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That is an incorrect translation. There is nothing in this world that lasts forever.
Only Nibbana, which is an asankata, lasts forever.
Kammic energies are sankata, created by the mind, via (abhi)sankhara.
Kammic energies are created by 7 javana citta. Javana citta start with “low intensity” in the first javana, and gain strength to about the fourth javana and then start decreasing in strength. So, by the time the seventh javana comes, it is weak. (imagine a sprinter starting from zero speed, gaining speed and then slowing down and coming to a stop).
So, kamma done with first javana citta are weak and can bring vipaka only during this life.
– Kamma done with the last javana is also weak and cannot bring vipaka beyond the next existence.
– The middle five javana are strong and can bring vipaka for a long time. I don’t think a specific time is given when that energy runs out. It probably varies for each citta vithi; some are more powerful than others.However, there is a sutta where the Buddha says that when one does an alms giving (dana), that good kamma vipaka can last for 91 maha kappas. A maha kappa is about 10 billion years, so it is like a trillion years. That is a long time, but not forever.
Yes. It does not CONTAMINATE beyond the mansan stage.
However, it incorporates all previous memories, and thus is still called vinnana and vinnanakkhandha (it is understood that for an Arahant those are undefiled).
You may want to read the following post to see how any khandha (rupakkhandha, etc, the five AGGREGATES) incorporate past, present, future,…11 types to make it to an aggregate (see #3):
Difference Between Rupa and RupakkhandhaWithout incorporating previous memories, an Arahant will not be able to recall past memories, etc.
So, the arising citta will not contaminate beyond the manasan stage, but will incorporate those 11 types to make it to an (undefiled) vinnanakkhandha or an aggregate.
“Do I have this correct:
1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.
3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.
4) An Arahant still has good vinnana.”
Yes. An Arahant has undefiled vinnana (one could call that “good vinnana”), which is attained at the optimum of the set of sobhana cetasika, that includes panna.
No. Different types of ñāna (insights) are gained while one is cultivating paññā.
For example, udayavaya ñāna and namarupa paricceda ñāna are gained before one can attain the Arahant stage. Of course, one attains the Atahant stage when one’s paññā is optimized.
Samma ñāna and paññā are both fulfilled at the Arahant stage.
Yes. There are many cases like this. We just need to evaluate them using Dhamma concepts. Buddha Dhamma is self-consistent.
- Anyone may act with amoha at times, but panna needs to be cultivated (by comprehending Tilakkhana).
- To comprehend Tilakkhana fully (and thus to cultivate panna to the fullest), one must have a tihetuka birth.
- To get a tihetuka birth one must be born with a kamma done with alobha, adosa, amoha. That is why it is called Tihetuka.
- Therefore, amoha is a pe-requisite to be able to cultivate panna.
That is why amoha is not panna.
upekkha100: It does not say good roots are removed; please read it carefully. It says, those kamma done with good roots will not bring vipaka anymore.
That is because, one has cultivated all sobhana cetasika (including panna) to the optimum (so the good roots are working at optimum), and thus will not grasp a new bhava via, “vedana paccaya tanha“, “tanha paccaya upadana“, and “upadana paccaya bhava“.
– When there is no new bhava, there will no new jati to experience even those good kamma.This is an important point. So, let me explain a bit more.
Just because there are causes, the results WILL NOT follow if CONDITIONS are removed.
– That is what is explained in Paticca Samuppada.For example, a seed may last thousands of years, but WILL NOT bring about a tree unless suitable conditions (i.e., soil, water, sunlight, etc) become available.
One’s good kamma beeja may be there, but they will NEVER get an opportunity to germinate once one removes the “bad three roots” and cultivates the “good three roots” to the extent that one will never go through the steps in Paticca Samuppada starting with “vedana paccaya tanha”..
firewns said: “There are those who crave to be loved, respected and admired. Others want to feel that they are living a life that matters, even though unbeknownst to them, they can never really live a truly meaningful life, unless it is to seek a way out of an ultimately meaningless existence (with anatta nature).
Are those subtle forms of bhavasava?”
That could be due to bhavasava (craving for existence: “I want to live”) and avijjasava (ignorance of the suffering associated with any existence).
Kamasava (craving for sense pleasures) is not there, and one may or may not have removed ditthasava (a Sotapanna could have such a mindset and even an Anagami to some extent).
However, if that mindset is not permanent, i.e., if cravings for sense pleasures comes back even once, that means one still have kamasava (as anusaya or hidden) as well.
– If ditthasava is there, kamasava is definitely there.
– Those asava are removed in the following order: ditthasava (Sotapanna), kamasava (Anagami), bhavasava and avijjasava (Arahant).Hello upekkha100,
You said: “I don’t know if the entirety of my last reply is appearing.”Do you mean part of your post is missing? I checked the spam folder and there was nothing there.
I think the English translation of the sutta is very clear (there are no hidden meanings in this sutta, and the translation is pretty much straight forward):
“Causes (AN 3.34)”There is no need to further clarify the part that you highlighted. For example, “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed (alobha), caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising..”. AND same for adosa and amoha.
Yes. The Buddha pointed out the dangers in sense pleasures. The only “pleasure” recommended by the Buddha was “jhanic pleasures”.
– But he did not recommend getting to anariya jhana by using anariya techniques like the breath mediation.When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):
“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.
Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.Of course, even here one may get into anariya jhana by the suppression of kama raga.
– The point is that one DOES NOT HAVE TO do anariya meditation techniques (like breath meditation) to even to get to anariya jhana.
– Anariya jhana just means one has not yet eliminated the kama raga. Even while doing insight meditation, one may get to anariya jhana by just suppressing kama raga. Later on, when one REMOVES kama raga, those will automatically become Ariya jhana.The point that I am trying to make is that doing breath meditation could be a waste of time.
- Jhana are mental states corresponding to brahma realms.
- For those who have cultivated jhana in previous recent past lives, they come naturally even without much effort.
- So, it could be difficult for others to attain jhanas, even if they have magga phala.
- As the above sutta illustrates, the key to the Arahanthood is to get to samādhi (jhana are a special case of samādhi).
More information at:
Mundane versus Supramundane JhānaAND
“Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”P.S. I think “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)” describes the jhanas in detail.
Thank you, Lair, for posting the link to that post.
Yes. There are not many people (including some Sotapannas) who may not really understand what vinnana is.
– I am glad to see that the level of understanding of the people who participate at our forum here is way better than even some scholars who write books.
– They do not have any idea how important the concept of vinnana is, or even what vinnana really means.It is not necessary to go that deep into vinnana to become a Sotapanna.
However, if one has understood vinnana at that level, one is likely to be a Sotapanna.
upekkha100 said: “I’ll give my points as to why even a good vinnana is contaminated and why an Arahant can’t have any sobhana cetasika in another reply later.”
OK.
“Dosa vinnana has one of the 3 bad roots/causes.
Karuna vinnana has one of the 3 good roots/causes.
Both are contaminated.”This is not right.
Vinnana is contaminated with dasa akusala.
Vinnana with sobhana cetasika are not considered contaminated.
All sobhana cetasika, including the panna cetasika, are optimized at the Arahant stage.
An Arahant does not get a new bhava because he/she would not go through the “vedana paccaya tanha”, “tanha paccaya upadana”, and “upadana paccaya bhava” steps.Also see AN 3.34 mentioned in the post that I posted today at the “How can vedana paccaya phassa?” topic.
Yes. It also fits in with “there is no ESSENCE” in any of the pancakkhadha.
P.S. By the way, this use of the word “mendicant” for a bhikkhu is very bad. Mendicant means a “begger”. That is an insult to a bhikkhu. I do not understand why they cannot use the word “bhikkhu”. There is no need to translate each and every Pali word.
– As I have explained many times, some key Pali words cannot be should not be translated as a single English word: anicca, anatta, vinnana, sankhara, etc, etc.So, Tien has made the meaning of the sutta clear by just replacing the English translations by the original Pali words (anatta, atta), in case someone does not notice.
– For comparison, just go that link and see the English translation. Then you can see the difference.Ironically, the person who is using this word mendicant at Sutta Central is himself a bhikkhu.
