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These are fundamental concepts that may take some time to sort out. I just revised the following post to make it a little better:
“How Do Sense Faculties Become Internal Āyatana?“
- Another related post is “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” It needs a rewrite, and I will try to do it in the next few days.
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“Is this related to internal and external āyatana?”
- No. Both internal and external āyatana arise in the MIND.
1. The sensory faculties of an average human are “indriya.” They become “internal āyatana“ only if we use them with raga, dosa, or moha.
- When an “indriya“ becomes “internal āyatana,” it does not grasp an accurate representation of an external rūpa (sights, sounds, tastes, smells, touches, and memories). Thus, the mind experiences a “distorted version” of a given rupa. That “distorted version” of a given rupa is called an “external āyatana“ (for example, “my house,” “my friend,” etc.) Therefore, an external āyatana is a “distorted version” of a given external rūpa. That is why one attaches to it. For an Arahant, external rupās never become external āyatana; they are just external rupās.
- Note that an “external āyatana” arises in the mind. It is NOT the external rupa.
- There is no equivalent English word for āyatana.
2. The Buddha did not describe the mechanism of how external rupa arise due to the COLLECTIVE kammic energies generated by living beings. It is critical to realize that the physical objects in the external world do not arise due to one mind but due to ALL relevant minds. That is likely to be a very complex process, and we don’t need to understand it.
- To attain Nibbana, we must understand how an INDIVIDUAL MIND (specifically one’s own mind) attaches to worldly things.
- That is the process explained by Paticca Samuppada.
- Both internal āyatana and external āyatana arise in a given mind.
Yes. The kammic energies generated when one engages in akusala kamma (with abhisankhara) lead to two effects: (i) they can bring vipaka for that person in the future (for example, lead to rebirth in a given realm), and (ii) that energy also contributes to the preparation of the external environment (creating the environment necessary if it does not exist, or to maintain that environment).
- For example, when the Sun, Earth, and other planets are “re-formed,” initially, all four lowest realms are absent. Then, as people (Brahma-kayika humans) start gradually “going back to their old ways and engaging in akusala kamma,” they generate kammic energies not only for their own individual futures but also collectively to make the environment for such birth to occur.
- For example, the animal realm is likely to emerge first. Initially, the environment for animals to survive (vegetation) was absent. With the collective kammic energy being generated, that environment emerges first. Then, the first animals of a given type appear with opapatika births.
- This is a fascinating account, but I don’t want to spend too much time on it. Yet, it is good to have these basic ideas. I don’t think there are explicit explanations in the Tipitaka, but we can deduce these possibilities based on the Agganna Sutta. Waharaka Thero delivered a couple of discourses on this topic.
Pathfinder wrote:
“There is also another meaning of Jāti in that post:
8. When one gets deeper into Buddha Dhamma, one can see that everything in this world is “born” due to causes and effects, i.e., Paṭicca Samuppāda. For example, a tree is born out of a seed. A car is “born” in a factory. Paṭicca Samuppāda can describe all those.Do you think the jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of things outside of us is applicable in the Noble Truths as well?”
- Yes. Everything in the world arises via the mind. That is pointed out in the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” See “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).” This is why the Buddha stated that “mind is the precursor to everything in this world”: “Manōpubbangamā dhammā..”
- “jāti dhamma” (those that arise via Paticca Samuppada) include “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are all jāti dhamma.” See “Pāsarāsi Sutta (MN 26).”
- Note that the English translation in the above link is misleading/wrong: “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are liable to be reborn.”
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Taryal wrote: “Each birth ends in death with future uncertain.”
- Yes. Even a Deva or Brahma would not know where their next birth is!
- All of us were born Deva and Brahma (and in the apayas) countless times in this rebirth process.
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1. Pathfinder wrote: “From this, I wanted to ask if Jati in the first noble truth refers to all 3 kinds of Jati described in Jāti – Different Types of Births ..”
- Yes. The following is at the beginning of that post:
Three Main Meanings of Jāti
The commonly-used meaning of jāti is “birth,” as in the birth of a human body. We celebrate “birthdays” based on the day someone was born in this life. As we see below, Buddha Dhamma has two other (different) meanings depending on the context.
- In the Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda, jāti means the birth in a new realm among the 31 realms. For example, a living being can be born as a human, animal, Deva, Brahma, etc.; that is a birth in that existence. See, “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- On the other hand, in Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda, one can be “born” in countless “states” during a given lifetime. See #3 below.
- The above TWO are the main meanings of “jāti” in Buddha Dhamma. After understanding the concepts, one could use the same term appropriate for a given situation.
- Note that jāti is pronounced “jāthi” with “th” sound as in “three.” See “Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1.”
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2. Pathfinder wrote: “Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering.”
- That is not correct. Any and all types of jati embed suffering.
- All suffering stops only when the causes and conditions for any jati in the rebirth process or during a lifetime (as in Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda) stop.
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So, your only basis is the mundane interpretation of Waharaka Thero’s statement, not the sutta explanation. Of course, it is up to each person to decide.
- The whole verse in the sutta is “jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
- That last part is the conclusion: “in brief, the origin of suffering is the craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).”
- Every birth in any realm is based on “craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).”
In a deeper sense, Waharaka Thero‘s translation still holds. Each and every birth is an “undesirable birth.” That realization comes when one starts comprehending the Noble Truths. Then one would not desire any birth but Nibbana.
- By the way, (concerning your first comment above) one does (abhi)sankhara based on the “craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).” All such cravings stop only at the Arahant stage.
- In any case, if you are happy with your understanding, that is all that matters. I am not going to engage in debates. I gave that up when I stopped posting at the Dhamma Wheel discussion forum a couple of years ago. However, if anyone has questions about my explanation, feel free to ask.
P.S. I did not see Amin’s comment when I posted the above.
- I think the statement “The word “P” represents attachment” is not correct if he means “The word “pi” represents attachment.”
- For example, “Yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ” (in the long verse quoted above) is a shortened version of the verse (that rhymes). The expanded sentence is “Yam pi icchaṃ na labhati tam pi dukkhaṃ.”
- It is clear that “pi” in that short verse does not mean “attachment.” It is just a “connecting phrase.”
- As we can see, there are many different explanations. One is free to accept whichever makes sense to them. The endpoint is to understand the Noble Truths.
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All jati are undesirable. That is the explanation. No single “desirable jati” exists when one realizes that birth in any realm does not end suffering!
- Each and every jati is subject to: “Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ; saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
OK. Now, can you think through it and rewrite it or better explain what you meant to say with the following in your first comment?
“10.53 – Clarification of “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” It is not “everything” is dukkha, but the sankhara. We have been putting in a lot of effort, but the suffering is concealed by the reward at the end.”
- By the way, I listened to the clip by Waharaka Thero, and he did not say anything controversial or new.
- Remember that “sankhara” are generated in response to the vedana one feels.
OK. Let us figure out the first part first.
- It is true that “dukkha” is the “dukkha vedana.”
- But I really wanted to ask: What do you understand by dukkha in “Dukkha Sacca” or the “First Noble Truth about suffering?”
Let me ask the question another way. Is the First Nbole Truth about getting rid of “bodily suffering” as expressed in your quote from theSaccavibhaṅga Sutta?: “Yaṁ kho, āvuso, kāyikaṁ dukkhaṁ kāyikaṁ asātaṁ kāyasamphassajaṁ dukkhaṁ asātaṁ vedayitaṁ – Physical pain, physical unpleasantness, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.”
- I hope you agree that it is not.
- Those verses explain what happens whenever “a new jati” is started. The subsequent several verses explain other issues such as old age associated with each jati.
- The point is that the Noble Truths are about stopping new births so that one can stop all drawbacks associated with them (stated @marker 10.2): “Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ; saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
Let us consider this one first:
“10.53 – Clarification of “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” It is not “everything” is dukkha, but the sankhara. We have been putting in a lot of effort, but the suffering is concealed by the reward at the end.”
- “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” means “All sankhara dukkha.” It does not say “everything” is dukkha. So, there is nothing “new” there.
- What do you understand by “dukkha?” Is it the feeling of “dukkha vedana“?
Even though I write with conviction about specific issues, my conviction does not mean I must be correct. I make a conclusion based on my understanding of the Tipitaka at that time and the evidence available.
- Please don’t always agree with me. Look at the evidence from all possible sources (especially the Tipitaka and other teachers) and make your own conclusions.
- In some cases, I have changed my position based on previously uncovered evidence from the Tipitaka (and in some cases) with a better understanding of concepts.
- I have realized that I need to make revisions to multiple old posts. I am going through them as time permits. In that regard, recent posts have the most up-to-date information. Even though we are deeply indebted to Waharaka Thero for “opening a new era in discovering the true teachings of the Buddha,” it is an ongoing process. Only a Buddha can be 100% correct. We can only get close to the true teachings as we make progress. Hopefully, this progress will continue even after our deaths with a new generation of Arahants.
- So, please don’t hesitate to point out any contradictions based on the Tipitaka. Not being Arahants, one’s first instinct is to “defend one’s position.” We must resist that temptation and be welcoming of such inputs. Of course, those suggestions must be based on the Tipitaka and logical. The Buddha advised us to make Dhamma our teacher after his passing (Prinibbana). No one, not even an Arahant, can take the place of the Buddha.
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Even though we are amazed by the ability of that yogi in Taryal’s video to withstand fire and not get burned, the supernormal abilities of some Arahants (not all) to engage in various supernormal activities is mind-boggling.
See, for example, “Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta (MN 77),” where the Buddha says:
“Furthermore, I have explained to my disciples a practice that they use to wield the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; appearing and disappearing; going unobstructed through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. They control the body as far as the realm of divinity.”
- In that verse, “touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon” requires one to reach the Sun and touch it. Of course, one would do that with the manomaya kaya, made of only a few suddhatthaka. That manomaya kaya can instantly travel to the Sun and not be burned by the unimaginable heat there. As discussed in the “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” the higher Brahma realms (where Brahmas’ “bodies” are made of only a few suddhatthaka) are not destroyed in a “loka vinasaya” (destruction of the lower realms) caused by a supernova event, which causes the heat of “seven Suns.” Once the fundamentals are understood, such phenomena are no longer “miracles.”
- Several suttas describe similar capabilities. I have discussed a few in the link provided above. See, for example, “Pāṭihāriya (Supernormal Abilities) of a Buddha – Part I” and Part II.
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It is an interesting video.
- It seems this yogi has perfected the anariya “tejo kasina” meditation using fire as the meditation object.
- Breath meditation is an anariya “vayo kasina” meditation using the breath as the meditation object.
- They also do anariya “pathavi and apo kasina” meditations using a ball of clay and a bowl of water as meditation objects.
As we have discussed pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo all have the mind as their precursor. See “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
- It is possible to “control those elements” with the mind and exploit that to engage in various “supernormal activities.”
- For example, even during the Buddha’s time, some yogis who perfected breath meditation (vayo kasina) could travel through the air by making their bodies “light.”
- Even these days, there are yogis who can lie on “beds of nails,” who have likely developed anariya “pathavi kasina” meditation.
- I have discussed some of these aspects in “Buddhahood Associated Controversies.”
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Yes, Gad. Those are good examples. Thank you!
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