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Dear Akvan Sir,
Theruvan saranaiThanks a lot for your encouragement. I truly appreciate your help.
Yes, you said it right – “Just because one couldn’t attain any magga pala in the past doesn’t mean that he cannot attain it now or in the future.”
I also agree when you said – “But just because one hears it doesn’t mean that he will understand it. And it is the proper understanding that is necessary and not merely hearing it.”
But when you said – “So to your question of why we didn’t attain any magga pala even though we may have heard the dhamma earlier, it would have been because our pragna may not have been developed to the required level.”
This is the point where my doubt is.
I mean, on one hand it is said that we all have been to all the apayas, in all the deva lokas, in all the brahma lokas (even in the highest arupa lokas) infinite number of times in this beginning-less sansara. We even have been born human (and have heard the Buddha Dhamma) infinite number of times in the past.
But on the other hand it is said that we are still here in sansara because we have NEVER attained any magga-phala in any of our infinite number of past lives.
Isn’t it strange that I have not been able to develop the required level of “panna” for attaining the Sotapanna stage in any of my infinite number of past lives ?
Isn’t it shocking that I have not fulfilled the conditions of becoming a Sotapanna in any of my infinite number of past lives ?
I mean how is it possible ?
For me, this point is very hard to believe. It is very difficult to digest.
But I have no choice. I have to believe this strange “assumption”, otherwise my mind will not be able to focus on the path.
Anyways, thanks again for your help.
MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!
Dear Siebe Sir
First of all, uncountable thanks to you, because through your questions I have also benefited myself.
I am becoming a fan of your honesty and sincerity! I appreciate your genuine efforts towards discovering the meanings of the Suttas for the benefit for all.
Now let me be truly honest.
I have neither attained any magga-phala nor do I have any special knowledge.
I started searching about Buddhism from January 2014 (at a young age of 20). I also used to read many Suttas (in English). At that time, I believed these English translations to be correct.But in July 2015, I came across this website. After that my perceptions about the accuracy of the English translated Suttas changed a lot.
I developed strong faith in Ven. Lal Sir and his essays on this website.So whatever comments I have made in this forum till now is strongly influenced by the essays in this website.
It seems that there are two kinds of Sakkaya ditthi :
please read this – Sakkaya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View ?My comments were based on this essay.
Thanks a lot @ Seng Kiat Sir for your kind answer.
That was really helpful.May you attain Nibbana in this life itself !
I will restate what I have said earlier:
This innate and inherent tendency of “I am” or “me” is a very subtle and deeply ingrained perception in all of us. Hence “asmi mana” – the perception or concept of “I am” or “me” is one of the last sanyojanas that can be removed ONLY at the Arahant stage and NOT at the Sotapanna stage.
It is not possible to forcibly remove this perception (no matter how hard one tries). It will get removed only when one reaches the Arahant stage.
At the Sotapanna stage, only the 3 lower fetters – Sakkaya ditthi, silabbata paramasa & vicikiccha are removed.
Here Sakkaya ditthi (or Sath-kaya ditthi) is the belief or the view that these “kaya” (both internal and external rupa) are “sath” (extremely useful, meaningful, fruitful, beneficial, valuable, worthful).
Without ACTUALLY REALISING the “useless”, “unbeneficial”, “unfruitful”, “unsatisfactory”, “uncontrollable”, “disease ridden” and “dangerous” nature of the 5 khandhas , it is not possible for us to remove the perception of “me”, “mine” or “I am” in relation to any (or all) of the 5 khandhas.
And this is done through “dasasanena pahatabba” and “bhavanaya pahatabba”.
This is why first the “Sakkaya ditthi” is removed (at the Sotapanna stage) and then “asmi mana” is removed at the last (Arahant) stage.
Hence we can see that, in English translations Sakkaya ditthi is incorrectly translated as “self view”, “personality view”, “identity view”, etc.Now I want to point out one more critical thing here. The topic of this discussion is “Wrong English translations of Aniccha, Anatta, Sakkaya ditthi…etc” . This is the important point that I was focusing in my original post. The critical point is that many key concepts (and important Pali words) have been INCORRECTLY translated in the English versions of the Suttas. So we CAN NOT blindly trust the English translations of the Suttas (we can get stuck in the wrong meanings).
So reading the English translated Suttas may not take us too far. These English translated Suttas may not convey the right meanings of what a Sutta is trying to explain.
Initially when I was researching about Buddhism, I also used to read a lot of Suttas (in English) and I was also stuck in the wrong meanings. But when I found this website, then I realised my mistake.
So before reading the English translations of Suttas, please first consider these important facts :
(1) Lord Buddha preached all his teachings in “Magadhi” language.
(2) Pali is a form of Magadhi which is made suitable for oral transmissions.
(3) Pali (just like Magadhi) is a phonetic language. The meanings come from the “sound” of the word. Hence the focus is given on the pronunciation of Pali words.
(4) Pali does not have fixed grammar rules.
(5) A Sutta is a “condensed form” or a “concise version” of a long discourse (generally of many hours) that Lord Buddha actually taught to the people at his time. A sutta is packed with a lot of information.
(6) Many times a given Pali word has more than one meanings which depends on the context in which it is being used. Even a simple Pali word like “Aniccha” contains a very vast and deeper meanings. It can take hours to describe what Aniccha means to a new person.
(7) Hence it is NOT POSSIBLE to translate a Sutta word-by-word in English (or in any language).
(8) In fact, a Sutta is NOT MEANT to be translated word-by-word ! But a Sutta is meant to be explained in detail.
(9) This is why original commentaries (attha-katha) were made at the time of Lord Buddha (and even after his passing away) by the fully enlightened Arahants – to explain the deeper meanings embedded in a Sutta to general public.
(10) So a Sutta is meant to be read with its “original commentaries” to get the right meanings out of the Sutta.
(11) But unfortunately all those original commentaries have been lost long ago. So we only have the Pali Tipitaka with us as the authentic source. However 3 original commentaries (in Pali) have survived because they have been included in the Tipitaka itself.
(12) Another most important point (which many people ignore) is that – A true Noble disciple (Sotapanna/Sakadagami/Anagami/Arahant) has a special kind of knowledge called “patisambhida nana” which means the ability to extract the actual deeper meanings of Pali words in the Suttas.
(13) So only a person with “patisambhida nana” can explain the true deeper meanings behind a Sutta.
(14) Hence reading English translated Suttas is not of much benefit. You will find lot of mistakes.
Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratnalankara Thero in Sri Lanka was such a special person with “patisambhida nana”. However all his discourses are in Sinhala language.
Ven. Lal Sir is also such a person with “patisambhida nana”. He is extracting the hidden (deeper) meanings of key Pali words and concepts in Buddha Dhamma and he is explaining them in simple English through this website.
Although I have never met him personally, but I will be forever grateful to him for all I have learned through this website.
Ven. Lal Sir,
Thank you so much for the explanations.I am having problem in understanding the difference between a being in the Asanna brahma realm and an Arahant in Nirodha samapatti.
You said: “Another somewhat similar case applies to a being in the asanna realm. There is no gandhabba there, no citta. Just a fine body is maintained by the kammic energy…”
“…So, there can be rupakkhandha without the other four, like in nirodha samapatti or in the asanna realm.”It seems that there is similarity between an Asanna brahma and an Arahant in Nirodha samapatti ?
In both the cases, the rupa-khandha is there, but the other 4 khandhas do not arise. And the body is maintained by kammic energy.
In both Asanna brahma and an Arahant in Nirodha samapatti, there is no chitta flowing, means no vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.
But I think both the cases are different.
I think, one gets to Asanna brahma realm by deliberately suppressing the vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. So in Asanna brahma realms, cittas do not arise. But the causes for them to re-arise are still there (not removed). So there is no Nibbana.
But an Arahant achieves nirodha samapatti by focusing on Nibbana.
So the cittas and chetasikas (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) ceases automatically because all the causes and conditions that lead cittas and chetasikas to arise are removed. So when all the causes and conditions are removed then the only thing left is Nibbana, because Nibbana is the uncaused and unconditioned.One more question :
(7) Is there any difference between Anariya jhana samapatti and Ariya jhana samapatti ?
Hello Akvan Sir
Theruvan saranaiThanks a lot for your insightful explanations.
You rightly said that : “So it is by comprehending the aniccha, dukka, anatta nature of the world that one moves away from miccha ditti, and gradually loses sakkaya ditti and later attanu ditti.
Another aspect to consider is, if Sakkaya Ditti actually means the complete removal of the conceit “I am” (as translated and commonly understood in most instances), then why should there be other aspects like Attanu Ditti and Asmee maana, which are removed after sakkaya ditti is removed?”Yes I also agree with you. “Mana” is removed ONLY at the Arahant stage and not at the Sotapanna stage.
May you attain Nibbana in this life itself !!!
Thanks Siebe Sir for your answer (and Sutta reference).
Yes I agree with you that Sotapanna stage can be realised by comprehending Aniccha, Dukkha, Anatta nature of this world.
May you attain Nibbana in this life itself !!!
Hello Siebe Sir
May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with you always !Thanks for your reply.
At the Sotapanna stage, only 3 sanyojanas i.e., “Sakkaya ditthi”, “Silabbata paramasa” and “Vicikiccha” are removed.
“Mana” is one of the last sanyojanas to be removed ONLY at the Arahant stage.
I think “mana” can not be removed at the Sotapanna stage.My point is that – for attaining the Sotapanna stage, the necessary thing is the “correct understanding” of Aniccha, Dukkha, Anatta. This is the point that I was focusing in the above post.
May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with everyone !
I just wanted to share this highest gift (of Dhamma) with everyone.
If anyone is interested in listening to Dhamma deshanas in English then please visit this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zBgcGQuEhw&list=PLKr-lYdiK6lLeAp6CM69DOo_fDS5kEhXw
And yes, please share the merits of listening to Sadhamma to all sentient beings !MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!
A heartfelt greetings to everyone !
Just to comment on the matter of Sakkaya ditthi.
I agree with Ven. Lal Sir’s point of view.
In current English versions Sakkkaya ditthi is translated as “personality view“, “identity view“, “self view“, etc. which is NOT CORRECT.The correct meaning of Sakkaya ditthi has been aptly described by Ven. Lal Sir in his post:
Is Sakkaya ditthi a personality (me) view ?If anyone wants to read more about this then please visit here:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/entering-samma-di-hi/5701Hope this helps
MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!A heartfelt greetings to everyone !
I wanted to add a link to Ven. Lal Sir’s answer.
Gandhabba or Manomaya Kaya is an important concept in Buddha Dhamma. So it is essential to get a good idea about what this Gandhabba or Manomaya Kaya is like.I found a youtube video depicting Astral body and Astral travel. This might be helpful for those who want to get some perception about “Mental body”.
Please see – Astral body and Astral travel
Hope this helps
MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!
@ Ven. Lal Sir
Thank you so much for your kind and compassionate explanations. That was very helpful.
It is amazing how you respond so well to each and every question.
May all your Noble efforts help you to attain Nibbana in this life itself.
May all sentient beings achieve Nibbana by comprehending pure Buddha Dhamma !!!
@ Ven. Ariyaratna Sir
wonder why beings in the realms 28-31 are called “arupavacara” brahma ?
and why these realms are called “arupa” loka ? (since arupavacara brahmas have hadaya vatthu which is technically a rupa)A heartfelt greetings to everyone !
“Nibbana exists, but not in this world”
As I understand this, everything in this world of “31 realms” is a “Sankata”.
In other words, everything in this world of “31 realms” arises due to causes (and conditions), exists for some time (variable) and eventually comes to extinction. There are 6 ROOT CAUSES which gives rise to everything (sankata) in this world of 31 realms –(i) lobha
(ii) dosa
(iii) moha
(iv) alobha
(v) adosa
(vi) amohaAnother (most) important fact about any Sankata is its “Viparinama” nature. It changes unexpectedly during its course (hence Aniccha). Therefore everything in this world of 31 relams has the “THREE CHARACTERISTICS”.
On the other hand, Nibbana is NOT “Sankata”. Nibbana is the only Asankata.
So Nibbana does not has a cause ! Hence Nibbana does not belong to the world of 31 realms.
Nibbana (asankata) is attained by removing all the root causes of lobha,dosa,moha,alobha,adosa,amoha (by eliminating asavas and anusayas).Nibbana does NOT has the “Viparinama” nature. Hence it has the opposite three characteristics of “niccha”, “sukkha”, “atta”.
Hope this helps
May all beings attain Nibbana !!!
