTING’ meditation. I think mostly all attained arahantship while sitting.– But the path has many obstacles one of which is restlessness or Uddhacca, while understanding dhamma and Jhanas, it is suppressed so one is ‘Tranquil or at ease’ but it is only removed at arahant stage so we must be aware of this Uddhacca and try not to go back to lower life like Ven Sona in this case and we all have TV, Phone etc so we are more vulnerable so to speak. As mentioned on this site, that ‘nagging’ feeling when we are restless ‘There is nothing to do, what should I do?’
-Leaving the ‘holy life’ means to become a ‘bauddhaya’ and not a ‘bhikkhu’. Both are on the path just bhikkhus are more strict, of course as one bauddhaya will progress he will see the dangers of being idle and will get more and more ‘disciplined’.
-Being a bhikkhu is very conducive for arahantship, it requires days to get there like Ven Mahakassapa.– Meditation in any form be it walking or sitting is contemplating ‘Tillakkhana’ of 5 aggregates, but when one will sit and do it, its likely that one will be tranquil, dwelling in rapture and bodily happiness, so whats the need of even moving a finger.
– But sitting meditation cannot be done at all times as Lal sir mentioned, Ven Sona was ‘burned up’ while practicing walking meditation (I remember), walking meditation means walking contemplating on anicca, dukkha, anatta; if it is some other dhamma concept then one is likely to walk very slowly like ‘someone engaged in deep thinking’ but if its regular tillakhana then one can walk with decent pace and ‘Enjoy’ the piti felt on face.
– Its just a matter of time, cultivate 4 supreme efforts, learn dhamma, when one ‘sees’ the cooling down or Nivana, no need to ask anyone, you know what should be done.
– Regarding ‘procedure’ of walking meditation, I suggest that you should walk after having food, engage in mundane works if not then sitting meditation.– As Lal sir said and I too, ‘Exercises’ like Push ups, squats, Jogging, streching etc can be extremely helpful when Uddhacca is present because you cannot sit, stand or walk nor you want to watch TV or any recreation stuff, you are just ‘restless’. At that time acknowledge that its Uddhacca and the best thing to do at that time is ‘Exercising’.
– Actually, this is not sloth and torpor i.e. Tina Middha because you want to pursue your goal of Nibbana but you just can’t because of Uddhacca. Thats why in many suttas that I read exercising and streching is mentioned as regular course of actions of bhikkhus but we do not have to memorize gathas like them because of Lal sir’s compassionate effort for this site. The point is that we have much more time than a bhikkhu at that time to put effort on ‘understanding’ because we have ‘all dhamma’ available in our hands and we should be grateful and happy for this. So, add exercise to your routine rather than walking meditation this is my suggestion :)“another question is do you think that people who attain Anariya Jhana when they come across this Teaching will benefit more/faster in attain Ariya Stages?”
– Yes it would be easier, because in order to cultivate Jhanas one has to be a Tihetuka (I read on this site Lal sir should correct me if that’s not the case), actually even for a Tihetuka with or without Jhanas understanding dhamma can come at different ‘pace’ best example is of ven culapanthaka who couldn’t memorize even a single gatha in a month and was asked to disrobe by his brother but then Buddha came and gave him instructions and he attained arahantship, he had a blockage point which Buddha was capable to devise.With Metta
Yes sir, that post is now available.
This post Persistent vegetative state buddhist view. also is redirected.
I found it on Forums > Questions on puredhamma posts > 9th thread.With Metta.
I remember earlier I tried to access this post in Tilakkhana- English discources. under 5th discource, it didn’t work so I left it.
Today I remembered about this post and the broken link forum, so I found this under ‘Living Dhamma’ section > Nama and Rupa to Namarupa > Rupa aggregate > What are rupa? Dhamma are rupa too.
Always grateful
With Metta.Sir,
Actually I am trying to cultivate Jhana and during meditation I am fine and good, but as soon as I ‘End it’ and ‘Get up or sitting down with changed posture’, I feel very cold and I think the wintery weather is alleviating that ‘after cool spree’.– Its amazing that during the meditation, despite winters, the ‘cool pleasure’ in body is ‘soothing’ but this sukha is very different from the sudden drop down of temperature and cold shivering ‘after’ coming out of Jhana.
– This aftermath coldness is a hindrance for my Jhana cultivation, if it would be summers then I think this aftermath wouldn’t be a problem.“The ultimate goal of meditation is to cultivate Panna (wisdom) and realize the unfruitfulness AND dangers in the rebirth process.”
-Yes sir, This is what I used to do mostly, I was never been able to sit in meditation for long, actually I NEVER tried to meditate because I am glad that I found the real meaning of meditation i.e. ‘contemplation’ in the first place, so I never did any formal sitting or a ‘procedure'(Kammathana), but contemplated on dhamma concepts walking or sitting casually.
– But recently, I am not left with Dhamma concepts to contemplate during a walk or to say it other way, everything has fit nicely into the big picture, I have ‘seen’ the way to Nibbana and I want to get there quickly.
– So, I am practicing to remove Kama Raga and Patigha via 1st Ariya Jhana, It is not requiring ‘efforts’ to get into Jhana because I always focused on purifying the mind and connecting the dots and contemplation, meditation was out of the question. But STUBBORN Kama Raga and Patigha, I think can only go by the mastering the first absorption, but the cold shivering or winters is coming in the way.Again all thanks to you, Venerable Waharakha Thero, and the Buddha!
May all beings attain the only happiness of Nibbana.I think most of the time I get into samadhi rather that Jhana, and only sometimes I feel intense rapture during meditation. I think I am around weak level of 1st Ariya Jhana.
Thank You sir for clarying the levels of Jhanas, I missed that earlier.With Metta.
Thank you Mr.Lang and Lal sir for clearing my misunderstanding.
… all beings suffer from Dukha dukha every single moment.”
Yes, it should not be Dukkha dukkha, but it could be our inability to maintain our current Bhava(any state of mind or body) for long, which is of anicca nature and will lead to dukha if we get attached to that state or bhava.
But we will only get helpless if we have craving for that bhava in the first place. And thus, we can choose not crave for it and see its drawbacks, and thus by removing asavas, we can avoid much of the suffering caused by that craving. and eventually remove all future suffering by attaining Nibbana.
-And I think having nicca nature of Bhava will cause Vipareenama dukha.Sir, I always respect your dedication to Puredhamma site.
“There are many things about this world that we are not aware of. It is not worthwhile to look into fine details.”
Yes sir that’s why i avoid these mostly, but messenger of gods confused me a bit that’s why i asked. Now it’s clear and consistent.
Much gratitude.Sir, This Majjhima Nikāya 130, is the Sutta, where Niraya is described.
