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I didn’t realize Taryal had closed the thread because I posted my above comment.
- Pathfinder just emailed me saying he could not post. I have now re-opened the thread.
Pathfinder also emailed me saying it is Dhammapda verse 100: “Dhammapada Verse 100“
- I could not open the link Pathfinder emailed me, but the above should give the idea. Thank you, Pathfinder!
As I thought, that person, the executioner (Tambadathika) had attained anuloma nana before he died, i.e., Sotapanna Anugami. That is why he was reborn in a Deva realm.
- We also remember that Angulimala killed almost a thousand people but attained Arahanthood before death. See “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma.”
- Thus, as long as it is not an anantariya kamma, it can be overcome.
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Taryal does not want to participate in the discussion, but we can continue it because it may yield some insights.
- In particular, I like to see the sutta reference relevant to the last part of Yash’s comment. I believe there is more to that account.
Let me address Taryal’s comment regarding my comment. By analyzing that last part of Taryal’s comment, I think we can clarify a few issues.
Taryal: “Yes, but would you say that the “intention” here is the same as murdering a human who is already living independent of the mother and poses no harm to her?”
- Here, “intention” is a critical word. The Pali word is “cetanā.” However, as in many cases, we must understand that by “cetanā” the Buddha always referred to “sañcetanā” or “intentions with raga, dosa, moha embedded.” See, for example, “Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta (SN 22.57).” Also see “Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63)“: “Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṁ karoti—kāyena vācāya manasā.” OR “with (defiled) intention, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and mind.”
- Most people do not even know that taking a life can lead to harmful consequences, i.e., kamma vipaka. They don’t believe in kamma/kamma vipaka. That does not mean they did not have (defiled) intention!
- Therefore, ignorance is not an excuse. These are nature’s laws. Kamma vipaka happen not because the Buddha says so, but because it is how nature works. The Buddha only discovered nature’s laws.
- As I said many times above, living life is not easy. That is why we need to get out of the rebirth process. If one is born an animal, they have no way to rationalize why they can be eaten alive by a bigger animal. Some women say, “It is unfair that only women have to carry a baby in the womb.” But it is not a question of fairness; things happen due to causes and conditions.
Trayal wrote: “For instance, a policeman killing a criminal does so with a different intention than the opposite.”
- The policeman will bear the consequences of taking a life. He would also benefit from it if the criminal were about to kill another person. This is why sorting out kamma vipaka is impossible. Most actions involve both aspects.
Taryal wrote: ” If a wild animal kills its parent, that would not be an anantarika kamma, would it?”
- We don’t know with certainty because that has not been discussed directly in the Tipitaka, especially in the suttas. But it is unlikely to be.
- An animal’s mental states are very different from a human’s. Certain types of cittas cannot arise in an animal. So, it is likely from Abhidhamma analysis that an animal cannot do an anantarika kamma.
- Yet, we are talking about humans on this topic.
Taryal wrote: “..since there is no such thing as “absolute morality” (as I understand it)”
- Again, not knowing about kamma/kamma vipaka is not an excuse for humans. They have the capability to understand that taking a life is going to its consequences. People are trapped in the rebirth process because they are unaware of how nature works. Until a Buddha explains, and until one hears and comprehends it, no one would know.
- One could say that is unfair. But this world (nature) does not play by superficial “fairness.” There is a set of rules (Paticca Samuppada), and things happen according to those rules.
- Understanding Paticca Samuppada can reveal “absolute morality.” This will lead to the cessation of this world with all its conflicts and suffering.
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OK. I forgot the context.
- If Taryal was referring to aborting a pregnancy, I agree with Christian. Aborting a pregnancy is taking a human life, as I pointed out in previous comments. It is done with intention.
Taryal wrote: “So I remain unconvinced that their minds will release javana citta equivalent to the strength of “murdering” a human that is already living independent of their mother.”
- That statement is correct. When I wrote my comment, I thought you had written the opposite. That is why I recommended those two posts, which also convey the same idea that you did. Taking a human life is a billion-fold worse than killing an animal. Along the same line, taking the life of an Arahant (which is an anantariya kamma) is a billion-fold worse than killing an average human.
- Of course, we must refrain from taking any life.
P.S. Probably Christian read Taryal’s comment the same way I did.
“Does it mean that when I see a flower, then the cakkhu viññana is born, and when I close my eyes, the cakkhu viññana ceases?”
- Yes. You no longer see with your eyes closed.
- However, it is impossible to “close the mind” while you are conscious. So, you may be thinking about what you saw.
“In the same way, do the other aggregates arise and cease in this manner? Therefore when there is no input, no sights, smells, sounds, taste, touch, ideas temporarily (eg, in sleeping), there is no 5 aggregates arising at that moment?”
- Yes. We have five “doors” (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and the body) that bring external sensations (sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and body touches.)
- Four of those may be blocked by going into a dark, sound-proof room, but you will still feel your feet touching the floor. Again, it is impossible to “close the mind” while you are conscious.
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Yes. Kamma generation is a tricky subject.
- I suggest reading the posts “How to Evaluate Weights of Different Kamma“ and “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“
- We can discuss further after that.
You wrote: “And, I didn’t understand exactly what ‘a glimpse of Nibbana‘ means, which is thanks to your explanation that that experience happens without distorted saññā at the moment of attaining the Sotapanna stage.”
- I am glad that you understood.
- All our immoral deeds (and thus future suffering) are based on the distorted saññā, i.e., our false perception that external things (sights, sounds, tastes, ..) have mind-pleasing aspects embedded in them.
- Paṭicca Samuppāda programs our mental and physical bodies AND those external things to provide that distorted saññā. This is THE critical aspect to understand. I explained that in the first few posts in the “Worldview of the Buddha” section. Everything in the world arises via Paṭicca Samuppāda; it is a universal principle like Newton’s laws of motion. However, only a Buddha can discover Paṭicca Samuppāda because it is a mental phenomenon, not a material one.
- All our thinking is clouded by that distorted saññā. Thus, we could say it is a root cause of avijjā. That is why it is the “Root of All Things”: “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things” and “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on ‘Distorted Saññā’.”
- If someone can get that basic idea, the upcoming posts will help clarify things further. Otherwise, forthcoming posts may not make sense. Also, read the previous comments in this thread.
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Let me put it this way.
- At which stage does an embryo (gandhabba plus the zygote) become a living being?
Yes. These are critical aspects to understand. Let me try to answer your questions with the following key points.
1. A living being, while in the beginningless rebirth process, has ALWAYS experienced a “distorted sanna” corresponding to the realm they are in.
- The first experience without a “distorted sanna” occurs at the moment of attaining the Sotapanna stage. That is when, for the very first time,” one gets a glimpse of Nibbana or the “suffering-free pabhassara mind.” But even that is not the “suffering-free pabhassara mind” because it still has seven unbroken samyojana. Thus, that state is called “sappabhasa citta” or the other names mentioned in my earlier comment.
- The same is true when attaining the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. They will have five unbroken samyojana.
- However, at the moment of Arahanthood, all samyojana are removed, and one will experience the pabhassara citta/mind for the first time.
2. Whether it is a “sappabhasa citta” or a pabhassara citta, a mind can hold that state only for a brief time. The mind returns to the “normal state” (human bhavanga state).
- As we know, a Sotapanna can generate greedy or angry thoughts while living an everyday life as a “householder.”
- The only difference between a Sotapanna and a puthujjana is that a Sotapanna‘s mind will not allow committing an “apayagami deed” because of the absence of the first three samyojana.
- In the same way, an Anagami will not be tempted by any sensory input in kama loka (since kama raga samyojana is absent), but will still crave “jhanic pleasures.”
- Only an Arahant will not be tempted by anything.
3. However, as we have discussed, everyone born with a human body (including Arahants) experiences the “distorted sanna” associated with kama loka while living everyday life. But Arahants’ and Angamis‘ minds will not attach to that “distorted sanna.“
- All others will be attached to the “distorted sanna” at various levels.
4. Sotapannas and Sakadagamis can cultivate the lokuttara version of Satipatthana and “recover” the “sappabhasa citta.” While in that state, they can engage in Vipassana and eliminate kama raga to attain the Anagami stage.
- A puthujjana would first cultivate the mundane version of Satipatthana and “get close” to the “sappabhasa citta.” Then, while listening to a discourse, reading Dhamma concepts, or simply contemplating Dhamma concepts, they will get to the “sappabhasa citta” and attain the Sotapanna stage.
5. That is a summary. If you or anyone else has questions, please ask. However, I will discuss the above in detail in upcoming posts.
- It may seem that those below the Sotapanna stage don’t need to learn about the “distorted sanna.“
- However, I believe that “getting the full picture” would also make it easier to reach the Sotapanna stage. Understanding that all we crave is “not real” (they are illusions) makes a big difference in the mindset.
- People value “sensory pleasures” and are willing to lie, cheat, and even kill for them. Once Buddha’s worldview sinks into the mind, it will be easier to avoid “akusala kamma,” at least those with significant consequences. Most of our immoral actions are based the “distorted sanna” as explained in “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā) ” and other recent posts.
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Until a gandhabba merges with it, a zygote (produced by an egg and a sperm) is “lifeless.”
- However, with the merging of a gandhabba, that zygote becomes alive—as alive as you and me.
- A gandhabba has a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa. That is the essence of a “living being.”
- The mind of the gandhabba is in the “bhavanga” state until the baby’s brain is developed and it can receive sensory inputs. Even inside the womb, it starts receiving sensory inputs gradually as the brain develops.
- Consider someone becoming unconscious for a few minutes. That person is not aware of anything, and no thoughts arise. Can we say that the person is not alive during that time? What determines “life” is the existence of a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa.
Taryal asked: “If a female accidentally becomes pregnant, should she be encouraged to forcefully bear the burden out of fear of the contrary being “immoral”? Additionally, how to view cases like a 12 year old girl being pregnant due to rape, for example? If I was a doctor, I don’t think there’s a chance I’d let her take the risk of giving birth.”
- That is a separate issue. Either way, those are hard and agonizing decisions. That is why life is suffering.
- That child did not get pregnant without a cause. It is a kamma vipaka. How one handles a kamma vipaka is a separate issue.
- Why would one come down with cancer (even if they took care of their health all their lives) or get into a car accident (even though it is not their fault)? There are an uncountable number of examples. Those are possible because we are born with this physical body.
The following are essential to keep in mind. They will help understand the current series of posts in the “Worldview of the Buddha” section.
1. The tendency is to think of samādhi as a “jhānic experience.” But samādhi is a “state of mind.” It can have many forms. A jhāna is one type of samādhi.
2. Samādhi (“sama” +” adhi” where “sama” means “same” and “adhi” means “dominance”) means keeping the mind focused on a single ārammaṇa or a nimitta. When attention is tightly focused on something, the mind gets to “samādhi,” based on that mindset. There can be billions of samādhi: some are neutral, some are good, and others are bad.
- A suicide bomber assembling a bomb is also entirely concentrated on it because if he makes a mistake, that will blow him up. Thus, he also gets into a samādhi, which is an example of evil or immoral samādhi.
- Someone listening to a discourse or meditating is in a good samādhi. They may also be fully absorbed in it.
- One may not hear external disturbances if fully absorbed in an exciting book. That is a neutral samādhi.
- Therefore, there can be billions of types of samādhi with the mind focused on a specific ārammaṇa.
3. There are only four types of Sammā Samādhi in Buddha Dhamma. Each one is associated with a magga phala.
- For example, Sotapanna phala samādhi attained at the Sotapanna phala moment is never lost. With that samādhi present at all times, a Sotapanna is incapable of doing “apāyagāmi kamma.”
- The highest is Arahant phala samādhi. With that samādhi present at all times, an Arahant is incapable of doing any “akusala kamma.”
- However, even though the Sammā Samādhi is never lost, the exact same mental state experienced at a magga phala moment does not stay with the person. Yet, it can be uncovered with practice. That mental state is “pabhassara citta/mind” for the Arahant phala; for all other magga phala, it is called “sappabhāsa citta” (all samyojana are eliminated only with “pabhassara citta/mind”). Those states can be uncovered by practicing Satipaṭṭhāna. Once uncovered, one can get into the corresponding samāpatti, where that state can be maintained for a while.
- Thus, a Sotapanna can practice Satipaṭṭhāna and get into sappabhāsa citta and maintain it for a while; it is also called “Satipaṭṭhāna bhumi,” “paccuppanna sati” or the “environment to cultivate Vipassana.” This is the only way to bypass the “kama saññā,” which is the “distorted saññā” in kama loka. I mentioned that at the end (#13) of the current post, “A Sensory Input Triggers (Distorted) Saññā and Pañcupādānakkhandha“; we will discuss it in upcoming posts.
- That is where a Sotapanna practices the lokuttara version of Satipaṭṭhāna to eliminate kāma rāga and to attain the Anāgāmi stage.
- Some of the above aspects will become clear in upcoming posts. I wanted to show the connections/implications.
Yaṁ buddhaseṭṭho parivaṇṇayī suciṁ – Any of the Buddhas who have achieved the highest purity (teach Dhamma that leads to):
Samādhimānantarikaññamāhu – Samādhim ānantarika añña āhu. It refers to a Samādhi inseparable from the magga phala (añña) attained (ānantarika). For example, the Samādhi attained at the Sotapanna stage (or any other stage) is never lost.
- Samādhi (sama + adhi), meaning leaning to some state. Here, it refers to Nibbana.
Samādhinā tena samo na vijjati – Samādhi nā tena samo na vijjati (such a Samādhi is not found anywhere else).
This sutta briefly summarizes the five ways to get to Sammā Samādhi and higher magga phala (above the Sotapanna stage).
- The first four ways are via the four jhanas.
- The fifth way that you quoted is without going through jhana.
- All five ways require cultivating the lokuttara version of Satipaṭṭhāna. That requires understanding the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages, which we have discussed in recent posts, for example, “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?.”
- This is what we will be discussing in future posts, as I pointed out at the end of today’s post: “A Sensory Input Triggers (Distorted) Saññā and Pañcupādānakkhandha.”
So, you are correct in your last comment.
Let me put a link to the quote in the sutta:
The English translation there is: “The Realized One has developed and cultivated the four bases of psychic power, made them a vehicle and a basis, kept them up, consolidated them, and properly implemented them. If he wished, the Realized One could live for the proper lifespan or what’s left of it.”
What you quoted in your original comment was: ““The Realized One has developed and cultivated the four bases of psychic power, made them a vehicle and a basis, kept them up, consolidated them, and properly implemented them. If he wished, the Realized One could live on for the eon or what’s left of the eon.”
- So, the actual translation does not say eon.
Now the Pali verse is: “Tathāgatassa kho, ānanda, cattāro iddhipādā bhāvitā bahulīkatā yānīkatā vatthukatā anuṭṭhitā paricitā susamāraddhā. Ākaṅkhamāno, ānanda, tathāgato kappaṁ vā tiṭṭheyya kappāvasesaṁ vā”ti.”
- Kappa means a lifetime. It is incorrect to translate kappa as an “eon.”
An eon is a “mahā kappa” not a “kappa.”
- As I pointed out in my comment above, the lifetime of a human (kappa) during the time of the Buddha was similar to today, about 100 years.
- At the time of that conversation with Ven. Ananda, Buddha was about 80 years old. He told Ven. Ananda that he could live for another 20 years or so because he had cultivated “cattāro iddhipāda.”
- Even a Buddha would not be able to live for a mahā kappa, which is several billion years!
- The English translations in both links are fine. They say either “lifespan” or “kappa” indicating a lifetime of about 100 years. You seem to have misinterpreted it as a mahā kappa.
- I would say this is a common mistake many people make.
Please make it a habit to quote a reference properly. That will save a lot of time for others.
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