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Question: Why same sensory event creates two different experience in two minds?
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For example, why same SIGHT creates different emotions in different minds?
(Example, a person seen by his friend vs enemy)
Why same SOUND creates different emotions in different minds?
(For example abusive words spoken to friend vs to a enemy)
Why same TASTE creates different emotions in different minds?
(For example somebody eating fruit and liking it vs that same fruit ate by someone results in him disliking it.)
Why same TOUCH creates different emotions in different minds?
(For example, family member touching you vs girlfriend touching you.)
Why same SMELL creates different emotions in different minds?
(Pig loves waste, most of humans hate it. Some with distorted mind might even loves pee/waste if it comes from someone they like.)
This is whole point of dhamma. “Sensual pleasures”, “sensual enjoyment”, “sensual happiness” etc whatever its called, it is created IN MIND BY MIND. It is not innate inherent absolute property of object itself.
Sensuality comes from distorted worldview. At Anāgāmī fruit, this broken deluded worldview is fixed at saññā level (Anusaya/mental fermentations is broken.)
Arhants or Anāgāmī is someone who doesn’t enjoy something particular. Everything is equal for them.
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Also, in dhamma terminology:
Emotions = Particular type of mindset/bhava and also samphassa-jā-vedanā.
Everyone is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching the same thing yet, different mindset arises for everyone.
In all this cases the sound is just a sound, sight is just a sight, taste is just a taste, touch is just a touch, smell is just a smell.
BUT, when there is more then sound to sound, more to sight then sight alone, more to taste then just a taste alone, more to touch then just a taste alone; when something more is put into sensory experience then what is already there, suffering is just fabricated.
This adding something extra means adding San/Kilēsa/Defilements to neutral sensory experience basically.
Root PROBLEM is always in mind, not in world out there.
You can understand the same thing from Abhidhamma perspective. About how a single cittā gets defiled in nine stages.
Defiled mind is possessed mind.
It is like you wear Superman costume on Halloween and start to behave as if you are supermen; while you are not actually Superman.
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I think this what Bahiya understood instantly AND got free.
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This is an excellent post. However, there are two separate issues that LDF brought up.
1. Bahiya understood that there was no “person” seeing, hearing, etc.
- Seeing, hearing, etc., are just “processes,” and there is no unchanging “person” (say, Lal) seeing, hearing, etc. (P.S. Now, don’t take this to mean “Lal does not exist.” But the way he responds to a sensory event now is not the same as he would have some years back. There is no “unchanging essence in Lal.” Once Lal stops responding to ANY sensory event with even a trace of lobha, dosa, and moha (avijja), he becomes an Arahant. Then, upon death, “Lal” will not be reborn anywhere among the 31 realms. That will be the end of suffering for “Lal.” This is related to #2 below.)
- For example, see “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots’”
- Understanding that helps get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
2. The question, “Why does the same sensory event create two different experiences in two minds?” that LDF raised at the beginning is a different (but related) issue.
- Once sensory input is received, each “person” gets attached to it at different levels (or not attached).
- That depends on each person’s gati/anusaya/strength of the sensory input (for example, even though not tempted by a small bribe, one may accept a large one!)
3. There is a lot to think about regarding these two issues. This is real Vipassana! (not Goenka’s Vipassana.)
These are the issues to be discussed. I can write a thousand posts without much effect. Discussions (with much thinking involved) can bring out “hidden concepts” and clarify issues.
- Just reading a post is never enough! But that is all many people do. I am not referring to LDF. He puts a lot of thought into his comments.
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Lal said above,
Bahiya understood that there was no “person” seeing, hearing, etc
Lal, shared a perspective on Bahiya suttā.
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The perspective that I had about bahiya suttā was that Bahiya understood that adding san to sensory experience is what causes dukkhā.
When sound is just sound, Taste is just taste, Touch is just touch, Sight is just sight, Smell is just a smell …
And when NO San is added to sensory event that in itself is freedom and end of all dukkhā.
Mind behaves AS IF it is entity, when it is under influence of defilements. (PañcaUpādānakKhanda/Sakkāya).
Something I forgot to highlight in previous reply was that was that,
Defiled mind is possessed/Hacked mind.
Defiled mind is like when someone wears Superman costume on Halloween and start to behave as if He is Supermen; while He is not actually Superman.
Same thing happens with mind; When mind creates lustful/greedy attachments to some PañcakKhanda and creates hateful attachments to some PañcakKhanda; Mind gets Possessed/Hacked due to attachments.
It is like mind unknowingly (under influence of ignorance) creates prison for itself.
And Bahiya would must have had put lot of efforts to make spiritual progress in previous lives to have understood the dhamma so fast.
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“The perspective that I had about bahiya suttā was that Bahiya understood that adding san to sensory experience is what causes dukkhā.”
It is more than that.
- One adds “san” to the sensory experience because of the wrong view of “me” and “mine.” That is sakkaya ditthi.
- Of course, the perception (sanna) of “me” and “mine” reduces gradually and goes away entirely only at the Arahant stage.
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Lal, I want to ask you some questions;
1. More perceived pleasure in any ārammaṇa → More Assāda
2. More Assāda → More Pīḷana (when mind thinks that absolute true happiness is in PañcakKhanda, it gets stressed due to not having it.)
3. More Pīḷana → More false Pleasure is felt when that Pīḷana is reduced.
3.1 Sometimes beings become mad/insane when this Pīḷana is not relieved.
3.2 Pīḷana is reduced by having liked and not having unliked
3.3 (3.2) is not possible due to tilakkhana nature of this world.
4. So, Basically More headache is there, more the relief is felt when it is temporarily reduced or permanently reduced by dhamma paññā.
5. By perceiving happiness in something, peace in the present moment is lost. That is why kāma is like debt, right? (Debt owed to future isn’t it?)
6. In summary: Mind gets mentally hurt (in presence of ignorance) and then tries to achieve twisted pleasure by relieving itself from that very same mental suffering.
7. Pīḷana is due to PañcaUpādānakKhanda.
8. In first noble truth,
Level 1 dukkhā = Rebirth Dukkhā
Level 2 dukkhā = mundane worldly dukkhā= Having unliked, unwanted, unexpected AND Not having liked, wanted, expected
Level 3 dukkhā = Speciality of Buddha Dhamma = Reason for Pīḷana = Reason for level 2 AND level 1 dukkhā = PañcaUpādānakKhanda
Ofcourse, Level 3 dukkhā is due to vipallāsa about nature of saṅsarā.
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Are All of the above statements correct or not?
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Yes. They are correct.
- But I want to stress the importance of getting rid of sakkaya ditthi by realizing that the working of the mind is a mechanical process. I read your comment on the other thread, “Post on ‘Saṅkhāra – An Introduction’” and it seems that you have.
Let me copy and paste a part of my comment on April 3, 2023, at 8:31 am for the benefit of all:
1. Bahiya understood that there was no “person” seeing, hearing, etc.
- Seeing, hearing, etc., are just “processes,” and there is no unchanging “person” (say, Lal) seeing, hearing, etc. (P.S. Now, don’t take this to mean “Lal does not exist.” But the way he responds to a sensory event now is not the same as he would have some years back. There is no “unchanging essence in Lal.” Once Lal stops responding to ANY sensory event with even a trace of lobha, dosa, and moha (avijja), he becomes an Arahant. Then, upon death, “Lal” will not be reborn anywhere among the 31 realms. That will be the end of suffering for “Lal.” This is related to #2 below.)
- For example, see “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots’”
- Understanding that helps get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
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This kind of approach is very useful, I think.
It is great kind of method to break sakkya ditthi!
In this view, we can observe Namagotta like a log of computer!
I think it could also break a lot of avijja after sotapanna, like bottom.
Cause : Person X have a citta and saññā vipallasa that some of pañcupādānakkhandha is mine.(He just removed ditthi vipallasa)
Effect : That kind of San will lead X to many kind of suffering.
If X sees this causality correctly, he would try to remove Cause.
The process which Lal emphasized would be useful to remove San gati. Because it takes apart someone’s fantasy.
X’s avijja will be remove as much as X improves his understanding about dangerousness of San gati.
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Lal, so basically, the mind beats up itself (arising of pilana) to derive happiness from something which has no happiness. this is why pilana is constantly there.
true source of pilana is avijja and vipallasa.
Now I understand the analogy of a dog clearly. I didn’t understand it until now.
The analogy of Dog =
A dog trying to derive meat from the meatless bone gets tired and enjoys its own blood.
Mind is like that foolish dog when Vipallasa is there.
Happiness is like a mirage (Only in perception).
We don’t find happiness in this world BECAUSE it doesn’t exist more than a mirage exists in the desert.
Happiness exists only in the wrong perception of the world.
this is why no one finds any permanent satisfaction AND in addition, everyone finds so much suffering in the world when trying to look for it.
The Story of foolish men trying to find a lost object under the light
It is like a foolish man who had lost his ring somewhere in the dark part of the street but was trying to find it in the area where there was light. How could someone find something, which is not there?Happiness/Peace is not found due to everyone looking for it in the wrong place (in the six senses), where nibbana cannot ever be found.
Because no one is there to tell us that we are looking at the wrong place, we are forever looking for it.
In a hopelessly hopeful manner.
Everywhere in the UNIVERSE, so many things are there, which can be sensed through the six senses, but all of them are utterly useless for purpose of permanent happiness. The IRONY of EXISTENCE is that the thing that is actually helpful (Nibbana) cannot be sensed through any of the six senses.
This was the whole point of the recent JBM sermon.
Link to JBM sermon: “The sound of silence”
Trying to find happiness via the six senses is like trying to hear the ‘sound of silence”.
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OK. Good.
I want to clarify two points based on the above discussion and that on the other thread, “Post on ‘Saṅkhāra – An Introduction’”.
1. Bottom line: Mano sankhara can be abhisankhara. However, mano sankhara cannot bring future rebirths via “janaka kamma.”
- I revised my previous interpretation based on the evidence I discussed in both threads.
- In particular, it assumes that the first two javana citta in a citta vithi have only mano sankhara. This bit of information came from a discourse by Waharaka Thero. I have not seen citta vithi discussed to that depth in the Tipitaka. If we find a direct reference in the Tipitaka, we may need to revise it again.
- Thanks to Dosakkhayo and LDF for bringing the issue to focus.
2. Kammic energy is not created in a single citta vithi but via millions of them.
- As mentioned above, one post describing this process is “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots.’”
- For example, an object is “seen” after the brain processes over ten “scans” of that object. Each scan may take a hundredth of a second (these data from modern science.) Millions of citta vithi process each such snapshot.
- Therefore, kammic energy “builds up” gradually over millions of citta vithis within a second. Of course, we perceive it to happen in “one shot.”
- Writing down these details in a post of 2-3 pages is impossible.
Feel free to ask questions on either of the above two issues.
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