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Excellent, Lal.
Even ‘warrior’ is by far much better than beggar or mendicant, since the bhikkhu is truly fighting a war,an inner one, and the greatest one of all. But of course for bhikkhus to be referred to as simply ‘warriors’ ………!
/suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato; 25.On Pukkusa the Malla; some way down ,starting with the para: ‘This one time, Pukkusa, I was staying near Ātumā in a threshing-hut.’…..
However, I did not persist long enough reading the rest of the sutta to come across the particular term: ‘Arahant phala samapatti’, if the term is to be found there at all.
Siebe,
Arahants did not sit to figure out things ,They did not speculate, much less lie.
They KNEW ‘it is so’.But can you say the same? Is it so for you? What can you do with something
that is not in your experience? You can repeat what you heard or read, but unless there is understanding, it will get you nowhere. And the time is wasted. These ‘masters’ you mention, they all claim to be enlightened, yet I know of not even a single one who has declared any stage of magga phala, mainly because their teachings are not based on the Tipitaka. That their declaration is of enlightenment not of magga phala is the giveaway here.
I can see what prompted Christian to conclude that only Ariyas should spread the Dhamma.This is why I say you work from standpoints you fully comprehend and accept. At the outset ,for instance, you see whether you hold any wrong view; if so, reading through relevant posts on (miccha)ditthi will help, then on to resolving to live by the Precepts,becoming generous with others..and so on, things you can apply, things that will change your outlook on life and yourself. You can see real benefits. What difference does it make at that point whether a Tathagatha exist, does not exist, both exists and does not exist, neither…? However that may be, it will remain so, whether you comprehend it or not, whether you are here or not.
The emphasis is on what you can do, what you should do and what you MUST do – first to get on the Path and become free from the worst kind of suffering, then to progress on the Path and become free from subtler kinds of suffering through a fuller appreciation of Tilakkhana, the four Noble Truths, PS…you do not have to worry about the Goal, Nibbana, because That is guaranteed. Whatever it is, it must be worth striving for. But you cannot get ahead of yourself. The only step possible is the one immediately ahead.
May you attain final Release – in your own time.
Sybe,
What you are saying is this:
Nibbana exists ,though NOT inherent in us until we ATTAIN It at Arahanthood,(my annotation), It is nicca,sukkha and atta; and the way to attain is by going beyond the 5 pancakkhandhas, beyond even the positive or wholesome in these( putting aside for the moment the assertion that ‘all vinnana is defiled’).
Now, in the absence of any connection to the pancakkhandhas, negative and positive, WHICH MAKE UP THE BEING,who or what experiences Nibbana? This is how ‘your’ being comes to be: though the pancakkhandhas are no more, still Nibbana is experienced; so, by whom is it experienced? For surely, if Nibbana is nicca, sukkha and atta, it must be EXPERIENCED as such, and if experienced, then ‘someone’ must be there to do the experiencing.
I will admit that no answer to this question, by anybody, has been to my complete satisfaction. Yet, I am not bothered by that in the least. Because the Buddha says that a Buddha (or an Arahant) neither exists,nor does not exist, both exists and does not exist, and neither exists nor does not exist. Has anyone ever been able to make anything of that? – except that, ‘it must be some state of which we have no conception of”? Now I have gone for Refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha; I have complete aveccappasada in the Buddha, I observe the Precepts to the best of my ability and order my life according to sila, again, to the best of my ability. That will do perfectly for me. The answer to that question ,then, must be one for which I am not yet ready, or, to put it bluntly, one which I do not deserve an answer to because I have not reached the stage which would enable me to comprehend the answer.
An analogy is this: I here am in the human realm, in kamaloka. To me the ultimate happiness is that which involves connection, ‘the other’, sense pleasures, if not gross, subtle. I cannot conceive how jhanic absorption, meditating alone, alone-ness in a brahma realm could be preferable to a deva realm. Yet a brahma existence is deemed higher than one in the kamaloka. So it must be that I can start to have a vague idea of that only after I am nearly done with the Sakadagami stage. Not before – as the song goes, the only way out is through.It is no use trying to figure out what it is to be an Anagami, an Arahant, a Buddha , just like it is of no use trying to explain all about sex to a four-year-old; 10, 11 years, and he or she will be ready.
This reminds me of when someone asks for help in resolving some problem about ethical conduct or some question necessary to clear up in order to progress, and is told, even if ‘with compassion’, ‘What you are doing is nowhere near Nibbana. Leave all that. Strive for Nibbana.’ It is like a maths professor telling a first-grader: ‘Look. Your difficulties with multiplication and division are not the real deal. The integral calculus, theoretical physics are the real deal. Set your mind on those.’ To which the student rightly replies: ‘Yes Sir. But to get to those, I must have basic arithmetic mastered first’. Now if the professor is unwilling to stoop to the level of an ordinary maths teacher, for the sake of that student, he’d better leave the student to an ordinary maths teacher – out of compassion, it is understood.
Sleep paralysis as I had experienced it back in my 20’s is something like this:
I was lying down on my bed in that 50-50 state between wakefulness and sleep. Then I heard a buzzing noise coming from inside, increasing in intensity until it took over completely.I just lay there ‘frozen’. That is: I knew my brain was awake, active, but my body would take no commands to move an arm or a leg, nor to open my eyes.
Then the frightening thought: ‘what if I remain like this? No one will be able to shake me out of it.’ After that, every time I heard the first signs of the buzzing, I used to sit up,force my eyes open and hold on rigidly to the bed in order to drive it away.
A truly terrifying experience. I sincerely hope no one comes to experience it.
There are however instances in the suttas where a heinous act led directly
to hell, and at once, not even waiting for the life to come to its natural
end, i.e.it happened right after the deed was committed.Such a one is JA 72 Silavanaga jataka, where Devadatta in a former existence
was an ingrate with the Boddhisatta elephant, sawing off all his ivory.
Another is where someone slanders Vens Mahamogallana and Sariputta. The Buddha
thrice tells him ‘do not say so, do not say so’. He is swallowed up into Avichi
right afterwards. I have come across others, but I cannot remember which suttas
they were.Metta to all
1 user thanked author for this post.
Very few indeed will be going to hell as a result of anantariya papa kamma
done in the current life. But of course, others from previous bhavas may
surface at the cutipatisandhi moment – and here lies the danger.The Buddha is not around, of Arahants there cannot be many, if any, so it is
practically the isolated cases of the killing of mother or father that lead
there, and causing dissention (even if by the written word)that may lead to a
schism in the Sangha,and acknowledging another teacher besides the Buddha,
if that is included.Those who have gone for Refuge (saranam) in the Buddha (Dhamma and Sangha)
alone,accepting ‘the principles proclaimed by the Realized One after considering
them with a degree of wisdom’ and those who ‘have a degree of faith and love
for the Buddha’ do not go to any of the apayas, even before attaining any stage
of magga phala (SN 55.24)Metta to all
Johnny,
-I can only pity them inside my heart, thinking “I could have helped you.” –
Dhamma is not only the greatest gift, it is also the one most difficult to give. You will learn that in nearly all cases it will be wasted effort. You can tell by the look in their eyes when people are not interested. How can they be? A two-year-old’s eyes will light up on seeing a colourful toy not the cover of a book. They are just not ready for it.
Send out ‘feelers’ whenever the urge to talk about Dhamma arises in you, or when a conversation is taking place where It would fit in as a follow-up. Since coming across Dhamma myself,in 20 months I have made reference to It with only a handful of people, seven or so at most, and only once did I get the feeling that the other was listening -but this one, a teenager, happened to be already into Zen, so there was a basis for at least making reference to the Buddha’s original Teaching and to instil the urge in him to look into That for comparison, all the while taking great care not to force anything on him, judging, condemning, in the way of ‘this is the true Buddhism, that is the wrong one’. He will come to that realization himself, and even then, if and when he is ready for it.
You may pity them, but even that is wasted. Just radiate Metta to them as well, as you do with all other beings. Do not exclude them. Still, in real terms they are receiving nothing. The value and benefits of Metta are to yourself alone. So there can be no end to this pity. The practical thing to do is to share merits with everyone without exception.
Hello Akvan,
The question has been raised before. If such a one goes to the apayas anytime in the future, but not immediately after death, then it could not be said: ‘he does not go to the apayas’.
(However… in the case of the 4 classes of Ariyas, the word ‘parimutto’- exempt, released, delivered -is given, while in the last two cases, those who have gone for Refuge, the word is ‘aganta’ -does not go. Now my understanding of Pali is limited to key words and their derivatives and may be faulty or lacking, so I leave any bearing that the different meaning of the words may have to others.)
As I read, the Sutta is saying that although he is not a Sotapanna, therefore not an Ariya, and not even a Sotapanna anugami (for these too have aveccappasada in the Buddha), he who has just started out on the Path, through either intellectual investigation into the Dhamma or through an intuitive trust in the Buddha – he has gone for Refuge, that is, having seen that life is full of suffering, physical, mental and emotional, having for a long time not come up with a solution, with a way out of this suffering, now he sees a way out. The all-important first step has been taken, progress is now possible. The question here arises: but will he continue on the Path or will he fall away? If he is to progress, he has to be free of the apayas. And if the Sutta says that he is free of the apayas, then he will progress.
So, Akvan, I see this as the preliminary stage to the Path.
Metta
(My last post took a full 2 days to show on the Forum. I have found that clicking on my name and on ‘replies created’ will show it. So this tack may be used by anyone expecting a reply from a participant.)
To conclude,
I know many fear the apayas, and this is because they cannot tell for certain whether they have reached the Sotapanna Stage. Still, they need not fear. Lest one should think that what I said above is only my understanding, here is support from the suttas:
SN 55.24:
After the cases of Arahants, Anagamis and Sakadagamis are presented, there follows:
Take another person who has experiential confidence in the Buddha … With the ending of three fetters they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.This person, too, is exempt from hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They’re exempt from places of loss, bad places, the underworld.Y E T , even those who do NOT have aveccappasada, i.e are NOT Sotapannas, but, “they have these qualities:the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom” together with either:
“And they accept the principles proclaimed by the Realized One after considering them with a degree of wisdom”, or
“And they have a degree of faith and love for the Buddha”:THIS PERSON TOO DOESN’T GO TO HELL, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They don’t go to places of loss, bad places, the underworld.
The sutta itself starts off with the Buddha stating : “when a lay follower has for a long time gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, how could they go to the underworld?” At the time Sarakani was not a Sotapanna; he ‘undertook the training'(became a Sotapanna) only just before dying.(SN 55.25) ‘saranam’ alone (taking Refuge) suffices to be exempt from the apayas.
This is just to dispel the fear of the apayas from the minds of many. Just strive on, whatever stage you are at.
Metta to all
Akmal,
The mind of one who has become a Sotapanna has been ‘taken over’ by the qualities of a Sotapanna. He will not grasp any of those bad kamma at the dying moment, because his mindset is permanently focused on all that is good – sila, dana, the 5 precepts, ever-increasing comprehension and verification in life of Tilakkhana, and, most importantly, Refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and aveccappasada until the very end.
There will be no room for those bad kamma beeja, the conditions in his mind for them to take hold will not be there.
Christian,
Thank you.
Yes, the posts are taking time to show up on the Forum.
I do not see what ‘reasoning’ you are talking about.(‘Simple reasoning will not work you will actually get opposite’).There is no reasoning involved. Those devas had attained aveccappasada and developed Sila . Likewise those humans who are doing the same. Hence the connection.
The Buddha Himself recommended: ‘You should recollect the devas’. My sole concern was to offer Tien encouragement from my own experience. I too had for long been victim to the shortcomings or failings that he mentions, and this proved to be the way out. It is just a device. Maybe it works for him as well. Again,so: “…. these four footprints of the gods are in order TO PURIFY UNPURIFIED BEINGS AND CLEANSE UNCLEAN BEINGS.”
I hope you get my meaning now.
May you attain Anagami phalla soon, Christain.
Metta
Tien,
You say: “…when I laying down, Kama power seems to have multiply by 1000 and my Sati power decrease 1000 times”.
Recollect the devas. They are watching. Your unwholesome activities, whatever they be, even your unwholesome thoughts they can watch. Not as wardens – to observe, admonish and punish, but to ‘watch over’ rather, like tutors their pupils.
SN 55.34:
“…. these four footprints of the gods are in order to purify unpurified beings and cleanse unclean beings.
(experiential confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha plus ethical conduct loved by the Noble Ones).”And these devas ARE such Noble Ones.
SN 55.35/6 are on the same theme. SN 55.36 has:
“…when someone has four things the gods are pleased and speak of what they have in common”…
“There are deities with experiential confidence in the Buddha who passed away from here and were reborn there. They think: ‘Having such experiential confidence in the Buddha, we passed away from there and were reborn here.’ That noble disciple has the same kind of experiential confidence in the Buddha, so they will come into the presence of the gods.
“They think:‘Having such ethical conduct loved by the noble ones, we passed away from there and were reborn here. That noble disciple has the same kind of ethical conduct loved by the noble ones, so they will come into the presence of the gods.’ When someone has four things the gods are pleased and speak of what they have in common.”That makes for encouragement alright. And remember, these devas are Ariyas, so ‘to go into their presence’ is only a station (for Sakadagamis) or 6 more at most(for Satopannas) short of Nibbana. It is not for the purpose of enjoying a deva bhava in itself and for itself.
much Metta
