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Pathfinder: am also very grateful for everyone’s explanations here, it is my first time on this forum and I am heartened by your efforts in helping me understand!
Big words for me pathfinder. I am in the same boat boss, if not in the one behind. There is a treasure trove of dhamma here at this site given by Lal Sir in his kindness and there are many users of these forums who seem to have a very deep understanding of the concepts given by Lal Sir . For instance tobi-obivously his depth reflects all the work he must have put in.
Whenever I post , i post with this in mind and that i am only being given an opportunity to express and learn. This is done with a lot of patience by lal sir and senior members when they reply and chip in.
In the times we are going through , where insanity seems to prevail , this is yet another oasis.
All the best.
Ps: guys it seems singapore unfortunately has a sudden spurt of Covid cases. They are projecting a wave there soon in and around june/july. . Only minimal advisories like wearing masks have been so far issued. The variant is not a critical one it seems. Things as of now seem under control.
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Tobi , thank you.
I would like to submit that what yash said, is profound , because then ,in that pure instant of “giving” he or she in ” giving” transcends his own self and conditioning.
I think , It opens open a door way to see the potentiality for ” purity” or”immensity” which anyone or everyone is capable of.
In such giving the psychological tomorrow ( upadana paccaya bhava) comes to an end and all “having” is recognized to be anicca,dukkha and anatta.
And bhavana is to tune back to this immensity( potentiality). In such ” jhana” the defilements get burnt. ( jhayati).
I therefore think tobi, that bhavana either it be in metta bhavana or mudita bhavana etc is more about tuning back to this potential and regaining it. This potential includes ” mudita” , “metta”,….etc and eventually nibbana.
In that tuning these deeds get done with effort like in the case of laymen like me, once tuned (magga phala commences) they flow. This is the flow or sota , perhaps,which all aspire to enter( sota panna). In that natural flow all order and discipline in ones life, flow seamlessly without the need for getting imposed from outside(silabatta paramasa).
Please add/ correct it toby. I tried to connect various lessons.regards.
Sir i would like to first submit that i now finished going through the links including the Metta Bhavana Sutta Link in Tobi’s post.
I dont know why no one is answering the original question directly or taking it to a logical end- point blank as Yash RS did.
Yash RS: If someone gives only to expect some benefit in return, that is a stained thought as it doesn’t really involve compassion and kindness, it involves greed.
Wow, Thats enough for me. One can take it or leave it.
To Path finder :
Sir can i submit something? I have just started to read the links to the basics which Lal sir posted. But your observations resonate so beautifully. We learn of a concept called “silabatta paramasa” – one of the three fetters which a Stream Enterer -Sotapanna – transcends. I will try and articulate my submission with an example:
Example: Something inside me tells me, not to harm animals for my food. (Basically not only mine, everyones mind is Pure. Or inside everyone is Metta/Karuna/Softness. This is only an example and i am not suggesting any right or wrong on eating meat- please). However, coming back to the example , i cant abstain from eating meat because of various reasons such as habit etc , so- i slowly start inculcating a habit of gradually reducing the concumption, listening to my “iner voice” . In as much i try and abstain and am still cultivating the habit, these concepts and tools (such as Punna Kamma) will help me- to focus back – to stay on the track and are the only way i can listen and implement my inner voice. However its still a conflict , a struggle. Its silabatta paramasa. A discipline is required , if at all i have to live as a sane human being – but imposed from outside and i try and comply with it – seeing the facts.
But just like fruit which ripen, winds that blows across the fields- making the tall grass dance , my heart eventually falls in its place. Right Actions come without any “effort”. Now , i need not worry to keep on track and from abstaining bad deeds . All i do is holistic, i have dropped eating meat now “naturally”. In fact i have forgotten about it. (example sirs.)
Here we can see all the Metta in its full grace. Here all individuals/individuality disappear. Man to man, man to animals, man to society, husband and wife- i dont know. Life blossoms in full glory in such relationships. The individual is not at all in conflict within himself , while so responding “correctly” and as required to the situation. That is, his intentions, actions and requirements -morally, socially are in harmony- no friction at all. He has transcended Silabatta paramasa. A “discpline” which was earlier imposed from outside and had to be implemented with great care and effort, now flows naturally. If it is required it flows out, else it rests.
///I am now in my 40s, may be another 20, 30 or 40 – who knows-?
but even long after i am gone and my bones become dust, there will always be a helping hand , somewehere – someone – whose heart beats out- now does it matter an iota -that it will not be “mine” or “yours”? if so – isnt it where i too – will go when i have to go? ///
Just my submission sir. Am i correct sir? please tell me . (i could be much much older to you- “Sir” is just a protocol, so please dont mind).
- Sirs, i missed out GAD… kindly forgive.
2. Sir , noted and will avoid brighter colors, will also try and go through the links carefully and get back if any doubts.
3. I recognize that this is an advanced topic , therefore its my bad , for asking doubts without going through the basics given here and first understanding them – this i will try and avoid in the future as well. I am thinking i better avoid these topics as they seem very far away from what , at my level, I understand “practise” to be.
I would also like to make it clear and submit, that I was thrown into thinking on these things which I posted or drew(in my effort to articulate) , because I wondered how learning a Brahma Dies , and what happens to His Kamma , helps one in his or her day to day practise.
Because at my level, I see disorder and inner conflict, I see a great blindness in my life , which snuffles out joy and happiness and these things challenge me. These demand quite a lot of sincerety and intensity at my level , therefore I might not relate to such questions , and definitely also because iam yet to strongly grasp the basics. That is all Sirs.
Anyway, thanks Sir(s) once again for your pateince. Bear with me sirs , bear with me.
Ariyaratna Sir, thank you.I would like to briefly revise, what I could learn from this post:
What I wanted to Know:
If PS is seen as a flood between two banks, anyone wanting to reach the other shore, can neither afford to simply plunge in nor try swim against the force of the current to reach the other side. How would one cross it, if PS is a fixed, arcane cycle with everything set and included within it?, meaning no matter what one does , the outcomes are within the cycle & its “flow”. Plunging/plainly landing in – would mean “kamasukha allika anuyogo”, and swimming against it would be “attakilamatha anuyogo”.
Answers I found upon reflecting on Lal Sirs answers and giving time:
The simile of the flood , I think, is exactly, meant to wake us up to the impossible situation we are caught in. in other words there is no solution to it in terms of routine logic. Mundane Logic which is driven by either one of the two extremes of “kamasukha allika anuyogo” or “attakilamatha anuyogo” does not include the answer. What’s required perhaps, is a less intoxicated and out of the box solution which is “majjima patipada”.
In this Transcendental Logic (majjima patipada) one first realizes of the impossible situation He or She is caught in(vipassana), along with the realization that there is a certain “Space” (samatha) from which He is able to so correctly see (samma ditthi). That is, both vipassana and samatha.
There is only one Bank , the one on which He was always standing or could ever hope to go, which is his own “Pure Mind”- which provides the “space” (samma ditthi) to rightly see the fact (dukka sacca/PS).
Turning it the other way round , with Samma Ditthi one has in-fact started to tune into the Pure Mind (Nibbana). The “flood” or “waters” have started to still!. From there on, Kamma (Punna or Kusala) help to completely still these waters (or help achieve re-births , progressively, which are more attuned to Nibbana(Pure Mind)).
Doing Good can be enjoyed just for the sake of it (ex: Karuna-Samatha) and can also be enjoyed for constituting the correct practice(vipassana).
PS:
These observations could generate overlapping questions (idealism, atta bava etc etc , especially when we use words like “pure mind” , but I assure you these are not my intentions and I am looking at the present concern, psychologically). But even these apprehensions too, I believe, can be answered , but that requires working out and presenting a more broader philosophy, which is not required here and now and more importantly, which I am not capable of.
That’s it from my side sir. Kindly correct if required. I would like to humbly thank Dosakkhayo, Tobias G, Yash RS for starting this post, taking part and chipping in with wonderful insights.
Have a good day sirs. Kindly correct/improve /add that might be required.
Sir I submit two questions, and request for kind comments from Seniors here, when having time:
1: Sir, in Sn 1.1: Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood, link to sutta the Lord is questioned and answers as follows:
But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?” <Lords Reply>:- “When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.”
If paticca samuppada is taken as a flood of becoming(bhava), how is the reply given by the Lord in the above Sutta to be properly understood?
2: Is there room and place for inner transformation in Dhamma? Not in the sense of becoming something more, but a qualitative transformation. For instance, the example given by Lal sir of Mundane Sila becoming Ariyakanta Sila, when one understands Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada is an example of such qualitative transformation/change/shift.
In paticca samputpada cycle, or in the framework built with allied concepts such as Punna kamma, Kusala Kamma, Rupa and Arupa Bhavas etc where does such qualitative transformation in an individual and his life come in, and to what extent? Is it limited to the scope of doing punna and getting good births till kamma bhava’s potency zeroes to produce any further upapatthi? Like an vending machine which gives you a chips packet or a biscuit packet or a drink commensurate with the money you deposit inside? for instance I do jhana now, the machine will throw out brahma bhava next? Like that. Or does it run deeper , where in , such concepts are not the end in themselves and are perhaps offshoots of panna and should always be combined and studied as such with the bigger picture and not as silos? Discussed as silos it becomes very difficult for beginners like me to get a wholistic understanding. what constitutes such wholistic framework(broadly at one place)?
Regards sir.
Sir Lang,
Thank you for staying on the topic. There are multiple references which “catogerize” Nibbana as paramattha dhamma. Some are also made kindly available, on this site itself. example: Nibbana Exists
I would also like to draw due attention to what Lal Sir has said : – “we must be able to understand the usage of words based on the context”.
By trying to build on Mr Lang’s suggestion , with overall reliance on Lal Sirs guidance , it is perhaps then, that in the following verse 279 of Dhammapada , being discussed, :- //sabbe dhammā anattā’ti yadā paññāya passati | atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā// …..the words “sabbe dhamma ” do not include or refer to Nibbana/Asankhata Paramatta Dhamma.
In which case “sabbe dhamma anatta” can be mapped to Sila ( seeing Anicca/Dukkha/Anatta- is Highest Morality we can aspire to ), “Pannaya Passati” can be mapped to Panna & “nibbindati dukkhe” to Samadhi (in the sense of “sam” and “adhi” – gets optimally set & settled away from Dukkha and towards Nibbana).
The result (of Development of Sila, Panna and Samadhi) is perhaps being signified in the same verse by “visuddhiya” which cannot be anything else than Nibbana.
In this backdrop, reading the three verses 277 to 279 of dhammapada Link to Dhmpada V 277 to 279 makes me ponder , that when the events and things in our Lives are measured as Processes (Waves), we get Sankhara referred to in the first two verses, and when we have to measure them as Points or at a Point (Inputs and outputs of these Processes), we have our Dhammas of the 3rd verse . Nibbana , Being Pure (visuddha) neither Wave(rs) nor gets spacio-temporalized (As one more Point in the SanSara) .But because Nibbana exists , it is included as Asankhata Paramattha Dhamma in Abhidhamma , where the scope and context are different..
I think this settles the issue, to my satisfaction, for which i am grateful to Lal Sir and Mr Lang.
Its been a very plesant evening , fruitful and meditative. Thank you.
PS: Please Feel free to correct Sirs.
Thanks Sir for correcting the Title. I also apologize and am sure will be forgiven.
Sir the following is the reference for Nibbana being considered as an asankhata dhamma from this site
And thus, my request,…. to understand the matter which i raised , in the correct way Sir.
Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata.
Sir, thanks a lot. I went through the lesson(posts) indicated by you.
I submit, to request to, dwell further deeper.
In the said post “anuloma-khanti-sammattaniyama-pre-requisites-for-a-sotapanna/” the word Dhamma is explained (within the scope of the post) as referring to “sankhata Dhamma”: the relevant content is at point 6 which i have copied below:
“Dhammā (with a long-a) are the seeds that result when saṅkhāra are cultivated. “Dhammā” means to “bear things in this world.” But anything thus generated will not lead to a “nicca outcome,” and all those efforts are fruitless. Thus, all “dhammā” generated are of “anatta nature.”
Under Abhidhamma, Nibbana or Nirvana, is classified as an Asankhata Dhamma.(the only one)
With this as the background, i beg to again ask , that in the Dhammapada Verse 279, the word “Sabbe” is used , which if applied to the first level catogerization of Dhamma, would imply both Sankhata and Asankhata Dhamma. How should we then understand it?
Thats my doubt sir. The Meaning of Anatta is not being asked/questioned .
Regards Sir. I request , to help me to learn more (correctly) on this issue.
Thank you Triple Gem ,
I find it really inspiring, the work that you are putting in. My energy too is now aroused reading your post. Isnt this what is expected from these forums? I am very happy i could come across Lal Sirs Website.
Anyway , in the above posts, from my side , i was forced into contemplating a technicality , due to Lal Sirs first reply. In few words, it is this:
- Vedana We feel. Right? Sukha, Dukha or AsukhamAdukham. (The third one the elders say, is very difficult to track, and one has to track it like, tracking an animal through its foot prints)
- But obivously , studying Dhamma, we all can sense a far more deeper Dukha than that which is included in Vedana, which i call(borrowing Lal Sirs Lessons) as Dukkha with a double K.
Now the difficult question for me was , do I “feel” it? or “understand” it? ( The Deeper Dukkha?). All my answers (right or wrong) came by-themselves after going into this question. This question, subtly comes up in Lal Sirs first reply. I beg , not to consider my second reply as an option , against this question, because this question yeilds far more richer(truer) answers than i came up with. What I called as “understanding” seems to be more deeper, richer than i so carelessly thought. But this is not like a specific thread one “must” pursue. If it comes while contemplating “Dukkha” it comes. So i think.
PS: To go through , Lal Sirs references on Sanna, that is still pending form my side. I am held up on the posts on “sati”. This reply is only to thank and more imp , serve as sort of an audit trail, to understand why this question, atleast to me is important and a bit complex one.
Regards.
In case Dukkha (double k) conveys suffering which can be overcome, then it fits in like a glove with the First Sacca which is about the “Future Suffering”
And therefore as Lal Sir, says: (“Does First NT Describe only suffering”): –
“birth is suffering (that can be overcome). Getting old is suffering (that can be overcome). Sickness is suffering (that can be overcome). Death is suffering (that can be overcome)..”.
Whereas I have submitted “ It is Dukkha itself is perceived as Sukham, Dukham, and the AdukhamaSukham. i.e,….(using Lal Sirs, tools, to fine tune my submission):-
This forces us to answer:
- How can Dukkha be felt as Sukha, Dukha and AdukhamaSukha
- If so “Where” is it “Felt” or is it something which is “understood”/”wisdom”?
- Is everything Dukkha? If so “what” is overcome and “how”?
Whereas, my submissions in continuation of the first post, are:
- Dukkha with a Double K, is felt as Sukha when it is serviced (one mode of concealment) well, as Dukha when cannot be further tolerated (glitch in the concealment) and as Adukhamasukha when totally concealed up by ignorance.
- It is Felt (in body and mind) and can be understood in Mind
- Yes Everything is Dukkha, without any qualifications. Dukkha with a double k- is overcome in toto(no more) by the Arahant, while Dukha of Mind which comes from Dukkha with a Double K , is overcome by others. Arahant overcomes it by Nibbana, others start to overcome it, gradually(from Dukha in Mind to Dukkha with Doible K), through vision and practise (8 fold path).
- Only When Eveything is Dukkha , that there is absolutely Nothing to Cling to. That is the vision.
Therefore , that everything is suffering (without any qualifications, either in its defintion of Dukkha or coverage) is the “Vision which starts to set free” – without any qualifications. That “this” is Dukkha is itself the Wisdom which set one, on the path to freedom.
In which case :
“birth is suffering {that is overcome by seeing RIGHT NOW (as Dukha) & that can be overcome IN FUTURE (Dukkha with a double K) } and so on and so forth with aging, sickness , death etc….
Come on sirs, I literally beg to learn more. Fine tune it more. I will feel delighted if someone corrects it. Dont be silent on this novice bhikkhu! Lord will not like it. Didint you read about Thera Cūlapanthaka? He too was good for nothing like me, when he joined the Order.
