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Lal, so basically, the mind beats up itself (arising of pilana) to derive happiness from something which has no happiness. this is why pilana is constantly there.
true source of pilana is avijja and vipallasa.
Now I understand the analogy of a dog clearly. I didn’t understand it until now.
The analogy of Dog =
A dog trying to derive meat from the meatless bone gets tired and enjoys its own blood.
Mind is like that foolish dog when Vipallasa is there.
Happiness is like a mirage (Only in perception).
We don’t find happiness in this world BECAUSE it doesn’t exist more than a mirage exists in the desert.
Happiness exists only in the wrong perception of the world.
this is why no one finds any permanent satisfaction AND in addition, everyone finds so much suffering in the world when trying to look for it.
The Story of foolish men trying to find a lost object under the light
It is like a foolish man who had lost his ring somewhere in the dark part of the street but was trying to find it in the area where there was light. How could someone find something, which is not there?Happiness/Peace is not found due to everyone looking for it in the wrong place (in the six senses), where nibbana cannot ever be found.
Because no one is there to tell us that we are looking at the wrong place, we are forever looking for it.
In a hopelessly hopeful manner.
Everywhere in the UNIVERSE, so many things are there, which can be sensed through the six senses, but all of them are utterly useless for purpose of permanent happiness. The IRONY of EXISTENCE is that the thing that is actually helpful (Nibbana) cannot be sensed through any of the six senses.
This was the whole point of the recent JBM sermon.
Link to JBM sermon: “The sound of silence”
Trying to find happiness via the six senses is like trying to hear the ‘sound of silence”.
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Yes, Lal.
I understand that there no permanent being who is suffering in rebirth process.
Suffering is just Suffering.
When taṇhā is there, Dukkhā is there.
No taṇhā, no Dukkhā.
Lal, Your explanation above is very helpful in understanding the taṇhā and upādāna at cittā level and also I can see the 4NT in above explanation.
I got very clear idea about this process now. Also, reading the recommended posts.
Everyone reading this please read above explanation by Lal. Lal you explained and help connect many dhamma concepts with above description; Including kamma vipakā, kamma generation, 4NT, Akusala PS cycle etc.
Thank you for you efforts to help us all everyday in getting more near to The Nibbāna🙏🏻.
Huge merits and mettā.
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Lal said,
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
1. So, Basically whole dukkhā Samudaya starts at V stage due to mind making wrong decision due to wrong worldview, isn’t it?
Here, Wrong worldview = diṭṭhi/saññā/cittā vipallāsa regarding 11 components of PañcakKhanda.
Wrong decision = Trying to solve problem of dukkhā of saṅsarā within saṅsarā.
2. At Arhant Stage, ALL mano saṅkhāra are free from vipallāsa due to paññā and broken anusaya. So, for Mind with complete paññā, At V stage, there is no attachment to anything in any vipakā cittā, right?
3. All dukkhā starts due to mind not understanding 4NT. When mind tries to escape dukkhā experienced in saṅsarā within saṅsarā only, it is like jumping from one disease to another. That is the whole problem. Nothing in this world leads to permanent escape from dukkhā.
4. Mind creates prison for itself by befriending/Resisting vipakā.
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It is really eye opening to see that beings laced with ignorance wears handcuffs on their own.
This whole sentient existence is one big cruel joke.
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Lal, I want to ask you some questions;
1. More perceived pleasure in any ārammaṇa → More Assāda
2. More Assāda → More Pīḷana (when mind thinks that absolute true happiness is in PañcakKhanda, it gets stressed due to not having it.)
3. More Pīḷana → More false Pleasure is felt when that Pīḷana is reduced.
3.1 Sometimes beings become mad/insane when this Pīḷana is not relieved.
3.2 Pīḷana is reduced by having liked and not having unliked
3.3 (3.2) is not possible due to tilakkhana nature of this world.
4. So, Basically More headache is there, more the relief is felt when it is temporarily reduced or permanently reduced by dhamma paññā.
5. By perceiving happiness in something, peace in the present moment is lost. That is why kāma is like debt, right? (Debt owed to future isn’t it?)
6. In summary: Mind gets mentally hurt (in presence of ignorance) and then tries to achieve twisted pleasure by relieving itself from that very same mental suffering.
7. Pīḷana is due to PañcaUpādānakKhanda.
8. In first noble truth,
Level 1 dukkhā = Rebirth Dukkhā
Level 2 dukkhā = mundane worldly dukkhā= Having unliked, unwanted, unexpected AND Not having liked, wanted, expected
Level 3 dukkhā = Speciality of Buddha Dhamma = Reason for Pīḷana = Reason for level 2 AND level 1 dukkhā = PañcaUpādānakKhanda
Ofcourse, Level 3 dukkhā is due to vipallāsa about nature of saṅsarā.
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Are All of the above statements correct or not?
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Okay, Lal. Thank you for very detailed reply.
I will try to understand this at that level of detail and will ask questions if something is unclear.
TGS wrote above,
To me this is a very big deal. I don’t know if I’ll ever go into why this so . . . because there’s so many layers to this . . . but thought of sharing the link that relates to this discussion . . .
I am not sure what you are getting at exactly, but I have little glimpse into this direction. But, Everyone needs to understand that “we receive anything the way we give it”. Someone who gives slavery or ignorance or distortion is bound to receive same. We don’t need to worry about anyone’s actions except our own. Everyone is heir to their kamma.
This what I was contemplating recently.
Spiritual teachers have extremely huge and important responsibilities. They are supposed to teach others about how to break prison of saṅsarā. If they don’t do it properly i.e. teach DISTORTED dhamma (whatever intention might be) they will receive the distorted dhamma in future. Because distorted dhamma is not going to lead anyone (neither teachers nor students) to true absolute unconditional permanent freedom.
In addition this teacher and students who are practicing distorted version of dhamma which doesn’t lead to Nibbāna will be tried to each other with kammic strand. Which will hinder their own Nibbāna.
“Is it really true that by remaining equanimous we can “get rid of or eradicate seeds, thereby leading to no more new fruit?”
I was going to say as well . . . “If that’s the case, then we would’ve all have attained Nibbana many times . . . “
This is something people don’t seem to be understanding.
The natural equanimity to any sensory event can be only achieved through Dhamma.
One can force mind to be equanimous for only so long. Then again one will start to create merits or demerits.
This where many spiritual traditions fail.
They have good description about end goal, but they don’t share any methodology about how to mold mind to permanently behave in the said equanimous way.
Dosakkhayo wrote above,
until now, I’ve corresponded tanha to mano sankhara and upadana to vaci and kaya sankhara in my mind.
I also understand same.
Is this correct or not?
Asking this because, I did try to read this whole thread, But I don’t understand subtle Abhidhamma details very clearly. I am trying to understand dhamma at conceptual level absolutely clearly.
Lal said above,
Bahiya understood that there was no “person” seeing, hearing, etc
Lal, shared a perspective on Bahiya suttā.
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The perspective that I had about bahiya suttā was that Bahiya understood that adding san to sensory experience is what causes dukkhā.
When sound is just sound, Taste is just taste, Touch is just touch, Sight is just sight, Smell is just a smell …
And when NO San is added to sensory event that in itself is freedom and end of all dukkhā.
Mind behaves AS IF it is entity, when it is under influence of defilements. (PañcaUpādānakKhanda/Sakkāya).
Something I forgot to highlight in previous reply was that was that,
Defiled mind is possessed/Hacked mind.
Defiled mind is like when someone wears Superman costume on Halloween and start to behave as if He is Supermen; while He is not actually Superman.
Same thing happens with mind; When mind creates lustful/greedy attachments to some PañcakKhanda and creates hateful attachments to some PañcakKhanda; Mind gets Possessed/Hacked due to attachments.
It is like mind unknowingly (under influence of ignorance) creates prison for itself.
And Bahiya would must have had put lot of efforts to make spiritual progress in previous lives to have understood the dhamma so fast.
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That was good explanation, Lal.
Thank you for explaining “Ghana saññā” and Pheṇapiṇḍūpamasutta in detail.
Now, viññāṇa and Rūpa, saññā is clear according to this sutta.
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I was talking to another dhamma friend, He explained that “saṅkhāra are like banana tree wood because just as banana tree has no strong heart wood, all akusala saṅkhāra have no essence or value. They don’t lead to anything useful or fruitful.”
Is this correct?
Friends, I got bit of insight about this sutta;
#1 It says that saññā/perception is like mirage in desert. Only now, I start to realise the meaning and importance of it;
Due to vipreetha/distorted saññā, we perceive something which is not there; like mirage in desert;
Example of Cow;
Like cow seeing dry grass as green grass due to wearing green glasses and then eating it under this wrong perception!
Another example illustrating mirage like nature of saññā;
Perceiving someone as friend or foe; While, There is nothing such as friend or enemy in reality;
Is there any inherent property in anybody which makes them your ally or enemy? Why one person can be worst enemy of someone while someone else think of that same person as their best friend?
We basically hold onto something done/said by that person and we perceive that person based onto that part. (p.s. holding onto something is converting PañcakKhanda into PañcaUpādānakKhanda.)
For example, holding onto someone’s good behaviour might make us think of them as friend and holding onto someone’s bad behaviour or something negative makes us think of them as enemy.
Now, in mundane sense there can be friend or foe.
But, in ultimate reality there is no such thing as friend or foe more then there is mirage in desert.
So, we behave like donkey pulling cart (bearing painful PañcakKhanda), except not only carrot is not reachable but carrot in not there in first place! our perceived carrot (which is not only unattainable but is not there to begin with) is long term happiness; which is perceived as such due to three kinds of vipallāsa!
@Lal, Can you verify this insight? Is this correct way to understand mirage like nature of saññā?
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#2 Also, Now I am bit curious; just as there is excellent reason behind comparison of saññā to mirage in desert …
Why RūpakKhanda is specifically compared to water foam and VedanāKkhanda to water bubble?
My guess on why vedanā is compared to water bubble;
Maybe it is because vedanā comes through “phassa paccayā vedanā” dependent on six senses, just like bubble all type of vedanā come and go very fast, like bubble on water.
Is this correct?
You said above in this thread;
– feeling (vedana) also foam (bubbles that appear when it rains and break quickly),
– vinnana to the trunk of a banana tree (which has no “hardcore” or essence); one becomes tired at the end.
While in sutta itself,
Rūpa is compared to water foam;
Vedanā is compared to water bubble;
Saññā is compared to mirage in desert;
Saṅkhāra are compared to wood of banana tree; empty and hollow without heart wood;
Viññāṇa is compared to magician’s trick;
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#3 My guess on why viññāṇa is compared magician’s trick;
It is maybe because, kamma viññāṇa creates whole world (PañcakKhanda). Once we see the mechanism of formation of Kamma viññāṇa and how it brings result i.e. creates nāmarūpa, we are no longer fascinated by existence/sensory experience; so it is basically due to understanding nāmarūpa paricceda ñāṇa.
Is this correct?
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#4 why saṅkhāra are compared to banana tree wood specifically?
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but once I finish some projects I’m working on I would love to be able to start translating puredhamma.net posts into Dutch. Needless to say, I’d have to do some research on websites and gain Lal’s approval first.
6th language!!!
Sadhu!!! ☸️
Thank you Lal for bringing the knowledge of Waharaka Thēro and your talent and understanding of Māgadh Pakrit/Pali translation into our lives.
Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu…
Sadhu!!!
Yes, however much we admire the Lal’s work, it is never going to be sufficient.
Thanks to him we are all going to be able to stop whole saṅsarā from arising for ourselves and put away the slavery to conditionality.
There is no way to pay back debt owed to Lal except sharing dhamma with other interested truth seekers. Helping others understand dhamma.
His hard work of years, precise language, modern scientific evidence, strictly following research methodology of modern science and ensuring consistency of posts among three pitaka etc.
And above all, always being open to evidence.
That is very critical for those who are interested finding out final truths, making progress on path, developing paññā. There is no progress through faith alone or being close minded or fooling your mind.
May Lal have long life and short saṃsāric journey ☸️.
p.s. I am so happy and glad to see many practitioner of PureDhamma community helping others in so many ways. Whether that is by sharing dhamma, translating it, sharing sermons, commenting good insights etc.
Let’s all keep doing the huge merits, create enviornment to manifest everything that is Kusala, puñña in this world and let the flow of pristine dhamma rain on all beings and wash their kilēsa and cool down tapa from their mind.
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Thank you @TripleGemStudent for your well wishes.
