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Siebe said: “I have seen most buddhist teachers explain it this way. In this context Anatta is almost always translated as no-self. In the sense of ‘there is no-real ego-identity’. I do not see what is wrong with this meaning of anatta.”
Actually, the next sutta “Channa Sutta (SN 22.90)” clearly says anatta does not mean “no-self”, even in the English translation: “Channa Sutta: To Channa (SN 22.90)“:
“Everything exists”: That is one extreme. “Everything doesn’t exist”: That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.”
“Everything doesn’t exist” in the above translates to “no-self” when applied to a “living being”. As far as a “person” is concerned, “self” is one extreme and “no-self” is the other extreme: it wrong to say either “a person exists” or “a person does not exist”.
So, even though most Theravada websites (including the above sites) translate “anatta” as “no-self”, it is clear from their own translation above that the Buddha rejected this “no-self” view.
I had decided not to answer any more questions from Siebe on this issue, but I can see that he is agonizing over it. And truly, it is not easy to grasp. That is why in the above sutta, it is stated that Ven. Channa meditated for years trying to get rid of the perception of “me” (“pancakkhandha are not mine”) and could not. That is impossible to do. One first needs to realize that it is not fruitful to take pancakkhandha as mine.
I and others have described the relationship between asmi mana and sakkaya ditthi, and also why they are different too. It may be a good idea to read all those exchanges under the following two topics. No point in repeating:
“Two unbroken streams of consciousness (DN28)”
and “Wrong English translations of Aniccha, Anatta, Sakkaya ditthi… etc“.This is at the heart of understanding Tilakkhana, so I suggest to all who have questions about this to read them. There is a lot of information under those two topics.
Bottom line is that a Sotapanna is one who has seen (with wisdom; and has become dassanena sampanno). Thus a Sotapanna knows that “it is not fruitful to take pancakkhandha (including one’s body) to be mine”. That is removing sakkaya ditthi.
It is only an Arahant who has actually fully comprehended and experienced the full release from suffering and thus has removed the perception of “me”. That is removing “mana” or more specifically “asmi mana” (other components of “mana” are removed at lower stages of Nibbana.
To say it in yet another way: Removing sakkaya ditthi is done as first step in comprehending anatta. Comprehension of anatta becomes complete with the removal of “asmi mana” at the Arahant stage.
Finally, I have been getting requests to post a desana on Tilakkhana for a while. This may be the best time to do that since I need to take some time off to focus on another project soon. I hope to do that in a week or so.
Just to elaborate on a few categories listed by SengKiat:
“Unenduring (addhuva) as contemplation of anicca.”
Dhuva means permanent and addhuva means impermanent. Thus, it is clear that taking anicca as “impermanence” is only one aspect of anicca.
This term, “dhuva” comes in the Brahmanimantanika Sutta (Majjhima Nikāya 49), where the Baka Brahma says his existence is permanent; see #12 of
“Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means”“Anatta (anatta) as contemplation of anatta.”
Here anatta means “without refuge”.“Beyond (para) as contemplation of anatta.”
A better translation for “para” here is “lowly”, or very low moral standards. Beyond applies better in the case of “paralowa“. (“para” + “lowa“, or beyond this world).“Vain (tuccha) as contemplation of anatta.”
Tucca is stronger than just vain; despicable is a better translation.Siebe said: “I belief this last view is meant when it said that a stream-enterer posseses the Nobel Eightfold Path (is this case right view). Not meant is the mundane Path.”
That is exactly right.
With mundane samma ditthi, one becomes moral (gets rid of the ten types of micca ditthi).
One enters the Noble Path (the Stream) with lokottara (transcendental) Samma Ditthi (by grasping anicca, dukkha, anatta, the Three Characteristics of the world).
C.Saket had asked me this question via email sometime back, and I published a post at that time giving some ideas:”The Infinity Problem in Buddhism“.
But I need to revise that post when I have time.
The key point is that there are many philosophical questions out there. While it OK to contemplate on such things if one has time, one needs to decide whether it is fruitful to spend a lot of time on them.
One example is Zeno’s paradox. People have wasted time debating that. Google “Zeno’s paradox” and read about it if you are not familiar with it. It seems like an impressive mathematical problem, until you realize that it can be solved by experience in a minute. It is said that Socrates, for example, when told about the paradox, just drew line in the sand and walked across it without saying a word.
Another thing to think about is that the Buddha said that a Buddha is there to teach how to get rid of suffering, and to explain things about this world, some of which are not graspable by a normal human mind. He explained this to a bhikkhu names Malunkyaputta who threatened to give up the monastic life if the Buddha did not explain him about the beginning of the world, etc. See;”Cūḷamālukya sutta (MN 63)“. A reasonable translation at”The Shorter Discourse to Mālunkyāputta (MN 63)“.
But discussions like this do have some use, so I will post a revised version of my original post when I get time. If others point out any other relevant issues to address, or other relevant facts, I can incorporate those too.
@Siebe: I am glad to see that you are making progress.
Full understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta does not come in one shot as a big revelation, even though just getting a glimpse of it makes one’s mind joyful. One can see that there is a Path to happiness (via getting rid of suffering).
It comes is stages. A Sotapanna Anugami gets a glimpse of it, and the basic idea is permanently established at the Sotapanna stage. That is when one can start putting it to practice.
By the time one gets to the Anagami stage, one has seen AND verified the uselessness of seeking sense pleasures.
It is only at the Arahant stage that one has truly verified that it is useless to crave anything at all in this world of 31 realm (even jhanic pleasures, ability to travel through the air, etc). We cannot even begin to imagine that stage. That is where one truly gets rid of the “sense of me”, by realizing via experience that it does not make sense to take any part of pancakkhandha as “mine”.
Theory itself is not enough. That is just the beginning. One meaning of Sotapanna is “starting on the stream or the Path”. Then one starts putting the theory to practice.
Buddha Dhamma is deeper than anyone can possibly imagine.
Vilaskadival said: “In my opinion, all initial sense inputs are neutral..”.
That is true except for the sense inputs coming through the kaya indriya (physical body).
– Vipaka of past bad kamma bring bring bodily pain (headaches, injuries, cancer and other other diseases, etc).
– Vipaka of past good kamma bring bring bodily pleasures (any pleasurable bodily sensation like a good massage, etc).Details at, “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka?“.
@Siebe: Do you mean: Can natural bhavanga be changed?.
No. The natural bhavnga is unchanged for the whole bhava, even for future births within the same bhava.
One cannot really feel one’s bhavanga, just like one cannot see one’s own eye (except in a mirror). But, it is the bhavanga that makes conditions for compatible thought objects to come in (through the mana indriya).
For example, when one is in a “temporary sad bhavanga state” one feels an overall sadness only because more and more sad thoughts come to the mind. One does not directly feel the sadness. When one is in a “temporary angry bhavanga state” one feels an overall state of anger only because more and more angry thoughts come to the mind.
But one CAN overcome that by forcing the mind to focus on something different. Here the best is to start thinking about the drawbacks (adinava) of continuing to be angry.
Therefore, the key point is that when one learns Dhamma, one will not be bound by bhavanga (unless one has an ahetuka birth). One can learn to be mindful and change the initial course of action that is set automatically by the bhavanga, gati, avijja, etc. While one cannot change bhavanga, one can change gati and avijja. That is why Nibbana is possible.
Hello, Rajitha. Welcome to the forum!
Namarupa formation is a deep subject. I recommend reading the subsection: “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa“.
Of course namarupa formation is subjective. Basically, one “prepares one’s own future” by the way one cultivates one’s sankhara. “Sankhara paccaya vinnana” leads to the cultivation of different types of vinnana, which in turn give rise to kamma beeja for future births. The Paticca Samuppada cycle leads to bhava and jati, and thus to all future suffering.
This is where one puts together all aspects of one’s understanding of Buddha Dhamma. Vinnana is the the link between between mind and matter, as explained in that subsection.
Siebe said: “Thanks Lal. Unfortunately I do not know that sutta. Do you, or somebody else, have a reference?”
When I come across it, I will post it here. Hoepfully, someone else will post it sooner.
Siebe said: “Do you agree the breaktrough is a life-changing event or is it not that dramatic?”.
Of course, one’s life is drastically changed at the phala moment. But it is not like one feels that like a thunder striking.
One realizes that a drastic change had happened over days, weeks. When one thinks back and compare past events to one’s current state of the mind (cooling down), one can see a drastic change. And over time, based on how one responds to certain situations, one can see that too. How I think about what the Sotapanna stage means, is probably evident from my writings. It cannot be put into a single paragraph. But the main thing was the realization that it is unfruitful to do even the slightest “immoral thing” no matter how much one can get back materially (money, fame, etc) by doing it. Another thing is that even if you do something wrong (or not quite optimally), you have a nagging feeling that you should have responded differently for the rest of the day.
Akavan said: “There is no explanation about a Chetho Vimuttho person”.
The Buddha attained the Buddhahood via akuppa cetovimutti. How he went up the “Ariya jhana ladder” on the night of attaining the Buddhahood is described in detail in the “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)”. The sutta ends with the Buddha declaring:”..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me cetovimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
As pointed out in the “Maha Nidana Sutta (Digha Nikāya 15)”, when one attains the akuppa cetovimutti, one automatically becomes an ubhatovimutti.
Furthermore, it appears that a Pannavimutti Arahant could become an Ubhatovimutti by cultivating jhana.
As we have emphasized before, all types of Arahants, and even the Buddha, gets to the same Nibbana. They all attain Parinibbana (full release) upon the death of the physical body.
Siebe said: “It seems like realising Sotapanna stage in the sutta’s is expressed in different ways..”.
Yes. It can be expressed in many different ways.
Not only that, but different people attain the Sotapanna stage by “seeing” it in their own ways.There is a sutta where a bhikkhu was perplexed when hearing different Sotapannas explaining what they understood it to be. The Buddha gave an example of different people describing a certain tree based on what the most significant thing they saw about the tree: how the leaves, fruits, or trunk look like.
Siebe said: “This breaktrough is very difficult to realise. It is compared to splitting a hair in 7 pieces by an arrow (SN56.45)!
Does this still refer to Sotapanna or maybe to arhant stage?”.
That sutta is about the Arahant stage, FULLY comprehending (“yathābhūtaṃ paṭivijjhanti..”) the Four Noble Truths.
Siebe said: “I have understood that bhava can (also) refer to a specific state of mind in this live (point 2 in your post)…It is not really clear to me what is the difference between those two.”
Here is #2 on the post:
“2. Basically, bhava means “the potential for existence” in EITHER one of the 31 realms of possible existence (we can see just the human and animal realms) OR as some specific state of mind within the current life.
– In the first category, there is human bhava, animal bhava, Tusita deva bhava, peta bhava, abhassara brahma bhava, etc.: existence in one of the 31 possible realms. As we will see below, many such “potential bhava” exists for each living being, and at the end of the current bhava, a new one will grasped based on the relative energies for various bhava (kamma beeja) that one has cultivated in one’s past.
– Even during this lifetime, we “live under different existences” based on significant life events. This is the second category. For example, a normally “good person” may become violent for a short time upon seeing his wife in bed with another man, or one will live in a “state of sorrow” for many days upon the death of a loved one.”
In the first category, “the state of the mind” is that state acquired at the moment of grasping the current human bhava, as explained in the post. For example, like remembering previously done good deed.
First kind lasts through the lifetime, and the second kind is temporary, short term, AND changes from event to event. Of course, the second kind overrides the first kind while it is in effect, but the first kind ALWAYS comes back.
Can you state clearly why you don’t see the difference between those two categories?
Johnny_Lim said:”Is the Bhavanga maintained by our kammic energy, specifically by the Jīvitindriya cetasika?”.
That is a good question. I had not thought about it. But here are some initial thoughts.
Bhavanga is a “state of mind”. When fully in bhavanga, there no flowing citta vithi. However, bhavanga citta can fill in parts of a citta vithi. So, all universal cetasika will be in any bhavanga citta. However, I have not seen any information about the involvement of cetasika in a fully bhavanga state. May be someone else has more information on this.
Yes. While depressing and saddening, your Grandma’s experience could be related to what you suggested. I have heard and read similar accounts from many others.
There are several accounts in the Tipitaka too. Cunda Sukara, who killed pigs for living, screamed like a dying pig for several days at the end before dying. The Buddha said that it was because he was seeing images of an apaya where he was going to be born.
Siebe said: “MN44 §7 is about how sakkaya ditthi is establised and §8 how it is not established. Maybe you have translated §8?”
Yes. I had inadvertently looked at the wrong paragraph. So, both Bhikkhu Bodhi’s and Sutta Central translations DO NOT have those inherently incorrect translations.
However, as I pointed out the key point is the translation of “samanupassati”, as just “seeing”.
Siebe said: “So, indeed, i think this sutta’s want to express there is indeed a huge difference between ending sakkaya ditthi and really experience in a detached manner.
This makes sense for me.”
I am glad to hear that. This is a subtle point, yet it makes a huge difference in grasping the difference between the Sotapanna stage (removing Sakkaya Ditthi) and the Arahant stage (removing asmi mana, the “perception of “me”).
