Sutta about Bimbisara

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    • #35474
      DanielSt
      Participant

      Dear Lal,
      In the article :

      Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein

      You write:
      “For example, King Bimbisāra, who was a Sotāpanna died and was to have 14 rebirths; see, “Jana­vasabha Sutta (DN 18)“.”

      The text in the Sutta is:
      “I am Bimbisāra, Holy One!bimbisāro ahaṁ, sugatāti.This is the seventh time I have been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am now able to become a king of non-humans.Idaṁ sattamaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṁ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi. Variant: manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi → so ito cuto manussesu rājā bhavituṁ pahomi (sya-all, km); amanussarājā divi homi (pts1ed)

      Seven from here, seven from there—Ito satta tato satta,fourteen transmigrations in all.saṁsārāni catuddasa;That’s how many past livesNivāsamabhijānāmi,I can recollect.yattha me vusitaṁ pure.

      For a long time I’ve known that I won’t be reborn in the underworld, but that I still hope to become a once-returner.’

      How do you explain this Sutta in your proposed way?

      Some people say that Bimbisara’s new life could remember 7 lives in the past, maybe also before he was King Bimbisara. Does it follow, that he remember 7 lives after since he became a Sotapanna?

      And what do you make out of his comment, that now he will become a king of non-humans?
      Has he been a Human Gandhabba at this time?
      Or that he will become king again?

      And, how to explain the time?
      It could have been only 30 or something years in human timescale, that he became a Sotapanna. In these years, he had 7 lives?

    • #35475
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I have explained the difference between births (jati) and existences (bhava):
      Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein

      Bimbisara had 14 births (jati), NOT 14 bhava.
      – A Sotapanna can have at most 7 BHAVA before attaining Arahanthood.

    • #35476
      DanielSt
      Participant

      Yes, I know what you mean.

      But is it necessary from the Sutta, that King Bimbisara had these 14 jati after attaining the Sotapanna stage?

      What if he can remember previous lives before he attained the Sotapanna stage?

      He only said he can remember 14 Lifes (jati). Not that he can remember them since he became Sottapanna.

      I feel, the Translation by Bhikkhu Sujato does allow for that possibility.

    • #35477
      Lal
      Keymaster

      He is referring to the lives he had AFTER he died as King Bimbisara.
      – He is just stating that to the Buddha, to let him know that he is a Sotapanna in a lower Deva realm (which could have many jatis within that Deva bhava) and hopes to attain the next stage of Nibbana, Sakadagami phala, soon.

      I don’t know about other people’s translations. You need to ask him.
      – Bhikkhu Sujato has done so many bad translations. Of course, translating anicca as impermanence and anatta as “no-self” are the worst.
      – Another is the translation of bhikkhu as “mendicant” or “begger”. That is very bad too!

    • #35482
      DanielSt
      Participant

      So, in the Sutta:
      “This is the seventh time I have been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am now able to become a king of non-humans.

      Idaṁ sattamaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṁ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi.

      Seven from here, seven from there—
      Ito satta tato satta,
      fourteen transmigrations in all.
      saṁsārāni catuddasa;
      That’s how many past lives
      Nivāsamabhijānāmi
      I can recollect.
      yattha me vusitaṁ pure.


      Here he refers to 7 lives together with King Vessavana, and 7 lives before that, in your interpretation?

      Since all these 14 births are occuring in maximally the amount of a few decades (considering the fact that the Buddha was still alive) we can assume the lives were rather short.

    • #35487
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I took a quick look at the sutta.

      Here is the relevant verse:
      bimbisāro ahaṁ, bhagavā; bimbisāro ahaṁ, sugatāti. Idaṁ sattamaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṁ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi. Variant: manussarājā bhavituṁ pahomi so ito cuto manussesu rājā bhavituṁ pahomi

      I would translate that as:
      “I am Bimbisara, Bhagavā; I am Bimbisara. I will be born 7 times in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa where I am now. After passing away from here, I will be able to become a king of humans 7 times.”

      So, it seems to me that he had not even gone through the 7 births in the Deva realm at the time he stated that.
      – He expects to attain the Sakadagami stage during one of those 14 lives.

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