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I will show you on more technical analysis.
When you see a person you do not like the first moment of perceiving “I do not like him” is applied as mental fabrication on the basis of neutral vedana of just seeing a person. If you do not recognize him you would not develop such “dislike” feeling.
So Eye -> Object of perception -> MENTAL FABRICATION -> Feeling is conconcted so you experience it and suffer.
When we attain Arahanthood there is Eye -> Object of perception -> NO MENTAL FABRICATION -> Seeing it as it is without any suffering even if it develops neurobiological suffering it’s just as it is without suffering.
I would not say everything is neutral but this is a true meaning of Anatta. I would say now based on my experience with it and results that real meaning of Anatta is “without own characteristic” so to speak or “without flavor”. To experience suffering on any level of aggregates we need mentally fabricate it but they do not have own qualities so lack of this qualities is Anatta. Everything is truly Anatta, but it can not be translated literally as neutral as it goes beyond neutral but neutral can be used in the explanation.
That’s not true :)
It’s a right explanation. I will use an example I used somewhere else:
an example when three people meet. One person has liked for one person, other people do not like that one but bystander do not have a feeling for that person whom the other two like and dislike. So the person (and objects) do not have any inherent quality that makes people likes or dislike, it's one own ignorance (lack of understanding of Anicca nature which is not impermanence) manufacture such feelings and thoughts to arise - otherwise, all people bypassing would dislike himSo suffering generally appears because of this mental fabrication not because of an object of perception or perception itself. As Sariputta said:
Ven. Kotthita: “How is it, friend Sariputta, is … the ear the fetter of sounds or are sounds the fetter of the ear?…”
Ven. Sariputta: “Friend Kotthita, the … ear is not the fetter of sounds nor are sounds the fetter of the ear, but rather the desire and lust that arise there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there…so ear-piercing sound will generate neutral vedana in Arahant even is his body reacts in pain but pain will be not mentally fabricated as painful.
A mind is like a radio. If you are in line with the right wave your life will be better overall even if it’s not a rich life or life you would dream of it will be very good.
What I suggest is to practice chanting with Abhya Thero. Once chants create proper wave structure in your mind you will see life is getting better like you would be touched by a supernatural force but of course those are just workings of proper Buddhist practice.
Once your mind is set in the right direction then the life will follow to be like that or at least your experience of life. This is my direct experience which I actually experienced and still researching on that how the mind actually changes the “wave” of life direction you are floating. What you experience you just going against life so there is friction.
I do not know if Lal agrees (if not, please delete) but there is Abhya thero mentioned on this site who have such chants to practice with
You need to learn the meaning of those (which you can find on youtube of his english discourses) after couple days of listening and chantings with understanding and contemplating you will feel refreshed with “will” to live and cope with things.
My understanding of the rebirth process was even before Buddha Dhamma (but I was interested in vedas and upanishads) I realized rebirth process true observing natural phenomena like plants giving up seeds and from that seed new life appeared when those conditions was applicable for them which I woke up to understanding of rebirth process. We can deduce all micca ditthi by observing natural way. I had also encounters with spirits or ghost I guess so for me it was pretty natural to not having micca ditthi even before attending Pure Buddha Dhamma.
The good thing about that sutta is qualities of Buddha are explained very well which can really help Buddhanussati.
I had this “eureka moment” when I heard Abhaya Thero for the first time and then much of the understanding came after reading the Puredhamma pages.I will give you an example that what you attained now is better then all jhanas masters can even imagine. For example, you are addicted to something like drugs or whatever but you get rid of that addiction and you get back to “normal state” or sober state. In spirituality, everybody looks for something like that but Buddha comes and taught us to attain Nibbana (like being sober from addictions/cravings of this world). So even if attainments of Sotapanna or Sakadagami are not going to blow in your face but you will definitely sober from sansara.
If you will be oriented in being sober then liberation with wisdom and clarity of the nature of this world will be easier.
They are extraordinary, especially higher ones (Most of jhanas experiences I read around got nothing to do with it, rather than just some results of samadhi which are different) but they are like drugs or going out to the circus or some fun park when your emotions are higher to give your spike but in reality anariya jhana just leads to discarding this world for another world of jhanas which is still subject of suffering which is even harder to drop once you get used to jhana practice you do not see nature of either world or jhana but you sees jhana worlds just as better than regular life experiences.
Let imagine the world as a skin of a fruit, sometimes sweet and mostly dry and bitter. World of jhana is like getting into juice and fruit itself that’s why the world can be easily discarded by ascetics as they have a better way to experience bliss then any regular person can attain but either of them does not see the true nature of this fruit and Nibbana lies beyond this fruit by discarding as its sweetness not fulfilling anyway.
I attained so many different states and samadhi (before I was even practicing proper Buddha Dhamma I was practicing many different types of meditation, some of the one-pointed meditations, other I will not even talk about it because it would sound like a lie)
What I experienced.
1) Once in samadhi, I developed abhinna power to see past of people. If I look at them and think about the topic I want to know my mind produce that knowledge. First I thought they are just mental illusion and fantasies but they felt different than regular thoughts as I could feel they are true. Once I tested it with one of the new friends I had in the workplace. I described her boyfriend, how he looks, what music he listens etc. She was creeped out later on and I never did that again with anybody. (I need to mention when I was not in that samadhi it did not work)
2) I experienced various types of jhanas and blisses (anariya). For the first jhana, it took me a couple of minutes to enter it, but sometimes that jhana also lasted a couple of minutes or seconds. Sometimes as the wave of “orgasm like feeling” or just very pleasant loving feeling in the body mostly. My longest stay in jhana was 6 days, in that jhana, I could function like a regular person on the outside but it was very hard. I forgot to eat because the bliss was so intense it’s beyond any imagination. The world was neither existent or nonexistent. I wish just people can experience it for a brief second as it will switch the view of the whole world and their limited perspective on life.
3) One time after meditation my hand started to disappear as it would be made from thick air. I wanted to make a photo of this phenomena but when reaching for my phone it turned back again normal.
4) One friend of mine let me do experiments on her in relation to meditation powers I developed back in the days. For example, I could control her physical activities in the body. Move her blood flow from one hand to the different place of the body which resulted in numbing of that place as blood flow would be cut off. There were some other things which person with a vivid imagination can understand where those experiments lead further.
5) When I was sick I once developed one samadhi that actually cured me of chronic diseases. Once I had a sore throat and I meditated for a whole night with healing samadhi and after when I left that samadhi in turned into remission by its own in the next couple of hours.
6) Once in meditation, I felt like my body shrank as I would be very small being. As I opened my eyes my body was normal and it was just a feeling like you have sometimes that you are about to fall off when falling asleep.
7) One time I meditated I had flickering and light before my eyes when they were closed.
8) One time when I was asleep I woke up (it was after intense meditation period) I felt movement in my spine which turned into experiencing like thousand claps of thunder would go thru my spine and after those thunders like thousand rocks would roll in that spine in an upward movement. After that, I just moved back to sleep as nothing happened.
9) I had some many small experiences and most of them I forgot to be honest. My conclusions are that it’s easy for someone who had experience in different types of meditation to realize the difference between those and the results of Buddha Dhamma practice.
I think the difference is in lokiya and lokuttara Path which are mundane and supermundane. Understanding nature of this world and how things are works different on the mind then just moral control which is needed to realize true nature of this world.
Practicing Satipatthana is like slowing down the pace of the wheel. Once the wheel slowed enough you can see it’s true condition. If you are compulsive then proper Satipatthana will help you almost instantly or in couple days it can be life changing (based on results in my group). Once you are free from those compulsive actions of mind, you can develop insight more smoothly.
Goosebumps are not related to the the spiritual process. Energy movement in the body which affects body “prickling” “pressure” etc. are related to the cleansing of the body in relation to cleansing of the mind. It’s pretty regular phenomena even if you just practice anariya meditation.
Physical goosebumps are related to clenching of perineum, pleasant sensual feeling in relation to six senses or situation when you doing something “with flow” and you see how good you are in that flow.
The spiritual aspects of that I had many as I practice meditation by 10+ years by now insistently so I had high spectrum of experiences which are different then just “goosebumps”. I can not tell relation of energy in the body in Buddha thought so maybe Lal can explain it. You can do just simple exercise to feel energy in the body by moving your attention (as it would be a dot) and looking into your hand. Start to make spiral movements with your intent and thoughts that you move your mind like you would paint on hand with attention. Make spirals from smaller to higher and back to the point zero counterclockwise and clockwise. You must move back to the point zero or you can create problems with your blood flow or nervous system in that place. As you can experience our mind affecting something “invisible”. So we can imagine how bad thoughts and kamma can make some changes on that level which we are not even aware in our everyday life.
Here is some interesting question I answered from our group. Maybe other people will find it helpful for their practices and understanding.
"For example, eating a piece of cake that was given by a friend generates a “good feeling” via the taste itself. That belongs to the first category. This is a kamma vipāka and there are “no new kamma generated”; see, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“. Thero seems to say there is no inherent pleasure in any of the senses, except for body touch. Lal says that sanna (taste properties in the case of the cake? Recognizing sweet, sour) and vedana (the taste experience as a „feeling“?) happen even in an arahant. But there is no further rumination or attachment. What exactly is the pleasure one experiences when eating a sweet cake?"- It’s all one sensual pleasure, we do not need to call it “eating a cake” or “having sex”. Once the craving is fulfilled we experience pleasure which are two types. Physical pleasure related to the qualities of such object and mental which lacking inherent qualities. So when something feels nice or taste etc. it’s mental fabrication that make it NICE of the basis factor. For example is something is sweet – it’s just sweet but on the basis of that sweetness we develop mental fabrication “this is nice, this is good”. So when it comes to any sensual pleasure they are pleasant but they are unable fulfill our cravings but for those sensual pleasure we often lie , cheat and do akusala kamma for it when actually we can not fulfill ourselves but them. In suttas you have many references that diseases, pain or pleasure is experienced differently between regular person (anariya) and Noble One (Ariya person). because we experience things thru wisdom and understanding of what’s going on (TRUE SATIPATTHANA which is knowing true nature of this world, not just recognizing sensation on the body)
"I have hateful attachment to sweets as I find them useless and detrimental to health - still I experience both unpleasantness and a bad mental feeling and at the same time pleasant feeling in the body (up to a certain degree of sweetness when it can become disgusting like if it has too much sugar)."- Whatever you have hateful or lustful attachment for sweets or sugars there is no point of dividing it as there are all one sensual pleasure. You recognize sensual pleasure but you do not recognize nature of this world or how things works in relation to your own happiness so you mistake that thru those sensual pleasures you will attain some permanent or long term happiness because of their “sensual” quality. This is way of regular people who are blind to wisdom or not capable of developing one
"Thero says that there is no gratification inherent in any object, but then he says that body touch does have an inherent property. Then there are extremely bitter things, I doubt anybody could have a liking for them"- Your question ideally represent the ignorance we all have (or had if someone attained Nibbana) and I mean that we can work from that actually to show light exactly of how things are. There is body touch or whatever quality it is or not – we are not able to fulfill ourselves and our cravings thru those body touch or whatever qualities of various objects or experiences as they can not penetrate our mind beside proper meditation that Buddha described. If we do not realize that we will suffer forever thru bilions of lifetimes craving more and more because of this ignorance related to rebirth process which is like glue to it. So you experience sweetness because causes and conditions are there but on the basis of that sweetness you developing mental fabrication of “I like this” or “This is great!” not realizing it so you develop craving for more.
Then there are extremely bitter things, I doubt anybody could have a liking for them.- It’s the same coin but different side, liking or disliking are the same. The problem is not only in liking but also in disliking things because it’s the same ignorance affecting our mind after death.
" Thero says the reason for insatiability is that there is nothing to gain from outside objects, as we experience pleasure in relation to them (from our attitude/attachment/what we wish from them), not from the object. So this includes the properties one can perceive from an object?"- When ignorant person experiences things he dislike them or likes them depends on their qualities but Noble Person sees their true nature so neither likes them or dislikes them but sees them as they are (which is without mental fabrication to the extent of developed wisdom (panna)). You seem to have hard time understanding qualities of objects/experiences in relation to seeing them as good or bad, but it’s not like that. It’s generally pretty easy to recognize (watch #discourses on “How to attain Sotapanna”) if you have good examples. You expect to not experiences qualities of the objects (which is not possible) but when you attain Nibbana you stop experiencing mental fabrication on that objects but objects itself can not be without quality unless you are in deep jhana or different state of existence at that moment. So understanding that nothing in this world can make you happy, there is no qualities in objects, other people, feelings, experiences or mental ideas/fantasies or whatever to fulfill your cravings. Once you realize that, you drop the craving or expectation from such objects/people/experiences but they will not lose they quality as such but your experience in relation and relationship towards those objects will change and they will not generate that much suffering (on Arahant stage no suffering at all)
"So an arahant who has cleared up all defilements (and has no more gathi connected with hatred, lust or ignorance) can still experience pleasure regarding a sense object that has no inherent property (as Thero says)? How would that be possible?"- He experiences object as it is without mental fabrication and knowing it’s true nature without ignorance. The more things regular person (anariya) experience the more confused it becomes and that why people are depressed and angry at world, develops heretic view (in contradiction to reality not in religious way) and that’s why we have all this socio-economical-political confusion because people do not realize how things are and there is no people who can explain it to people so we can all live in harmony with Nibbana or natural laws which Buddha explained to experience life in very wholesome way.
So it is sweet or tasty he does not feel craving for it or liking that would develop gathi in relation to that liking or does not have hateful and bad thoughts in relation to the object he would experience negatively as he knows it’s true nature and consequences of such thing. We can not get angry if things does not matter for us much and it’s not called being ignorant (as people can just numb themselves thru ignorance with slight of aversion) , we only get angry or happy for things which we value or see as worthy our emotions and thinking process. As Arahant we see everything as it is and we are happy and blissful because of freedom from all this confusion we had before
"Earlier you said: „the pleasure of the body is the same as jhanic pleasure.“ How is that the case?"- Sensual pleasure which reminds jhanic pleasure is only found in orgasm in skillful sexual union. (means that two people are experiences enough to develop peak of possible orgasm to the limits of body). Once that is developed at the peak we experience similar sensation and pleasure related to the first jhana. That’s why people practice tantra and other things. We are all like lost bees trying to find honey but only finding substitutes and get hooked on them causing our self stomach ache and death (which means being stuck in rebirth process because of unwholesome qualities we develop for such substitutes and when we experiencing them) . So sensual pleasure (sexual in this case) is resulted of overloading and fulfilling craving. Next stage are anariya jhanas which are results of suppressing cravings so after sometime as we lead “holy life” we can enter jhanic pleasures which results from suppression of those worldly pleasures. Next stage which is true holy life as attaining Ariya Jhanas which are caused by uprooting permanently fetters of the mind so our mind set itself in jhana spontaneously without effort to do so. For example when you get rid of disease you do not need to make yourself feel healthy as that state of health or feeling healthy results in disappearing of disease. So when you uncondition your mind from hindrances thru wisdom those Ariya Jhanas will happen on it’s own with wisdom.
I remember often when listening to music that can turn you up or doing things like in rollerblade or doing physical exercises (like the human flag to show off) often I had goosebumps. I do not know exact names but if you find it helpful it’s more related to high-esteem or high view about ourselves. We feel so good about ourselves that there is psychosomatic interaction. I can not tell what is the name in Pali, but if you have this in metta bhavana that means you feel very good about yourself or very high about yourself because of that metta.
Thank you for confirmation. It’s great to see that Dhamma is ONE (one understanding) and you just confirmed what I thought (which happen all the time).
What I practice now (and which works the most) is seeing things without craving or any allotment on that object while observing the process of Paticca Samupadda which can be actually seen.
Seeing things without unwholesome ideas and thoughts/perception towards the 6 senses.
I can tell that even if it’s not possible to see it for most people like Ven. Bahiya you can definitely train it as Buddha explained so when you encounter things you will not develop unwholesome qualities.
