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Ito satta tato satta (seven there and seven here),
saṃsārāni (in rebirth process) catuddasa (fourteen)OR, Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths.
Also, I think “rebirth” is a better word than “transmigration”. The latter is used more with reincarnation, a Hindu concept:
What Reincarnates? – Concept of a LifestreamEither Satagiri or Hemavata MUST have been a Sotapanna for Lady Kali to attain the Sotapanna stage by listening to their discussion.
I do not have time to read the document. But something appears to be wrong with the above extractions from that document.
My statements are based on what happens in the mind per Abhidhamma.
However, since these processes happen very fast, one may not (and actually does not) actually experience the “neutral vedana” due to the initial response by the mind.
This is an important point. The question is legitimate. I added a statement to that post to make it clear.
Hi Akvan:
As I said earlier: “But that COULD take more than seven jati or births within those seven bhava. There is no stated limit to number of jati within a given bhava.”
There are only two bhava involved here, 7 births in each bhava. That is what is meant by: “..Seven from here, seven from there”.
He was born a human 7 times before being born in the deva realm. It appears that he died very early in each of those. Even if one lives for a day that a birth.
Then he was had a cuti-patisandhi transition to the deva bhava. Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.
– So, there had been only one bhava change (i.e., cuit-patisandhi).There is some information relevant to lay people in the subsection “Greetings”, in the following article:
The Buddhist Monk’s Discipline: Some Points Explained for LaypeopleFrom SN 25.1: “. .abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti.”
The key word is “tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ” or “time expiration”. Many people translate it as “time expiration for the current physical body”, but it could mean “time expiration for the human bhava”. In either case, it is a negligible time in the samsaric time scale.
– One will not be reborn in the apayas.upekkha100: Yes. What you stated is correct.
On the last one, the sequence given in the sutta is: kāyānupassanā, vēdanānupassanā, cittānupassanā, and dhammānupassanā.
However, one can actually do all of them at the same time. Being mindful involves first three, and that can be done anytime.
Dhammānupassanā is best to be done when one can contemplate at a quiet time.
Sotapanna Anugami is also a Noble person, one of the “attha purisa puggala”, or the “eight Noble persons”.
So, a Sotapanna Anugami must have a tihetuka birth.
Vedana and sankhara and two different things.
In the five aggregates we have: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara,and vinnana.
As you pointed out earlier, vedana and sanna are mano sankhara. So, they are part of sankhara, but they are separated from vaci and kaya sankhara because they (vedana and sanna) arise with each and every citta.
So, vedana is very different from vaci and kaya sankhara.
I think it will become clear if you had read the following post:
Vedana (Feelings)The website is getting bigger, so it may be hard to figure out where to start.
Anyway, let us keep the discussion going, because these are important issues. I can see you are making a strong effort, so I want to help you figure it all out.
Mahendran said: “It seems and sounds like an extraordinary experience to have attained a jhana.”
Actually — for those people who had attained jhana in recent human lives — it is not that hard to get into (anariya) jhana.
It is like once one learns how to ride a bike, that habit stays. Even if one does not ride a bike for many years, it would be easy to do.
Upekkha100 said: “As per MN44, vedana is in mano sankhara. Mano sankhara is defined as vedana and sanna” AND “And mano sankhara(vedana/sanna) are automatic/unconscious due to our gati, thus we don’t have conscious control to stop this step.”
Those are correct. Vedana and sanna are universal cetasika and they arise in each and every citta.
Upekkha asked: “ Is samphassa ja vedana(somanassa/domanassa) in mano sankhara or vaci sankhara? I’d think mano sankhara, but the reason why I’m not sure is because it has been described as what sounds like vaci sankhara to me.”
Samphassa ja vedana are initially mano sankhara. They also arise according to one’s gati. That is critically important to see. An Arahant does not have samphassa ja vedana.
Upekkha asked: “The part about stopping samphassa ja vedana-this does not mean to actually stop the feeling itself right? Because we can’t help it, it is automatic and super fast. Does this mean more along the lines to stop the automatic samphassa ja vedana(mano sankhara) from escalating into vaci sankhara/kaya sankhara?”
One cannot stop samphassa ja vedana as they arise. Just like in getting rid of tanha, stopping samphassa ja vedana REQUIRES Satipatthana/Anapana (via gradually reducing/getting rid of one’s gati).Does that make it clear? If not, we can discuss more. It is important to clarify these issues, since they are the basis of Satipatthana/Anapana.
P.S. I just revised the post in question and gave it a new title, “Vēdanā and Samphassa Jā Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings“.
Also read: “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
Siebe said: “To know that one is living does’t that need citta vitthi’s running?”
Do you feel that you are living while you are in deep sleep? An extreme case is when one becomes unconscious.
Only while awake one can feel one is alive.
Siebe said: “I learned bhavanga is also the state in which we are when we are in deep dreamless sleep. Is this correct?”
No. Even in deep sleep there are atiparittarammana citta vithi running for breathing. But those do not have javana citta, and thus one does not feel them. Of course, in between those atiparittarammana citta vithi, mind is in bhavanga.
Here is a summary of jhana to my knowledge:
Jhainc states correspond to the mental states in the brahma realms. The first four jhanas correspond to the rupavacara brahma realms and the higher jhanas correspond to the arupavacara brahma realms.
The jhanic experience is the same whether they are Ariya or anariya jhana.
The critical difference is the following: Kama raga (cravings for sense pleasures including sex) and patigha (tendency get angry) will be SUPPRESSED (vishkambana pahana) while in anariya jhana. But if one can get into even the first Ariya jhana, then kama raga and patigha would be completely REMOVED (no anusaya remain).Therefore, if one can get into the first Ariya jhana, one is an Anagami.
In the same way, avijja is SUPPRESSED at the fourth anariya jhana, but is REMOVED at the fourth Ariya jhana. That means one is at or close to the Arahant stage if one can get onto the fourth Ariya jhana.
Therefore, only that person who is experiencing a given jhana can determine whether it is an anariya jhana or an Ariya jhana.
It is not necessary to have any jhana to attain a magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage.
On the other hand, one could be a Sotapanna and may have anariya jhanas.
There is nothing “bad” about anariya jhana. All jhanas are mental states corresponding to brahma realms, and one would be born in that realm at death. The difference is that one with an anariya jhana (without magga phala) will come back to human and even lower realms in the future. One with an Ariya jhana will never come back to the kama loka at all. A Sotapanna with an anariya jhana will also not come back to kama loka.
These are discussed in detail with sutta references at: ‘Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna”. More details at: “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala“.
Personally, I have not experienced the fourth jhana, where one is totally covered with white light (according to suttas). It is not that others can see that white light; that is what one in jhana “sees”.
I do believe that many people who have attained Ven. Abhaya’s meditation sessions have attained the fourth jhana (I have watched a few youtube videos where their experiences are described). But the question is how many of those are actually Ariya jhanas. Only those persons would know.
If any of your friends like to share their experiences, that would be great. Many people at this forum are not able to watch and understand those videos where jhanic experiences are described by the participants of Abhaya Thero’s sessions.
Siebe said: ” I always thought that life is somehow maintained by this continuum of citta’s from one life to the other.”
There are no citta for a being in the asanna realm during that whole lifetime. Life is always maintained by the kammic energy.
In sanna-vedayita-nirodha, there are no citta vithi or bhavanga.
See:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
