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upekkha100 said: “These breakthroughs, are they not same as epiphanies/sudden realizations/aha moments/eureka moments. These realizations are not exclusive to Ariyas. Numerouss people have these…”
Yes. Scientists or innovators have such feelings too upon “figuring out something new”.
But there is a huge difference in the experience of the Ariyas. This is the only way to get to Ariya samadhi, which will get to a stage where it cannot be broken. This is what I explained in my previous post (with Upanisa Sutta).
– All others are just temporary.“Do I have this correct:
Before the revision:
1) an Arahant would have none of the 6 root causes of existence.
2) 3 Good causes would have been automatically removed AFTER removing the 3 bad causes.After the revision:
1) Only the 3 bad causes of existence are removed.
2) The 3 good causes of existence remain. They still have the 3 good causes of existence. And are at their maximum too. However, the conditions are removed. Hence why no bad rebirth nor good rebirth will emerge because the Arahant will not upadana neither the bad kamma beeja nor upadana the good kamma beeja?”Yes.
Lang said: “Finally, one question about the post: what about vēdanā arising from mind input? Does it also start as upekkha vēdanā, and then (for a normal human) turn automatically into dōmanassa or sōmanassa vēdanā?”.
Yes.
– But it needs to be kept in mind that we will not be able to discern the “initial upekkha vedana” in any of these. The follow-up with “samphassa ja vedana” happens within a split second (based on our gathi). We do not have any control over that.
– What we can do is to change our gathi over time. Then with time, “samphassa ja vedana” will diminish.It is true that there were yogis (and could be at any time) with abhinna (supernormal) powers who can see some of these things. This especially true for seeing past lives and being able to even visit brahma realms (by cultivating jhanas, which correspond to mental states of those brahma realms). But I am not sure whether they can see apayas.
In any case, there are many concepts in several religions, especially in Hinduism, that are coming from the previous Buddha, Buddha Kassapa, who was there before before Buddha Gotama during this Maha Kappa.
– This gets into archaeological dating problems (these dating techniques can only go back about 100,000 years), so I try to keep away from this topic. This is an issue that could deviate attention from more important issues such as incorrect interpretations of Buddha Dhamma.
– Again, there is so much that modern science is still not aware of.“In one of Lal’s earlier posts, I think it was mentioned that tanha arises from asavas and that avijja and asavas strengthen each other.”
Is it this post: “Gathi (Gati), Anusaya, and Āsava”
I put in “asava tanha” in the “Search box” and this is one of the posts that came up.
Tanha and avijja go together. Both grow together and are eliminated together at the Arahant stage.
They are related to lobha and moha respectively. The other root cause dosa is a manifestation of lobha. So, when lobha and moha (or tanha and avijja) are eliminated all three root causes are eliminated.
P.S. Siebe just sent me a reference sutta that explains this:
“34. Causes (AN 3.34)”
Thank you, Siebe!“Btw, what about animals without brains? Do they have mana indriya? ”
Even an amoeba has all six sense faculties. It is just that in such lower animals, they are not clearly distinguished. There is still so much that modern science is unable to detect.
For example, scientists have found that even animals with a single cell move towards light. They don’t know how the animal senses light.
It was not Vishaka, y not. But thanks for trying to find the reference.
It is correct that Visakha also attained the Sotapanna stage an early age. But she married a rich person.
Tien is correct that it does not really matter much where the mana indriya is located in the brain, for attaining Nibbana.
However, it is good to confirm the teachings of the Buddha with modern science (as new evidence emerge), as long as one does not spend an excessive time doing it.
– It builds faith and also may convince others who are skeptical of Buddha’s teachings.So, I try to make these connections whenever opportunities arise. I discussed this issue a little bit in #6 of “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)“.
– Those who are interested in this issue should read the book referred to there.As I briefly explained in that post, “saññā” or perception (recognition of external objects) depends on the ability to recall memories (nama gotta). We cannot do that without the mana indriya.
– Patient HM discussed in that book lost his ability to recognize people after a tiny part of his brain was removed in order to suppress his epileptic seizures. So, that is where the mana indriya is located.I will write another post on this issue in the future, but this is real evidence from modern science confirming Buddha’s description of how the mind works.
Thanks for the reference to the book, Nikita. I plan to read it.
Here is what we know from the suttas. For example, from the Dutiya sāriputtasutta (SN 55.5): ““Sappurisasaṃsevo hi, bhante, sotāpattiyaṅgaṃ, saddhammassavanaṃ sotāpattiyaṅgaṃ, yonisomanasikāro sotāpattiyaṅgaṃ, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti sotāpattiyaṅgan”ti.
Now, saddhammassavanaṃ means “listening to Saddhamma or the correct Dhamma”.
P.S. Of course, printed material was not widely available at the time of the Buddha. It is, however, possible that the “tone” of an Ariya could make a difference. So, this is one those issues that we may not have a definite answer.As for whether listening to recorded desanas count, again we will not know for sure. But Waharaka Thero’s opinion was that it would.
There is the second issue of the attainment of the Sotapanna stage, here are two extremes that have been reported in the Tipitaka:
- Bhikkhu Potila KNEW inside out of the Tipitaka (but had not really comprehended Tilakkhana). Therefore, he had not attained the Sotapanna stage:
Are You Not Getting Expected Results from Meditation? - On the other hand, there was a princess who had attained the Sotapanna stage at age 7, and then eloped with a person who lived by hunting animals and selling their meat. I don’t remember the reference in the Tipitaka. If someone knows, please post it.
- There was Sarakani brahmin, who drank a lot, attained the Sotapanna stage in his old age, but could not remove his habit of drinking even after attaining the Sotapanna stage: Paṭhama Saraṇānisakka Sutta (SN 55.24).
P.S. It is quite clear that “comprehending Tilakkhana” cannot be put into words. It is a “vision of the true nature of this world”.
– Another important point is that those who are able to “get it” do not do that without prior effort. They had made much progress in past lives.
– That is why making the effort now will not go to waste.So, it is impossible for others to determine whether a given person has attained the Sotapanna stage. The person would need to decide that based on his/her experience.
– In any case, if someone can “feel the joy” of Dhamma, it is likely that one is at least getting close to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Again, there is no “test” for that either.
– It is best to keep striving regardless of what the status is. That effort will not go to waste.By the way, this “feeling of joy” (piti) when learning Dhamma (whether listening or reading) is a good sign. It leads to sukha, samadhi, and eventually to Nibbana, as described in the Upanisa Suatta (SN 12.23):
“..dukkhūpanisā saddhā, saddhūpanisaṃ pāmojjaṃ, pāmojjūpanisā pīti, pītūpanisā passaddhi, passaddhūpanisaṃ sukhaṃ, sukhūpaniso samādhi, samādhūpanisaṃ yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṃ, yathābhūtañāṇadassanūpanisā nibbidā, nibbidūpaniso virāgo, virāgūpanisā vimutti, vimuttūpanisaṃ khayeñāṇaṃ.”
You may want to read different translations and see which one is better. I will translate at some point, but the idea should be clear in any translation.
“Question:
Is tanha the cause or condition? Or both depending on the situation?”Tanha can be cause or condition. Same for avijja. Both are root causes (related to lobha and moha).
Both of them will remain as anusaya until the Arahant stage is reached.
But they are not there all the time. They may be activated by a strong sense input.
Of course, BOTH will be lost at the same time. There can be no tanha if avijja is removed and vice versa.
Lvalio said: ” I felt intense Joy when reading for the first time the Sutta “Dvayatānupassanā Sutta-3.12. Observation of Dualities (Sutta Nipāta – Dvayatānupassanā Sutta – 3.12. Observation of Dualities)”
That is indeed a good sutta that explains the way to Nibbana. I just read it. Thanks for that reference.
You can try to locate relevant posts by using the “Search box” on top right. It comes with a list of regular posts and relevant comments in the forum. Search for “Angulimala” and may be you can find it that way.
It is essential that one must learn about the Tilakkhana from an Ariya to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– However, “learning about the true explanation of Tilakkhana” is not enough, as Tien pointed out with the example of Ven. Potila that I discussed in a past post.However, if one truly believes that one has an understanding of the “unfruitful nature” or the “anicca nature” one could be a Sotapanna or a Sotapanna Anugami. One could probably confirm for oneself by comparing whether one’s behavior has changed.
The best example I can give is about one trying to quit smoking. So, he learns about the bad consequences of smoking.
– If he really gets the idea that it is dangerous to keep smoking, he would at least cut down on smoking.
– But it may take some time to totally quit, by really getting the “sanna” that it is indeed dangerous to smoke.
– However, if the message DID really register in his mind, sooner or later, he would totally quit. Then there is no doubt.upekkha100 said: “English:
“Wandering for alms — weak, leaning on a staff, with trembling limbs — I fell down right there on the ground. Seeing the drawbacks of the body, my mind was then set free. ”In Pali it is:
“Vīrā vīrehi dhammehi,
bhikkhunī bhāvitindriyā;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti ”That is not the Pali verse for the above translation.
The gāthā is:
“Piṇḍapātaṃ caritvāna,
daṇḍamolubbha dubbalā;
Vedhamānehi gattehi,
tattheva nipatiṃ chamā;
Disvā ādīnavaṃ kāye,
atha cittaṃ vimucci me”ti.
(17. Dhammātherīgāthā)Obviously that bhikkhuni had attained the Sotapanna stage previously. She saw the drawbacks of the physical body and was able to overcome the remaining 7 samyojana.
Only the Sotapanna stage requires listening to Dhamma. Without that “vision” of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature, one cannot attain the Sotapanna stage. Once one has that correct “picture of the 31 realms”, then one needs to lose the “wrong sanna” too. That happens via the the next stages and is completed at the Arahant stage.
– The bhikkhuni could have had the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or the Anagami stage.Yes. She could have attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life. One needs to “see” the real nature of this world only once. Once “seen” it is never lost.
I manage this discussion forum with the goal of providing benefit to the most number of people possible. If I try to be “politically correct” and let a given discussion go way off the topic or if someone is trying to bring in a totally different point of view (which is not backed by the Tipitaka), that will take the focus away from the forum and the website.
Compassion is not superficial.
In the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38), Buddha called Sati bhikkhu a “mogha purisa” or “an empty or foolish person”. That was obviously not done to verbally abuse him, but to get the point across.
This is what I recently learned at the other discussion forum too, where some people were making useless comments. “Baby sitting” those people would only make them more bold and daring (By the way, I would not put Siebe in that category; Siebe is sincere about his ideas. It is just that the discussion was not going anywhere. This has happened several times with Siebe’s topics in the past).
I will make calls on the basis of keeping in mind the benefits for the wider audience.
Siebe: There is no point in making statements without backing up with Tipitaka evidence.
If you want to make a case, please provide evidence. Otherwise, this discussion is not going anywhere.
This website is filled with evidence that “a person” is nothing but a “set of gati”. Suffering arises because we all have “immoral gati”. Even though we also have “moral gati”, they do not lead to high-levels of suffering.
However, when we get rid of “immoral gati”, one realizes that those “moral gati” also lead to births that are of unsatisfactory nature, and end up with suffering because one will encounter death eventually. Furthermore, upon death from that “good birth” one can and will be born with a “bad birth” filled with much suffering.
Thus when one attains the Arahant stage, one gets rid of “all gati that have arisen due to abhisankhara”.
But until that Arahant’s physical body dies, he/she will have some kammically neutral gati, as I explained in my previous post.
Unless you can provide concrete evidence from the Tipitaka to backup your claims, please do not bother to make “statements”. That will only clutter this discussion board.
Siebe said: “Someone who uproots all those anusaya only becomes more him/herself.”
That is contrary to all the teachings of the Buddha.
One attains the Arahanthood when one uproots all anusaya. We need to remember that anusaya are the “hidden defilements (lobha, dosa, moha)” waiting to come to the surface when strong enough sense inputs are received.
When one one uproots all anusaya one would have removed all gati (gathi) too.
Then one (a living Arahant) would only have “kammically neutral gati” like specific ways one speaks, walks, eats, dresses, etc. etc.
– When the physical body dies all gati would be gone. - Bhikkhu Potila KNEW inside out of the Tipitaka (but had not really comprehended Tilakkhana). Therefore, he had not attained the Sotapanna stage:
