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It is likely that the movements in the “dog’s face” are just nerve impulses. An analogy is a plant turning to sunlight.
- There cannot be any “thoughts” arising because the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) is not in the head (at least in humans).
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You should read relevant material if you are serious about investigating these issues.
- “.. just throwing thoughts” is a waste of time for everyone.
“I haven’t read Abhidhamma yet..”
1. That is one reason why you don’t understand why teaching Abhidhamma in the days of the Buddha was impossible.
- Also, Abhidhamma was not necessary in those days. Most people could grasp the essence of Buddha’s teachings without learning Abhidhamma. They had fulfilled paramita in previous lives and did not need much help completing that process. Many people only listened to one or two discourses and attained magga phala.
2. Abhidhamma is more suited for the current environment.
- You may want to read the post “Abhidhamma—Introduction” and also take a look at Ref.1 there. It is a free PDF file of a book by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Then, you will understand that learning Abhidhamma takes a while and is almost impossible to learn by only listening.
- Furthermore, it took almost 250 years to finish compiling the Abhidhamma theory, as explained in the post.
- After that, rereading the above comment may help clarify the situation further.
I don’t think there is a post with further description.
- Adhimokkha is mentioned only in a couple of suttas.
Thank you, Lang. I had forgotten about making this translation. I think it was done because of a similar situation in the discussion forum.
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If ten people listened to a discourse by Wahraka Thero (or anyone else), they would understand it in their own way. Thus, the quality of translation depends on the translator.
- Reading my posts is the same. Different people understand at various levels, including not much understanding in some cases.
- Bahiya understood one verse by the Buddha and attained the Arahant stage in a few minutes; none of us have that level of wisdom (it is based on pāramitā or how much one has learned in previous lives). Devadatta spent a lifetime with the Buddha and did not learn anything useful (imagine how many discourses of the Buddha he listened to); he ended up in an apaya. Each person is different.
Yes. That is a good description!
- Also, see the discussion in another thread: Ignorant Mind perceives a “self”
The root cause of all this is the following: All our attachments are due to a “perceived self,” and that sense of a “self,” “me,” or “mine” arises due to the (distorted) saññā of experiencing “a sense of joy” with certain sensory inputs (for a human it is things like the taste of honey, the smell of perfume, beauty of a woman or handsomeness of a man, etc; but that is not common to other living beings, for example animals. Thus, such “a sense of joy” is not real, but it is a bit hard to see how it arises.)!
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Good discussion!
The root cause of all this is the following: All our attachments are due to a “perceived self,” and that sense of a “self,” “me,” or “mine” arises due to the (distorted) saññā of experiencing “a sense of joy” with certain sensory inputs (for a human it is things like the taste of honey, the smell of perfume, beauty of a woman or handsomeness of a man, etc; but that is not common to other living beings, for example animals. Thus, such “a sense of joy” is not real, but it is a bit hard to see how it arises.)!
Yes. What you described is the early stage of the Sotapanna Anugami level. As you mentioned, we can observe changes in ourselves at all stages of this process. Of course, it may take a few months to see some changes, but others can happen in days or minutes if one makes a significant step while contemplating.
- It is a step-by-step process. It is rare for someone to see the deeper level (that we discussed in recent posts) in “one shot.”
- The next step is to see that the “mundane anicca nature” results from an internal mental process.
The rebirth process is critical because the results of that internal mental process have consequences beyond this life. It is impossible to form a complete, self-consistent worldview without the rebirth process playing a role.
- Contemplating how one’s gati leads to rebirth in different realms could be beneficial. This would connect the internal mental process to future lives.
- Different gati are cultivated by repeatedly engaging in the same corresponding type of abhisankhara formation.
- The key is to see the importance of examining one’s inner thoughts, i.e., the internal mental processes.
P.S. The type of saññā that comes with birth in a given realm depends on the gati that led to that birth.
- For example, a pig is born with a “likable saññā” for eating dirty things. That is because, as a human in a previous life, it had developed gati to engage in “dirty deeds.”
- In the same way, people who kill are reborn as vicious animals.
- On the other hand, humans who engage in moral deeds and enjoy doing good deeds are reborn as Devas or Brahmas. Not only the mindset (saññā) but also the environment match those gati.
“Does this mean that the above analysis I just described is mundane and cannot take us to Nibbāna, even if we can reduce and even stop Tanha from arising (Tanha Nirodho) using this analysis (2nd, 3rd Noble Truth)?”
- The mundane meaning of anicca you described in nothing new. Anyone can see that anything in this world cannot be maintained in its prime condition.
- If that is the case, why must we learn Buddha Dhamma?
- No. “tanha nirodha” cannot be achieved by looking at the external world. One must understand how those things in the external world arise to induce tanha in us, AND why our bodies have the intrinsic built-in mechanism to generate tanha.
- Even just learning about the deeper meaning in Buddha’s teachings is not enough. To cultivate the anicca saññā and to get rid of kāma rāga (and attain the Anagami stage), One must cultivate the correct version of Satipatthana based on it.
- However, just learning/comprehending the deeper version (to some extent) can help attain the Sotapanna stage because that requires only getting rid of the sakkaya ditthi (the wrong view that acquiring worldly things can remove suffering).
- Getting rid of kāma saññā is more difficult.
There are two types of “sankhata.”
1. The first type includes everything we see, hear, taste, smell, and touch in the external physical world. It also includes all living beings in the world.
- As we have discussed in recent posts, both living and non-living (inert) things in the world are sankhata because they all have their origins in mind: “Mind-Pleasing Things” in the World Arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- All those are subject to arising (uppada) and decay. Anyone (including puthujjanas) can see that. That is the “mundane anicca nature,” i.e., we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca).
2. The second type of sankhata is dhammā. These are kamma bija that accumulate via the abhisankhara generation.
- These dhammā also belong to the rupa category. However, they lie below the suddhatthaka stage. As we know, all sankhata in the first category above are made of suddhatthaka. See “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!.”
- These dhammā are responsible for the presence of sankhata of the first category in #1 above. The rebirth of a living being is brought by dhammā accumulated by that specific being. On the other hand, the presence of other non-living things is via the collective dhammās generated by all living beings. See “Sensory Inputs Initiate “Creation of the World” or “Loka Samudaya”.”
- The generation of dhammā (that type of sankhata formation) happens in the mind. That is what Buddha Dhamma is focused on.
- The discussion of uppada, ṭhiti, and vaya is focused on dhammā. Here, uppada is the arising of dhammā via abhisankhara formation. Once a dhammā (or a kamma bija) is initiated it remains in vinnana dhatu and can grow with further abhisankhara generation. The critical point is that vaya means the nirodha of those dhammās. Many translate “vaya” as “destruction,” but that is incorrect (the reason they do that is that they focus on sankhata of the first type in #1 above.) Nirodha or vaya means that an entity becomes ineffective. Nirodha also means “nir” + “uda” or “stop arising.” For example, an Arahant does not generate dhammā.
“Should it be ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (subjected to unexpected change) instead? As written in point 7 of Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra?”
- There are two ways to interpret “ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ.” (i) One is the “mundane meaning,” where it refers to the “decay of the sankhata” (for example, anything in the external world decays and is destroyed). (ii) The other meaning is deeper, where it refers to the “dhammā” (or the kamma bija) created by the mind with abhisankhara (which leads to such external entities like a person or a tree). Bullet #7 in the post “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra?” refers to the first.
- In the just revised post “Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering” I tried to explain that to some extent.
- The deeper meaning is explained in the post “Aniccaṁ Vipariṇāmi Aññathābhāvi – A Critical Verse.”
“Also, where can we categorize the suffering from “tāpa” or “heat in mind.” – is it under sankhara dukkha?”
- Yes. It is under sankhara dukkha. The mind gets stressed while generating abhisankhara (with raga, dosa, moha), even if we may not realize it. But we can definitely feel it when getting angry.
“Also, does samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā fall under dukkha dukkha? For example, hearing ourselves getting scolded.”
- No. Samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā is created by the mind. So, it should come under sankhara dukkha.
- Dukkha dukkha is mainly “vipaka” coming to the physical body. However, based on that, we also generate samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā (in the mind).
- So, this categorization is not very clear-cut.
The post in question had several errors. I have rewritten it:
“Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering”
- If the post does not clarify the overall picture, please don’t hesitate to ask or repeat those questions.
- Thank you for pointing out the issues.
The verses in the Maṅgala Sutta can be interpreted in mundane ways and with deeper meanings. The Sutta Central translation you quoted interchangeably uses both types of meanings.
“Bāhusaccañca sippañca, vinayo ca susikkhito; Subhāsitā ca yā vācā, etaṁ maṅgalamuttamaṁ” is translated there as, “Education and a craft, discipline and training, and well-spoken speech: this is the highest blessing.”
- “Sacca” is truth, and “Bāhu sacca” can be interpreted as “figuring out the truth by analyzing Dhamma concepts in various ways.” The more ways one can look at a given concept (from different angles), the better. That is a deeper meaning.
- “Sippa” is translated there as “craft” and in the “Sippa Sutta (Ud 3.9)” as both “craft” and “professions.” Both meanings are correct. However, the deeper meaning in the Maṅgala Sutta can be interpreted as attaining iddhi (supernormal) powers, going through walls with the manomaya kaya, etc., i.e., as “extra capabilities.” Those are not necessary to attain Nibbana but are “added capabilities.”
- At the end of the “Sippa Sutta (Ud 3.9)” (@marker 6.1), the Buddha advises bhikkhus not to engage in other mundane professions/skills.
- So, you were right to question the translation.
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