[gopinadh]

Sir I submit two questions, and request for kind comments from Seniors here,  when having time:

1:

 Sir,  in Sn 1.1:  Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood,link to sutta the Lord is questioned and answers as follows:

But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?” <Lords Reply>:- “When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.”

If  paticca samuppada is taken as a flood of becoming(bhava), how is the reply given by the Lord in the above Sutta to be properly understood?

2:

Is there room and place for inner transformation in Dhamma? Not in the sense of becoming something more, but a qualitative transformation. For instance, the example given by Lal sir of  Mundane Sila becoming Ariyakanta Sila, when one understands Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada is an example of such qualitative transformation/change/shift.

In paticca samputpada cycle, or in  the framework built with  allied concepts such as Punna kamma, Kusala Kamma, Rupa and Arupa Bhavas etc  where does such qualitative transformation in an individual and his life come in,  and to what extent? Is it limited to the scope of doing punna and getting good births till kamma bhava’s potency zeroes to produce any further upapatthi? Like an vending machine which gives you a chips packet or a biscuit packet or a drink commensurate  with the money you deposit inside? for instance I do jhana now, the machine will throw out  brahma bhava next? Like that. Or does it run deeper , where in , such concepts are not the end in themselves and are perhaps offshoots of panna and should always be combined and studied as such with  the bigger picture and not as silos? Discussed as silos it becomes very difficult for beginners like me to get a wholistic understanding.   what constitutes such wholistic framework(broadly at one place)?  

Regards sir.

• This reply was modified 56 minutes ago by gopinadh.
• This reply was modified 35 minutes ago by gopinadh.

[gopinadh]

Sir Lang, 

Thank you for staying on the topic. There are multiple references which “catogerize” Nibbana as paramattha dhamma. Some are also made kindly available,  on this site itself. example: Nibbana Exists

I would also like to draw due attention to what Lal Sir has said : – “we must be able to understand the usage of words based on the context”.

By trying to build on Mr Lang’s suggestion , with overall reliance on  Lal Sirs guidance , it is perhaps then, that  in the following verse 279 of Dhammapada , being discussed,  :- //sabbe dhammā anattā’ti yadā paññāya passati | atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā// …..the words “sabbe dhamma ” do not include  or refer to Nibbana/Asankhata Paramatta Dhamma.

In which case “sabbe dhamma anatta” can be mapped to Sila ( seeing Anicca/Dukkha/Anatta- is Highest Morality we can aspire to ), “Pannaya Passati”  can be mapped to Panna  & “nibbindati dukkhe” to Samadhi (in the sense of “sam” and “adhi” – gets optimally set & settled away from Dukkha and towards Nibbana).   

The result (of Development of Sila, Panna and Samadhi)  is  perhaps being signified in the same verse by “visuddhiya” which cannot be anything else than Nibbana. 

In this backdrop, reading the three verses 277 to 279 of dhammapada Link to Dhmpada V 277 to 279 makes me ponder ,  that when the events and things in our Lives are measured as Processes (Waves), we get Sankhara referred to in  the first two verses, and when we have to measure them as Points or at a Point (Inputs and outputs of these Processes),   we have our Dhammas of the 3rd verse . Nibbana , Being Pure (visuddha)  neither Wave(rs)  nor  gets  spacio-temporalized (As one more  Point in the SanSara) .But because Nibbana  exists ,  it is included as Asankhata Paramattha Dhamma in Abhidhamma , where the scope and context  are different.. 

I think this settles the issue, to my satisfaction, for which i am grateful to Lal Sir and Mr Lang. 

Its been a very plesant evening , fruitful and meditative. Thank you.

PS: Please Feel free to correct Sirs.

[gopinadh]

Thanks Sir for correcting the Title. I also apologize and am sure will be forgiven.  

Sir the following is the reference for Nibbana  being considered as an asankhata dhamma from this site

Tables and Summaries

And thus,  my request,…. to understand the matter which i raised ,  in the correct way Sir.  

Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata. 

[gopinadh]

Sir, thanks a lot. I went through the lesson(posts) indicated by you.

I submit, to request to, dwell further deeper. 

In the said  post  “anuloma-khanti-sammattaniyama-pre-requisites-for-a-sotapanna/” the word Dhamma is explained  (within the scope of the post) as referring to “sankhata Dhamma”:  the relevant content is at point 6 which i have copied below:

“Dhammā (with a long-a) are the seeds that result when saṅkhāra are cultivated. “Dhammā” means to “bear things in this world.” But anything thus generated will not lead to a “nicca outcome,” and all those efforts are fruitless. Thus, all “dhammā” generated are of “anatta nature.”

Under Abhidhamma,  Nibbana or Nirvana, is classified as an Asankhata Dhamma.(the only one)

With this as the background, i beg to again ask , that in the  Dhammapada Verse 279, the word “Sabbe” is used , which if applied to the first level catogerization of Dhamma, would imply both Sankhata and Asankhata Dhamma. How should we then understand it? 

Thats my doubt sir.  The Meaning of Anatta is not being asked/questioned .

Regards Sir. I request  , to help me to learn more (correctly) on this issue.

 

[gopinadh]

Thank you Triple Gem , 

I find it really inspiring,   the work that you are putting in. My energy too is now aroused reading your post. Isnt this what is expected from these forums? I am very happy i could come across Lal Sirs Website. 

Anyway , in the above posts, from my side , i was forced into contemplating a technicality , due to Lal Sirs first reply. In few words, it is this: 

• Vedana We feel. Right? Sukha, Dukha or AsukhamAdukham. (The third one the elders say,  is very difficult to track, and one has to track it like,  tracking an animal through its foot prints)
• But obivously , studying Dhamma,  we all can sense a far more deeper Dukha than that  which is included in Vedana, which i call(borrowing Lal Sirs Lessons) as Dukkha with a double K. 

Now the difficult question for me was , do I  “feel” it? or  “understand” it? ( The Deeper Dukkha?).  All  my  answers (right or wrong)  came by-themselves after going into this question.  This question, subtly comes up in Lal Sirs first reply. I beg , not to consider my second reply as an option , against this question, because this question yeilds far more richer(truer) answers than i came up with. What I called as “understanding” seems to be more deeper, richer than i so carelessly thought. But this is not like a specific thread one “must” pursue. If it comes while contemplating “Dukkha” it comes. So i think.    

PS: To go through , Lal Sirs references on Sanna, that is still pending form my side. I am held up on the posts on “sati”. This reply is only to thank and more imp , serve as sort of an audit trail,  to understand why this question, atleast to me is important and a bit complex one.  

Regards.

[gopinadh]

Yes Sir. Will do. Regards Sir.

[gopinadh]

In case Dukkha (double k) conveys suffering which can be overcome, then it fits in like a glove with the First Sacca which is about the “Future Suffering”

And therefore as Lal Sir,  says: (“Does First NT Describe only suffering”): –

“birth is suffering (that can be overcome). Getting old is suffering (that can be overcome). Sickness is suffering (that can be overcome). Death is suffering (that can be overcome)..”.  

Whereas I have submitted “ It is Dukkha itself is perceived as Sukham, Dukham, and the AdukhamaSukham. i.e,….(using Lal Sirs,  tools,  to fine tune my submission):-  

This forces us to answer:

• How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha
• If so “Where” is it “Felt” or is it something which is “understood”/”wisdom”?
• Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?

Whereas,  my submissions in continuation of the first post, are:

• Dukkha with a Double K, is felt as Sukha when it is serviced (one mode of concealment) well, as Dukha when cannot be further tolerated (glitch in the concealment)  and as Adukhamasukha when totally concealed up by ignorance.
• It is Felt (in body and mind) and can be understood in Mind
• Yes Everything is Dukkha, without any qualifications. Dukkha with a double k- is overcome in toto(no more) by the Arahant,  while Dukha of Mind which comes from Dukkha with a Double K , is overcome by others. Arahant overcomes it by Nibbana, others start to overcome it,   gradually(from Dukha in Mind to Dukkha with Doible K),  through vision and practise (8 fold path).
• Only When Eveything is Dukkha , that there is absolutely Nothing to Cling to. That is the vision. 

Therefore , that everything  is suffering (without any qualifications, either in its defintion of Dukkha or coverage) is the “Vision which starts to set free” – without any qualifications. That “this” is Dukkha is itself the Wisdom which set one,  on the path to freedom.  

In which case :

  “birth is suffering {that is overcome by seeing RIGHT NOW (as Dukha) & that can be overcome IN FUTURE (Dukkha with a double K) } and so on and so forth with aging, sickness , death etc….

Come on sirs,  I literally beg to learn more. Fine tune it more. I will feel delighted if someone corrects it. Dont be silent on this novice bhikkhu! Lord will not like it. Didint you read about Thera Cūlapanthaka? He too was  good for nothing  like me, when he joined the Order. 

[gopinadh]

Yes Sir. Will do. Regards Sir. 

[gopinadh]

Sirs, Good Evening…I would like to thank Ariyaratna Sir for the patient reply. Sir, I do not expect a easy way out, at the same time , I have to act now. Burning Burning……Anyway, Sir Pls comment Add, Improve

The Link to the sutta https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

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Yash RS

[gopinadh]

Pinnaduwage Sir Thanks a lot! Your energy and drive are something to be truly jealous of. If you were in India, I would be roaming about your house, to learn from you. And I would have  kept nagging  you a lot , because it’s a lot easier to nag in person than online.

By the way many Srilankan Cricketers seem to be  Pinnaduwage Sir? Aravinda de silva , the Mad Max of cricket, Hasaranga, Chaturanga De Silva……hmmmm.  

Anyway Sir, Venerable Waharaka Thera says,  in one of the videos with English subs, that the Lord had the power to quickly identify the technique most suitable for a person depending on his or her inclinations/strengths  (shradda, virya, sati, pragna). He used to preach to that person accordingly and they attained Magga Phala instantly. 

 For instance, Sanna Vipallasa Or Adinava( as elucidated by you as Health Issues), should be sufficient for those with high Pragna perhaps, to overcome the habit/desire. I do not have faith, nor wisdom , nor virya. But I can “sense”,  somehow as though as I have done it (known it) before.

Obviously , we cant expect everyone to get connected to everything, in toto.

However Is there a broad or a standard framework  prescribed by the Vaijja (the Great Doctor) for those who are willing to learn and work on it?  Not just  cigarette but breaking free of Sensual Pleasures as such?

From that template as a platform,  perhaps one can proceed, progress, internalize.

Of course I am not expecting any spoon feeding Sir (not that I will complain if provided), but a Standard Framework? Is it there Sir?   

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Yash RS

[gopinadh]

Sir(s) I have revised my draft of Dhamma Chakka Pavatta (DCP) Sutta. (I will be revisiting it, for it is giving me great joy) . And once it is in good shape I will post it here,  if I continue to feel that it will have some  utility and of assistance to others.

More importantly, 

I studied Ariyaratna Sir’s concept of Ichha, Niccha and Aniccha. I had to !, because I got stuck in the sutta. Especially at the start of  the Four Noble Truths. I now understand , why some scholars mistakenly thought ,  it was not an original part of the sutta and was inserted later.

It was followed by  some serious homework, based on Ariyaratna Sir’s lesson on these 3 terms .

The following is to present the basic framework , within which I will try and revise DCP

………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Icca/Iccha is Desire.

Nicca/Niccha is our belief that Iccha or Icchas in Life can be fulfilled.

This is the basic outlook on Life. We are sure (100%, nay a 1000%) that Life “is”, there  to  enjoy, and it is an avenue to fulfil our Desires. To us,  “Suffering”,  is an unfortunate event , which sometimes happen. But,  even with these sporadic events of Suffering (minor or major) our belief in Life , that it is meant for fulfilling our desires, remains unshaken. To us, Life( as we know and live it) is one Biiiiig Iccha!

From hence forth I will not attempt to try and explain in detail, for I am finding it difficult to articulate in logical terms,  the facts I experience, but as all of you are in advance stages when compared to me(already traversed these), it shouldn’t be a problem.

1. If Nicca/Niccha was a fact (in Life- as we know it & live it) then life should end as soon as an event is completed. For instance I am sleeping and in the middle of the night I turn that way to change the sleeping position. 
2. If Life ( as we know & live) was nicca/niccha , there should have been an ending (ending with a capital E)  as soon as the turn was completed. A full stop Sirs. Are you with me?
3. But it doesn’t , I continue to sleep , wake up and life ( as we know& live)goes on, because it is Anicca/Aniccha. It is not in its own hands. It can never stand fulfilled. (Dhammapada 186, 187- there is no satisfying desires….).
4. If this View of Anicca is applied to our own “sense of being” then amazing doorways open.
5. The whole structure(me, my sense of being, My being or Being, –  call it whatever),  while it stands with lots and lots of promise, in fact, it is Anicca, can never ever be fulfilled. Like Hunger, a wound, it is always open.
6. In contrast to these facts, my life( as I know and live it) involves investing a lot of Ichha in my own being and Life as a whole. In fact, to me, Life( as I live it) is One Biig Iccha, while in reality, along with not being in its own hands, its nature is Aniccha.

And that’s it sir,  – Tampichham na labati Dukkham.

Sirs, please correct/add/improve.

[gopinadh]

Thanks Ariyaratna Sir. Will do it.

Reagrds sir.  

[gopinadh]

Sirs this will be the last but one post to continue my meditation on the sutta

 This small post will be followed by table 3 where the 4 Aryan truths will be submitted, thereby completing the “engine” of the sutta.

Why do we want to live a life that follows the Eightfold Way, sir? Why do we take up dhamma?

Sirs, one day, I saw a lady feeding leftover rice to some street dogs. Until then, it was all fine. Suddenly, she pulled out a phone and started taking selfies with the feeding dogs in the background. It would obviously end up on Facebook or some other tube. Is it vulgar? But that’s our value system now, sir.

Why do we take up Dhamma sirs?

Perhaps then,  I am “ more” than the average person. I feel “ good”?

Or may be I will become Sotapanna, next that, next something more…

Like, I will become a millionaire, next billionaire, next top ten.

One year back, a girl was stabbed in my country 16 times, sir. No one intervened. Why should I sir? What if I die? Who will feed my children?

Last week, however, in Delhi, two men intervened sir and helped a victim.

These two men are Aryans, sir.

Every grain we eat is cultivated by this society. Our eyes look into galaxies and distant stars, but not into what’s happening around us.

We have programmed ourselves to live with contradictions, suffering, and conflict. Somehow, if we can live this life, like this way and that way, and die peacefully….we feel we have done it. However, even pigs do the same. Sirs, haven’t we seen little piglets already practicing mating? That is us, sir.

Aryans (elders) are those who are able to see the disorder, conflict, and contradictions in our lives. What a meaningless rut they have become: filled with fears, desires, hurts, loss, suffering, and the same in the world out there.

And that’s why Aryans take up dhamma, sir. Aryans genuinely see it. Like the two men who helped the victim. It comes from the inside, from their bones.

For Aryans, it’s their duty, sir, to win back order and end the cycle of dukkha, not just for themselves but also for the society that has fed, clothed, and housed them.

The four truths section explains how Aryans see and act upon the four truths. It reveals how deep and serious our servitude to the 2 extremes(disorders) is, which we are amazingly unaware of and sometimes refuse to see. The section also elucidates further the mechanism of suffering. Eventually, it explains how serious the eightfold path is and why it is the Duty of the Aryans.

[gopinadh]

Table 2:Further meditation on the Dhamma Chakka Pavattana

I apologize for certain spelling and grammatical mistakes in the first table. I will revise(keep revising) , which will more importantly  include your suggestions. The following is from the point where we left at table 1.

Table 2

Sn	Lines in Pali	Translation with Notes
5	Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante an·upagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhu·karaṇī  ñāṇa·karaṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya  nibbānāya saṃvattati.	Now bhikkhus , there is a path which steers clear (anupagama) from servitude to pleasure as well as servitude to pain. This path  discovered and traversed by Buddhas of the past , present and to come,  generates (for those who follow suit),  a light – on to oneself (abhinaya), understanding and eventually culminates in nibbana. As tathagatha I assure you, that every step taken in this path (prati pada) instils and deepens(samvattati)  ones vision ,  knowledge. Each Step on this path ,  powers up new found  freedom(upasamaya) in Life,  from which confidence, and morality and countless merits flow. Note: Tatagatha is the Lord who speaks as it actually is. Note 2: Here in these lines, the Wheel of Dhamma is perhaps introduced – counter positioning it against the Wheel of Suffering constituted by  the two extremes.  Each step in the Wheel of Dhamma – generates purities as much as each step in the cycle of suffering generates defilements. Could this be what Thera Anna Kondanna Saw? Just as there exists a cycle of suffering-  there exists the wheel of dhamma? As common men we are blind to existence of such a rich life.
6	Katamā ca sā, bhikkhave, majjhimā paṭipadā  tathāgatena abhisambuddhā  cakkhu·karaṇī ñāṇa·karaṇī upasamāya abhiññāya   sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati? Ayam·eva   ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ:  sammā·diṭṭhi   sammā·saṅkappo  sammā·vācā  sammā·kammanto  sammā·ājīvo  sammā·vāyāmo  sammā·sati  sammā·samādhi.  Ayaṃ kho sā, bhikkhave, majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā   cakkhu·karaṇī ñāṇa·karaṇī upasamāya  abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.	Now bhikkhus comes the practise. It is eightfold. 1.    Do not let your perspective be blinded by enslavement to   pleasure and pain. 2.    Do not let your intention and thoughts be subservient to pleasure and pain. 3.    Do not let  your speech be hijacked by passion and attachment to pleasure or pain 4.    Do not let your actions spring from servitude to pleasure and pain 5.    Ensure your living is not entrenched in constant pursuit of pleasure and hidden subjugation to pain 6.    Ensure your efforts are not wasted nor dissipated  in constant pursuit of pleasure or running away from pain 7.    Be mindful , alert and guard all of the above, in body and mind,  against being enslaved by Pleasure and pain. 8.    With the above 7 you fall in the “Zone”, sharpen and develop that “Zone”  by which all the 7 are  further developed and so on – the Cycle (Wheel of Dhamma) goes on until one reaches Nibbana.    This is the practise , this is the contemplation, this constitutes the meditation and practise. These 8 are the pistons which fire up and move (samvattati) the wheel of dhamma.

Please correct/add/improve

[gopinadh]

Namo Sugata.

Ariyaratna Sir has given a superb homework.

In one of the jataka Tales, when Buddha was still a Bodhisattva in previous births, He  used to camp every year , at a Kings Garden for one of the seasons (at the Kings request).

He used to come out of his seclusion , when the season started,  and used to camp there, to address laymen, philosophers and so on,  till the season was completed, and then he used go back to his seclusion in the Mountains. He was well equipped with iddhis, super human powers and so on.

During one visit, when the King was away on war, the queen had to serve the Bodhisattwa. At one in-appropriate moment, the Bodhisattwa sees her beauty inadvertently, and gets mentally disturbed. He immediately retreats to his Hut.

When the King  comes back, he sees the Bodisattwa lying down, sick. Alarmed the King  rolls him over this side and that side to see if there are any wounds. To the king,  the Bodhisattwa replies “King I have been wounded by the arrow of Sensual Desire”.

Saying so , the Bodhisattwa gets back into his Meditation Posture , and there and there itself , puts an end to the defilement which has arisen and blessing the King and Queen,  flies back to the Mountains.

Sir(s) , the story also says when such great mountains are moved  by winds of desire and simply get rolled over, how much more so,  in the case of  common  minds like ours? – The Jataka itself gives a simile: just like old leaves which have already fallen down from the trees – they simply get blown away!

Jhana Helps , me thinks , to enable us not to get blown or flown  away.

Jhana which helps us to “fly away” ( super human power in this sense)  is not the Jhana which our Lord taught,

But rather the  Jhana which gives one the real super power of “not  getting flown/blown away” , till magga is reached , is what was taught by Sugata. Samma sati and samma Samadhi.

regards Sir(s). Pls correct/improve

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