[upekkha100]

Sotapanna Anugami are one of the 8 Ariyas and part of the 4 pairs of Ariyas. I was under the impression that all Ariyas would have avecca pasada.

[upekkha100]

Student wrote:
“Can anybody share any document which proves that Mahāyāna is a later branch?”

To your question regarding Mahāyāna. In my opinion, I think the proof of it being a later branch is self-evident. One just needs to read the sutras. One red flag after another. Full of one contradiction and inconsistency after another. I think one could possibly write a book listing the contradictions/inconsistencies.

The sutras from Mahāyāna are in Sanskrit. The suttas from the Tipitaka are in Pali. The fact that the “sutras(not suttas)” are in Sanskrit and not in Pali alone, is a red flag. The Buddha did not give his discourses in Sanskrit. It was in Maghadhi. As Lal wrote in one of the posts: “Pāli is a version of Maghadhi suitable for writing down oral discourses in summary form suitable for transmission.”

From Preservation of the Buddha Dhamma :
“That is when the Buddha admonished them that Sanskrit was a language with musical overtones developed by the high-minded Brahmins and thus it was not possible to convey the true meanings of Maghadhi (Pali) words in Sanskrit; see, Chulavagga 5.33.”

From Chulavagga 5.33 :

“You are not, O Bhikkhus, to put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse. Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata. I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to learn the word of the Buddhas each in his own dialect.'”

To get more clarity on Mahāyāna, I think you will find the following post in particular, to be beneficial. If you have not read it already, I highly recommend it:

The Saddharma Pundarika Sutra (Lotus Sutra) – A Focused Analysis

Here’s one of the best highlights from that post, major clear as day/obvious contradiction/inconsistency:
“This sutrā starts off by the Buddha saying that even though he had taught that there were three paths to nibbāna but now he is admitting that there is only one; when Ven. Ananda asked why, he says that he did not think people were “ready” for this higher doctrine. Thus instead of there being three vehicles (or paths) one can take, there is only one which is the great vehicle or the Mahāyāna (“mahā” is great and “yāna” is vehicle). And this is the path that he himself took by striving for aeons as a Bodhisattva to become a Buddha.

Continuing with this sutrā, now he (the Buddha) was advising everyone to become a Bodhisattava and to attain the Buddhahood. Then he assures all those Arahants present there, including Ven. Sariputta, that they themselves will become Buddhas. This is a complete lack of understanding of the concept of an Arahant (even though the sutta itself says that those Arahants had removed all defilements). An Arahant is not going to be reborn and thus there is no way for an Arahant to become a Buddha.”

[upekkha100]

Hi Student.

You wrote:
“This is an issue of mystery and dissatisfaction.”

I have such similar questions myself, so I understand your curiosity.

Student wrote:
“why not the start.”

Here is a sutta that might be of use to those on the Path, whenever these questions arise:

MN63 Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta

“Malunkyaputta, if anyone were to say, ‘I won’t live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me that “The cosmos is eternal,”… or that “After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,”‘ the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

“It’s just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.’ He would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me… until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short… until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored… until I know his home village, town, or city… until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow… until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark… until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated… until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird… until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.’ He would say, ‘I won’t have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.’ The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.”

Existing in sansara is like being shot with that poisoned arrow. The antidote is Nibbana.

In my opinion, if the Buddha never explicitly spoke about such topics, I think it is of not much benefit to ponder at long lengths about them. Because the only being I’d trust to get the full/correct answers to these questions is from the Buddha himself, the best source. So if he answered any of these questions, it would most likely be in the Tipitaka, that is our second best source now without the Buddha. Otherwise we can only speculate/guess/theorize, and never find the true definitive/satisfying answer.

[upekkha100]

Thank you so much for the encouragement and additional instructions Lal, really appreciate it!

Lal wrote:
“Regarding the #1 above, I would also suggest looking into whether any of the 10 types of miccha ditthi are left Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna Stage .”

In 2016 before I got into Buddha Dhamma, I had 6 of the miccha ditthi, while only lacking 4 of the miccha ditthi. After I got into Buddha Dhamma that same year, the remaining 6 were eliminated as well. So at the very least, I do believe I am on the mundane Path.

[upekkha100]

Hi Akvan. Thank you for providing the desana links. I will be sure to check them out.

[upekkha100]

firewns wrote:
“In my opinion, as your second goal, it should be having the chance to hear the pure Dhamma from Buddha Metteyya and to attain magga phala there and then, or even in the intervening years before He arrives in the human realm, which seems to be better than to be reborn as a Brahma being.”

We think alike. That is another reason why I want to be reborn a brahma. If you see this topic from last month, this was my reply:

Sammaparibbajaniya Sutta forum topic

“2) If can’t attain stages of Nibbana, then attain jhana so that one can increase the chance of a brahma bhava and maybe become Ariya as a brahma. Billions years of bliss and safety from apayas. Since brahmas have long lifespan, this increases the chance of possibly meeting the future Buddha as well(yes this is my wish haha), and become an Ariya after listening to a desana by him. ”

firewns wrote:
“The power of making determinations when performing kusala and/or punna kamma can be tremendous.”

Yes, could not agree more! Our repeated abhisankhara create an energy, that if done enough and with strong/potent enough intention, it creates momentum and propels a sentient being towards that direction(goal/wish/desire). Sometimes to the point that it is fated or becomes fate rather than have a weak chance/probablity of coming to fruition(in the case of Bodisatta and Chief disciples). That is why I have a daily routine, and list of wishes/determinations when doing kusala/punna/metta bhavana, to create and build up this energy so that it would propel me towards the Sotapanna stage at the very least.

[upekkha100]

Compared to the other sense pleasures, I can quite easily quit body pleasures and nose pleasures, cold turkey if need be. And now, I think I can do this for food as well, without missing it so much. But I can’t say the same for beautiful sights. And especially not for music. As you can see from the the second category, music is one of my strongest weaknesses. I do not think I will ever be able to quit it cold turkey. For this one, I feel I will let it run its course of reduction naturally. Yet still set limits of course so as not to cross the threshold of third precept boundaries.

If I do listen, the 3 compromises/limitations/restrictions I make is:
1) I set maximum limit of 6 songs in one day. Could be less than 6. But nothing more than 6.
2) that I won’t hum it throughout the rest of the day
3) That I try to stop the assada/vaci sankhara about it.

But the thing is I am a bit worried listening to 6 songs maybe too much. So that is why I’d like to hear opinions from others. I’d appreciate all of your input. Does not matter if your opinions are not the same, not everybody will feel nor agree on everything. But I’m still interested in your advise. I’ll take all of it into account, to take the best course of action.

So for someone in my situation/with my cravings, what time-limit do you think I should set for music listening(5, 10, 20 minutes)?

[upekkha100]

My strategy:
Since there are 5 sense inputs, I personally will not tackle all of them at once. I feel this would end up failing. But instead target the easiest/least tempting ones first. Then eventually go for the hardest/most tempting ones.

Rate the 5 sense input pleasures in two categories:
1) Tempting level from strongest to weakest:
-Ear for pleasing sounds/body for pleasing touches tied
-Eyes for pleasing sights
-Tongue for pleasing tastes
-Nose for pleasing scents

2) From easiest to hardest to relinquish/quit/reduce/abstain from:
-Nose for pleasing scents
-Body for pleasing touches
-Tongue for pleasing tastes
-Eyes for pleasing sights
-Ear for pleasing sounds

Now if one were to ask me just a few years ago about food, I would have said that it would have been one of the very last pleasures I could reduce the craving for. I was the biggest foodie my whole life, my childhood motto was “food is my pleasure.” That inner foodie is still there lurking inside of course. But in these past few months, especially recently, I noticed my cravings for it are not the same as before. Not as potent/strong as before. I feel a strong apparent decrease in my craving for food. I am content with bland food, just for sake of eating/sustenance and staying alive. I went from “live to eat” to “eat to live.” I personally think this is significant for someone who has been a foodie since childhood. I shared this to show that even laypeople, even anariya people who are not yogis, or have jhanic ability can also reduce cravings for something that is very tempting for them.

[upekkha100]

I know for the Path, if one’s kama raga is under control and tame, it is not necessary to force nor use will power for kama raga suppression, and that if one keeps following the Path it will naturally/automatically/gradually/eventually reduce in power. If one feels their kama raga is increasing and thus worsening towards kamachanda/lobha level, this is when force and will power are needed.

Having said that, I’m sure there is another camp whose kama raga is under control/tame but still wants to reduce it even further. Using force/will power is us using our viriya cetasika. Viriya is the energy/effort we put into activities including the Path. Viriya is also part of Satara Iddhipada. For the Path, it is Samma Vayama.

So the following is for those in that third camp who want to put Samma Vayama into practise in regards to reducing kama raga through will power(viriya).

Now obviously suppressing kama raga is no easy task. I feel it is the strongest asava of majority of sentient beings. One of the biggest obstacles in sansara. Greatest and strongest of temptations. It is our strongest hardwired habits.

Removing hardwired habits cannot be done all at once, just as an alcoholic would not cut off all alcohol cold turkey. That would cause withdrawal symptoms, and the person’s urges/cravings would only get stronger, and they would regress back to drinking alcohol. To make the transition a lasting habit, one should rather reduce the alcohol intake gradually, tapering off slowly/gradually so that they eventually stop drinking for good. So it becomes a new good hardwired habit that replaced the old bad hardwired habit.

So I feel the same technique could apply to reducing the cravings for the 5 sense inputs.

Everyone’s cravings and preferences for the 5 sense input pleasures are different. Not everyone will rate the pleasures the same way. Thus there really can’t be a one-size fits all strategy for all. But rather I feel it would be better if one could make a customised/tailor-made strategy for ourselves, each individual, that is suited to our personal preference/tastes due to each of our own unique gati/character/personality/cravings/desires.

[upekkha100]

Y not, thank you for compiling the info on issa.

Your posts got me thinking that I may have been incorrectly using these two words: envy/jealousy all this time. I have interchangeably used them most of my life, thinking they’re synonyms, not knowing there is a difference.

So it seems a bit clearer that Sotapanna would not have envy.

Questions:
1) Sotapanna has no envy, but what about jealousy? Would a Sotapanna have that?

2) Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana? If from envy, then a Sotapanna would have eliminated the tendency of competitiveness as well right? But if competitiveness stems from asmi mana, then that would mean competitiveness would be eliminated only at the Arahant stage.

[upekkha100]

Akvan wrote:
“So you can listen to their deshanas on youtube or on their sites. I can share some links of such deshanas/theros in English and Sinhala if you are interested. ”

Yes, please share a list of English desanas that you think would be helpful. That would be great! Thanks Akvan!

firewns:
Thank you for sharing those two suttas. You are a miracle. Just what I needed see.

Those suttas are referring to the saddha of anariyas right? Not the aveccappasāda(unwavering saddha) of Ariyas. One can have strong saddha in one life and lose it in future lives if one is anariya. But if one ends their bhava with genuine saddha, even if they are anariya, this increases the chance to be reborn in fortunate realms?

[upekkha100]

Tien thank you for that detailed info!

When I get the time later(today or tomorrow), I’d like to share my personal strategy/plan to reduce kama raga that is customized/suited for me. I’d like your input and advise. I value your posts. And of course welcome the thoughts/opinions of others who are trying to do this as well.

[upekkha100]

Hi firewns. Thank you for that. Clearly my tapa was high when I came to this topic, your posts had a calming effect on me, your metta level must be high, it tranquilized me haha. Appreciate that friend.

The following is going to be long, and I apologize for the length. I don’t have others I can share this with, and the PureDhamma community feels like family, so I feel I should explain my reason for wanting to attain jhana, because I keep seeing the reply of “one does not need jhana in order to attain magga phala”. I’m aware of this. I am not trying to cultivate jhana for this purpose. There is one significant primary reason I want this, and also a lesser secondary reason.

Before I explain those 2 motivations, I think I should make clear my number one goal is to attain the Sotapanna stage in this very life. It has been since I officially entered the world of Buddha Dhamma in 2016. So it has been about 3 years of me following/practising the Path and learning/trying to understand the Dhamma.

But in order to attain the Sotapanna stage, simply following the Path and learning/reading Dhamma is not enough. One NEEDS to LISTEN to a desana by an Ariya. I feel like this point should be emphasized more on this site, because for the longest time I was under the incorrect impression that one could become a Sotapanna just by READING the material. And I think many others here are or were under the same incorrect impression. I don’t think one can even become a Sotapanna Anugami just via reading(unless I am mistaken, I don’t think the Tipitaka even mentions how one would become a Sotapanna Anugami. Tipitaka was orally transmitted back then so I doubt the Tipitaka would have said that one can become Sotapanna Anugami via reading.)

I wish reading allowed this feat, but that is not the case. I’ve noticed things and rules are precise in Buddha Dhamma. It is not random nor arbitrary nor some meaningless zen gibberish to impress/confuse people with a profound saying. The Buddha would not have said that listening to a desana is a requirement for Sotapanna stage if it was arbitrary. It is not, there is a significant reason why it is a requirement. As Buddha Dhamma teaches, nothing can come out of nothing. Every effect/result has a cause. In order for a result/effect to come, one needs BOTH the cause and the conditions. Like in order to get a fruit one would need an fruit seed AND the right conditions(fertile soil via nutrients/water/sun) for the fruit(result/effect) to bear. The 4 stages of enlightenment are magga phala. Phala means fruit(result/effect). Sotapanna stage is the fruit/result of something. It cannot come to be randomly, arbitrarily. Without causes and conditions. This too needs the causes/conditions or seeds/nutrients and fertile soil. So if Sotapanna stage is the fruit, what are the seeds and conditions?

From contemplating the info here and few suttas, listening to the desana by the Ariya is the seed. The Ariya energy from their desana being implanted/seeded in our minds. Our minds are the soil. Striving/sila/kusala/Anapana/Satipatthana/following the Path are the conditions(nutrients/sun/water) for that seed so that it can be in the fertile ground most conducive to eventually grow/result into a fruit(magga phala, or Sotapanna stage). Now it is no longer just a seed, but the fruit. Sotapanna stage is like the young underripe fruit. This underripe fruit would keep growing, eventually this fruit completes matures and becomes ripe at the Arahant stage.

The main reason I’m interested in attaining jhana is because it is a backup plan. What if this is my last jati of my human bhava. I have no idea where my next destination will be. It could be the apayas. There is no guarantee I will become Sotapanna in this very life. In case I don’t, I will have nothing to guarantee my safety from an unfortunate realm. Besides attaining magga phala, no activity exists for securing/guaranteeing the human/deva realm, besides deva realm just seems like a scary trap. Fortunately, an activity to secure or at least increase chance for brahma realm exists: and that is jhana or cultivating high metta, if one could sustain this through the entire bhava. If I attain jhana, I will have a higher chance of being reborn a brahma. Being reborn in a fortunate realm. I will have a safety net, something to fall back on, in case I don’t become a Sotapanna in this life. And there is a high chance/probability I won’t.

The reason for why I think I will most likely not become a Sotapanna in this life being: the scarcity of Ariyas in this day and age.

Now if I were in the Indian subcontinent during the time of the Buddha, I would have obviously had the possibility of a higher chance of the blessing/luxury/privilege of being able to hear a desana by the Buddha himself or other Ariyas. Thanks to the Buddha’s appearance, Ariyas and Arahants were abundant during that time. But that is not the case today. The Buddha is not here today. And I believe that compared to those times, there is a scarcity of Ariyas in these present days. It is not as if I have access to an Ariya. Thus do not have easy access to listening to a desana by an Ariya that is needed to become a Sotapanna either. Even if I do, I would not even be able to be 100% sure whether they are Ariya or not.

In addition, I do not think recordings of desanas fulfill that requirement to become a Sotapanna. I have great doubt they would work or count. I do not think recording would have enough of a strong javana power that is equal to the javana power that would be radiated from a desana heard in person. I do not think recordings would implant the seed in my mind successfully.

If recordings could do such a feat, it would have been fortunate for us if the devas(who have powers we don’t, and most likely advanced technology we don’t) could have given the gift of a recording device and recorded a desana by the Buddha. Then the future generation would have a desana to listen to by the Buddha himself, and we would have this recording to use as the seed in our minds to attain the Sotapanna stage.

Attaining the Sotapanna stage is not an insignificant goal. I do not take it lightly. Thus I do not want to risk it nor take a chance by just relying on recordings. In case they do not work nor provide the necessary requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage, I want to be safe and listen to a desana in person. To accomplish this, I have already requested the organizers of Venerable Wallasmuelle’s desana tour to visit the USA and my state so that I’d be able to listen to a desana in person. Thankfully I was told they are planning on doing the desana tour in USA.

^ So I believe I have taken the initial necessary steps to increase my chances of attaining the Sotapanna stage for anyone who misunderstood me and may have thought this is my secondary goal, and jhana is my first goal. That is not the case. It is the reverse.

In short:
#1 main goal: Sotapanna stage in this very life.
#2 secondary goal: attaining jhana to increase the chances of being reborn in a fortunate realm-the brahma realm, as a backup plan/safety net in case I do not become a Sotapanna in this life/bhava.

[upekkha100]

Akvan wrote:
“So in my opinion it would be of more benefit to strive to attain maggha pala rather than jhana.”

I agree. But why can’t one do both? Strive for magga phala and cultivate jhana? Brahma realm is one of the best states to be in to attain magga phala, because their minds are very pure(low in greed, hatred, delusion).

I personally think marriage and having children are one the biggest obstacles/hindrances and risks to the Path, as was clearly implied if not said directly in the Tipitaka numerous times. But I don’t go around preaching or discouraging others to not get married or to not have children. As long as it is not immoral/unwholesome/unhealthy/harmful/dangerous to anyone, it is their life, their choice(I consider marriage/children as huge potential obstacles but not unwholesome). Who am I to control other people? There are people who can remain married, have children, indulge in sensual pleasures yet still follow the Path successfully, and even attain magga phala, and I salute these people. Whether it be anariya laypeople, Sotapannas or Sakadagamis. This shows that many things in sansara can be potential obstacles/risks/hindrances to the Path, it is how one uses it. One can have a knife: one can use it to hurt others or rescue someone tied up with a rope.

So out of all the possible hindrances/obstacles that exist in Sansara, it is puzzling to me that people would try to discourage some of the most wholesome activities(like jhana), activities the Buddha even encouraged.

When people are excessively controlling of other peoples lives/behavior/activity, this makes me think they have a severe case of atta sanna. Adamant about controlling what others do or how others behave. We have to accept we can’t mold and control what choices others make nor how they behave. Advise with good intention is fine, but then this too could risk becoming unwholesome.

It seems to displease Christian, y not and perhaps Akvan, when people are trying to cultivate something like brahma level metta or jhana? If that is something you are not doing nor is it your goal that is fine, but please just because you are not aiming for this, try not to discourage others from something the Buddha clearly was not against. Otherwise it seems like a case of “do as I do, believe as I do, accept as I do, and behave as I do”—>control issues/atta sanna issues. The Buddha never coerced nor forced.

The Buddha clearly encouraged people to cultivate metta that like of a brahma and did not speak ill of cultivating jhanas.

It is becoming apparent that the brahma level metta and kama raga cannot coexist.

So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?

[upekkha100]

Y not brings up a good point. There is a distinction between jealousy and envy.

So which is issa? Both jealousy and envy?

Anyone know of any specific descriptions of issa in the Tipitaka?

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