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On page 127, you can see that “investigating consciousness” does not only perform the function of “investigating” inside a CV, but also the function of Bhavanga, which might be what we are looking for, because this is the citta that precedes the functional “Manodvara citta” inside a Minddoor process, and also it is a resultant (vipaka).
What do you think?
Page 127 should explain it.I want to try to write what I think to your discussion.
On page 43 in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, he lists the unwholesome-resultant cittas, the wholesome- resultant cittas and the functional cittas that comprise all the rootless cittas.
In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article. Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.
I think the name for these is referring to their function, as in “receiving consciousness” does the job of “receiving” in a Citta vitthi. But not necessarily, I think, because there is a list at page 127, that you also refer to already, where it is explained in more detail.
The same holds for the wholesome-vipakas, here there is a whole-some vipaka citta called “investigating consciousness” (with equanimity, and also with joy).
I think the citta that you refer to in this discussion should be the citta Nr. 19 (unwholesome investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity) as well as citta number 26 (wholesome investigating consciousness acc. by equanimity).
On page 127, it is shown that these two cittas can perform the function of “Rebirth, bhavanga, death”. Since the bhavanga state is not equal to the bhavanga citta, and the former is not a citta but the latter is (that is why Asanna does not have any citta arising except for the last moments) here what Bhikkhu Bodhi means with “bhavanga” as a function we can understand it as the “Arrest bhavanga” and “Vibrational bhavanga” which are cittas that preceed the Mind-Door Adverting consciousness “M” in a Mind-Door Process, see page 166.
I appreciate your feedback on this idea.
Best wishes,
DanielI can also imagine that some Gandhabba, if inclined to Dhamma, will seek out appropriate places for listening to Dhamma.
From my understanding, yes, there should be possessions possible. I watched some videos about a Christian exorcist, he reported about several “demons” even taking possession of a woman. I think they must coexist in some way with the original owner of the body/Gandhabba.
In my view, these phenomena are well explained with Gandhabba as well.
(In another forum discussion, we discussed the case of baby-bodys, whose “ownership” can change -one Gandhabb leaving and another entering/being pulled inside (and using the body for the rest of his life)This also is explained well.)
So, in the Sutta:
“This is the seventh time I have been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am now able to become a king of non-humans.Idaṁ sattamaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṁ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi.
Seven from here, seven from there—
Ito satta tato satta,
fourteen transmigrations in all.
saṁsārāni catuddasa;
That’s how many past lives
Nivāsamabhijānāmi
I can recollect.
yattha me vusitaṁ pure.”
Here he refers to 7 lives together with King Vessavana, and 7 lives before that, in your interpretation?Since all these 14 births are occuring in maximally the amount of a few decades (considering the fact that the Buddha was still alive) we can assume the lives were rather short.
Yes, I know what you mean.
But is it necessary from the Sutta, that King Bimbisara had these 14 jati after attaining the Sotapanna stage?
What if he can remember previous lives before he attained the Sotapanna stage?
He only said he can remember 14 Lifes (jati). Not that he can remember them since he became Sottapanna.
I feel, the Translation by Bhikkhu Sujato does allow for that possibility.
A Gandhabba also has rupa, but not such gross or dense rupa as this physical body. Lal explained on the articles that a Gandhabba always, at least, has the kammaja kaya (hadaya vatthu where the consciousness arised, as well as 5 sense-base pasada rupa). Especially if it leaves a body after death, it usually takes a small amount of matter related to the “image and form” of the deceased body with it, as far as I understand. So, it has matter and form, but that form is not visible to us with our physical eyes (while we are embodied).
“So there was a continuity, it was the same individual, from the time he saw Dipankara Buddha, till the time he got enlightened under the Bodhi tree.
What was it which remained same throughout that period?
Is it the same Gandhabba undergoing slight modifications but still the same.”Consider a river. A river consists of a flow of water particles, that are in constant motion. The water level on one spot might differ from the water level on another spot, as well as changing at every spot all the time.
That might be an analogy of the “energy flux” that makes up a Gandhabba. The qualities of that flux depend on condition, just in the same way that the water level on one spot of the river depends on conditions (how much it rained, whether there are dams build along the river, time of the year).So in one way, there was nothing the same between the phenomena we call “the Bodhisatta” at the time he met Buddha Dipankara and when he himself became a Buddha. But any lifestream, through the thoughts and abhisankharas created, conditions it’s future shape and qualities.
A river that was once a big river can become just a small dirty flow of water, if the appropriate conditions start appearing. In the case of a river, the nature or man can make these appear by using extensive amoubts of water, chemical factories, and so on.
In the case of the lifestream, the current phenomena can condition future phenomena. Whatever habits and intentions “you” cultivate will grow, and that is how the Bodhisatta grew in the journey of co pleting his qualities.But as it is in the case of the river, where is the “river” itself? It is only a name for a number of causally interconnected phenomena, which themselves are arising because of causes and conditions being present, and generating new upfollowing causes for future phenomena.
A river is not the same feom one moment to the next, but it is also not “something entirely new”.
That would be my contribution to your question. I hope, it can be helpful.Best wishes,
DanielI agree with you on the Charles Parkhurst case.
The simultaneous controlling of multiple bodies seems far fetched. The overlap is big, more than 20 years.
From the case I read in Dr. Stevenson’s book, it seems however possible to me, that Gandhabba can take hold of a body that is already developed more than just a baby in the womb.
But this would have to mean that the original Gandhabba controlling the body leaves for some good reason. And it would imply a noticable change of personality reported by the people surrounding that body.
In the case of Kohler and Schulz, it is one of the cases where the overlap is small, maximum 1 or 2 years. Then, a change in personality might not be discernable.
Possibly Rupert subconsciously matched his past, or it was true. The original Gandhabba of Rupert’s body just left around the time of Helmut Kohler’s death.If you want, I can send you the report on the case studied in the book that I mentioned above, where the individual reports that he has been advised to “enter the body” of the 3,5 year old child by a “sadu” (holy spirit/Gandhabba).
Another interesting case is that of
It is interesting because there is a description of a conscious “entering womb process”. The Person describes his time as a Gandhabba, visiting his pregnant sister, adoring the child she gave birth to, and somehow finding himself being drawn into the body of that baby, taking hold of that baby.
I assume the original Gandhabb left.Here is a quote:”
Reincarnation: Nai Leng Enters Choate’s Infant Body“After a while, thinking that she was again asleep, I came out to get another glimpse of the child. She again opened her eyes and said the same thing to me. I went back to hide. I told myself that the time had come for me to decide once and for all. I was torn between two feelings. Although I would like to stay, yet I should go; indeed I must go. Before leaving, however, I wish to get another good look at the child. This time I dared not approach lest she reproach me once more. Thus, I poked only my head out. After obtaining a good look, I started to go away again.
As soon as I turned, my body began spinning like a top. I could not regain my balance. I tried to cover my head, face and ears with my hands before I fell unconscious. At that point I thought I was dead.
I did not know how long it was before I regained consciousness. I was wondering where I was. Concentration and recollection told me that not long before this I was Nai Leng. I felt myself full of vigor. Recalling all of the past, I wondered why I was in such a helpless condition. I felt somewhat frustrated.” (9)
”
Lal, you may move the discussion to the Gandhabba forum. I am sorry for mixing up the two.
Unfortunately, it is hard to find very well documented cases, or at least I am not advanced in that search yet.
The case I explained upon is a case where a gandhabba takes hold of a 3,5 year old child, whose old Gandhabba has left.
Another case is this one, that would be a good recommendation:
“https://www.reincarnationresearch.com/past-life-story-of-charles-parkhurst-penney-peirce-spirit-being-or-spirit-guide-past-life-identification-in-a-reincarnation-case/”The relevant part:”The compelling reincarnation cases of Charles Parkhurst | Penney Peirce and Alice Cary | Penny Peirce demonstrate a very interesting and important phenomenon, that a soul can animate two different bodies at the same time. I have termed this split incarnation, as it appears that the soul can split itself, or project itself, into different physical bodies at the same time, This phenomenon has also been called parallel lives.
Alice Cary, the earliest incarnation in this series of lives, was born in 1820 and died in 1871. Charles Parkhurst was born in 1842, at a time when Alice Cary was 22 years old. Alice Cary died in 1871 at the age of 51, at time when Parkhurst was 29 years old. As such, the lifetimes of Cary and Parkhurst overlapped by 29 years.
Parkhurst died 52 years after the death of Alice Cary, in 1933. Penney Peirce was born in 1949, 16 years after Parkhurst’s death, 50 miles from the location where Parkhurst died.
A very compelling Ian Stevenson, MD past life case involving split incarnation is: The Reincarnation Case of Helmut Kohler | Ruprecht Schultz
Did Cary and Parkhurst Ever Meet?
It is of interest to wonder if Alice Cary and Charles Parkhurst ever crossed paths. Though there is no evidence to support that Cary and Parkhurst ever met, it appears that they did come in close proximity to each other. In 1850, Alice, at 30 years of age, journeyed from Ohio to visit John Greenleaf Whittier at his Massachusetts home, not far from where Parkhurst was living on his family’s farm in Framingham. Parkhurst was as an 8-year-old boy at the time.
The two people had another episode of geographic proximity 20 years later, in the summer of 1870 when Alice Cary made her last foray out of New York City to visit friends in Northampton, Massachusetts. Cary was 50 years old at the time. Parkhurst, who was now 28 years of age, was living nearby in Massachusetts and was married in Northhampton 8 months later.
Parkhurst moved to New York in 1880, nine years after Cary died. Though it appears that the two never met, it is likely that Parkhurst knew of Cary. When Parkhurst was a young man, Cary was in her prime as an author, contributing to many popular magazines of the time. It is possible that Parkhurst read articles written by his split, Alice Cary.
”
It is open to question whether Parkhurst underwent a change of Gandhabba when he was 29 years old.
Or whether one Gandhabba can control both bodies? Seems like a supernormal power to me. There are no reports about a “change of personality” in the article, relating to a Gandhabba-takeover at adult age.But I think that it seems reasonable that Gandhabba can enter “left bodies” even when they are fully grown, and, under appropriate conditions, continue living with them.
What do you think?
I just read the case details in Ian Stevenson’s book.
Apparently this was a case where a baby, three and a half years old, was on the verge of dying. The Gandhabba of the baby left already, but another Gandhabba of a man who died in a nearby village was advised to “seek shelter” (by another spirit) in the dying body of the 3,5 year old child. The child recovered from the illness and was noticably changed in his personality.
This is only the summary. For more details, the case is well documented.
In this case, it is visible that what happened is a Gandhabba-takeover, not a simultaneous growth and living in two bodies. One might suspect that this is the case for the other cases as well, but I am open for any contrary evidence.
Thank you both for your valuable comments.
Just a short question to Lal:
Soontaneous birth is something that I usually mostly accounted for the Gandhabba state. But I heard something about Angels who are able to use a real human physical body sometimes to communicate with us. I say angels because I heard about it from a Christian context. It should be Deva, I assume.But spontaneous birth can also mean that the physical body is born instantaneously (not Gandhabba), similar to how Angels can create one to use. I understand you, Lal, in this second way, when I read your writing.
Right?
In the kammaja kaya, the pasada rupa for taste,touch,smell, seeing, hearing are created. These are in the Gandhabba as I understand.
Shouldn’t it be possible for a rupa, that is part of utuja kaya, to “connect” to the “kaya dasaka”?Yes, Gandhabba doesn’t have nose, tongue and body but it has the nose-base, tongue-base and body-base. So, in my view, it can still “smell” aromas, where a fruit-rupa is making contact directly with ghāna-dasaka?
Another (a bit related question):
Samphassa-ja-vedana create rupa that are radiating out from the cittaja kaya, that would be my understanding. This creation is also an “entangling” process.
Niramisa vedana come from the “deentanglement” of mental energies.
So these are processes below the rupa stage.
Would you agree with this?But anyway, if some Gandhabba can accumulate rice-corns, which are very gross compared to suddhataka, then that should make it possible to create rupa-sensation through the body-base of the kammaja kaya, or at least I don’t understand why a Gandhabba would never feel any dukha/sukha vedana at all when not in a “gross physical body” that starts developing in the womb.
Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?
A Deva should also feel sukha/dukha vedana through their utuja kaya, I imagine.
PS. Maybe the confusion is that utuja kaya and physical body is consideres the same?
So, assuming the cade where a Gandhabba comes out of a dead body and accumulates some matter through odors and scents, at that time this should be a physical body or utuja kaya. These should then lead to possible dukha or sukha vedana, right?If the Gandhabba is not embodied, there are no “bodily” sensations? I mean, there are no sensations generated through utuja kaya and impinging on “kaya pasada rupa”?
Or, alternatively, if one would consider Deva as similar to Gandhabba, they also feel “bodily” sensations through their utuja kaya, right?
With “bodily sensation”, I mean it more generally just as impingement through “kaya pasada rupa”/”kaya dasaka” (a vipaka that is a sukha/dukha vedana for example – a Gandhabba should still have these?)
Lal, do you have a proof for the following statement you made:
“However, a Buddha is born only in our world system (within the 1,000 world systems), i.e., only in our Jambudīpa.”
This is from the other forum discussion that I linked in my last comment.
So if I understand correctly:
In the other “999” world systems (solar systems) there are humans with these 4 categories as well (Jambudīpa being one lf them), but there, a Buddha never arises. Only in ours. Or can a Buddha not also arise in their Jambudīpa?If not, why so asymmetric? What makes our solar system so special?
