Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Thank you very much for the revision and the additional explanation, for me that makes things more clear now. Thank you once again.
Would like to confirm if Arahants have distorted sanna? The reason why I’m asking is because one post mentions Arahants have distorted sanna while another say’s Arahants don’t.Kāma Dhātu (With “Distorted Saññā”) Tied to One’s Uppatti Bhavaṅga9. The “kāma dhātu” automatically generates a “distorted saññā” based on one’s uppatti bhavaṅga. Therefore, an Arahant or a puthujjana (average human) will have that initial “distorted saññā.”
Remember that a “made-up” saññā arises even in an Arahant if that Arahant was born in the human realm.<br />Why Would an Arahant Have “Distorted Saññā“?11. That is a consequence of still living with a “vipāka physical body” that the Arahant was born with. Until the death of that physical body, the Arahant must live among other humans.
- That physical body arose due to a kamma vipāka. It will receive not only the “distorted saññā” corresponding to the human realm but also any kamma vipāka that the physical body was destined to receive. While some minor vipāka may be avoided, any strong vipāka can manifest in the physical body. Thus, living Arahants have to endure injuries, sicknesses, etc.
From the most recent post:10. Therefore, taṇhā arises due to “mind-made vedanā.” They arose INSIDE the mind itself and did not come from outside. If external things can cause suffering, we will have to destroy external things to eliminate suffering. However, the Buddha showed that the root causes of suffering are within one’s mind and can be eliminated.- There is no inherent suffering or happiness in ANYTHING external; the sensory contact with an external thing CAUSES pain or happiness depending on our gati and āsāvās.
- An Arahant, who has removed all āsāvās/anusaya/saṁyojana/gati by comprehending the true nature (“yathābhūta ñāna”), is free of “distorted saññā” and therefore of any attachments.
Theruwan Saranai everyone,Initially this post was meant to post segments from Jethavanarama sermons in addition to what Jorg has already shared here, but I agree with what Jorg said “it’s better to watch sermons in their entirety for the best possible context.” Even though I already have some sermons segmented, I decided to drop the idea.– “I just found his explanation of Anicca a bit odd”Initially I felt the same way too. Currently I don’t believe to have understood / comprehended everything about the teachings / explanations or have watched all the sermons, but will continue to learn and put into practice the teachings / explanations. Doing my best to keep an open mind about the teaching of anicca and other teachings from Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery has benefitted me. Broadened my knowledge of the Tilakkhana and given me some things for consideration, contemplation and to put into practice. So far overall from what I have discerned for myself is that I can’t see why the teachings couldn’t be the Buddha dhamma or how it wouldn’t benefit others.For myself, I find the timing to be more than coincidental with Venerable Lal recent writings on distorted sanna and from what I believe to have understood / comprehended from Jethavanarama recent teachings is also related to distorted sanna. I look forward to continue with the learning and putting into practice the teachings disseminated by the two Venerable Sirs and others.2 users thanked author for this post.
Greetings Bahula,
I was able to meet and chat with Jorg about over a week ago. He definitely would like his article to reach as many people as possible and I’m sure he would have no problems / issues with you translating the article. But he did mention that he hasn’t published his article online or to the public yet because there was something that he would like to do first with the article before doing so, which I can’t exactly remember what the thing was.
Like Lal mentioned, I also don’t think he will have any objections with you or anyone translating the article, in fact he’ll probably be very happy to hear what you mentioned. But I would recommend you not to post your translation of the article online or to the public yet until you talk further with Jorg. In the meantime you can start working on the translation and I’m sure there would be no issues with you posting your translated work online or to the public at a later time.
I also posted in the Whatsapp group (with Jorg in it) about your message, I’m sure he’ll get back to you when he notices or see’s your message and when he has the opportunity to reply.
1 user thanked author for this post.
– “The deeply embedded perception of a “me” is associated with sanna vipallasa. Removal of sakkaya ditthi does not affect that much the removal of the perception of a “me.”
From reading the paragraph, it seems like it would still be of benefit for a Sotapanna to mediate on netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ of the five aggregates and on the other dhatu’s like in the Mahārāhulovādasutta.
– “Thus, the correct translation of “‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ ti” is “mine, of myself, or can be beneficial for me?”
That’s very interesting . . . In the past year or so I have been working on coming up with an interpretation that works best for my own understanding of that famous verse.
Can’t say this would be the right translation or interpretation of that famous verse, but it seems like it works best for my practice and understanding at this current time. What I have come up with so far is:
Etaṃ mama (had as mine), esohamasmi ( I am any of the 5 aggregates or the 20 kinds / types of sakkaya ditthi), eso me atta’ ti (is of value or importance to me).
None of the 5 aggregates or dhatus “can be had as mine”, that my essence is any of the 5 aggregates and the 5 aggregates is of importance or value to me.
Tentatively planning to arrive in Sri Lanka on September 18th. Will visit some sites, then stay in the area of JBM monastery around September 26th and will leave on Oct. 2 back to Colombo and next day fly out.
Was hoping to travel to Sri Lanka around the end of September, but mundane affairs factored into the reasons for date of travel.
Based on the dates, I’ll be able to meet up with Jorg, but not sure about LDF.
Since I’ll be arriving earlier and planning to visit some sites like the Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi and surrounding area. If Jorg or LDF have any questions like transportation around Sri Lanka or other questions, feel free to ask. I can be contacted by Whatsapp while on the trip (whenever I can use wi-fi).
KāmasaññāInitially seeing here the topic of kāmasaññā being discussed on the forums. Due to not having knowledge of or have put in the time or effort to gain knowledge about topic; wasn’t planning on putting too much time or focus on the topic until at a later time. In the end felt there were some uncertainty in the answers to the questions regarding kāmasaññā. Thought of siding tracking and taking a quick look into kāmasaññā, not knowing what to expect from just “taking a quick look” turned out to be beyond expectations. It’s my belief what transpired could potentially be of benefit to others that are interested in the topic. I can’t say I know or understand everything about kāmasaññā, but just hope to share what I have come across for other’s discernment and feedback.It was mentioned:- “Actually, I am still not on board with Arahant even having “kama sanna.” If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it.”
- This is a tricky issue because we don’t have any Arahants to verify this for us.”
From what I have come to learn, it’s my belief that kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in an Arahant. If that’s the case, then how does Arahant’s taste? Would that be the tricky issue involved?I hope sufficient materials and evidence will be provided by the end of this post, hoping the information can be of use and help for others knowledge and on the path.I would like to mention that I haven’t put in the effort or focus into learning Pali besides some important Pali Buddha dhamma words. I can’t say I have the qualifications based on academic standards interpreting sutta’s or even being able to currently understand Pali or the sutta’s without English translations and interpretations.What’s shared is just based on what I can piece together and understand on my own. I’m aware sometimes I might not have thought of or see where there might be errors or inconsistencies in what I believe in. I hope what is shared can be scrutinize and reviewed by others for feedback.At a later time it’s mentioned:- In a comment above, I stated: “Actually, I am still not on board with Arahant even having “kama sanna.” If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it. “
- Even an Arahant would have the “kama sanna,” i.e., experience the sweetness of sugar, bitterness of lemon, etc.
From Saññāsutta, in the parallel, “Antidotes for harmful perceptions”.“Mendicants, there are these three things.“Tayome, bhikkhave, dhammā.”<br />
“Sensual, malicious, and cruel perceptions. Kāmasaññā, byāpādasaññā, vihiṁsāsaññā.”<br />
From what I can discern and see is kāmasaññā being mentioned along with the other unwholesome states of mind. So far, this leads me to believe that kāmasaññā isn’t just simply related to the possibility of tasting sweetness or other taste, but the main relationship is with defilements or akusala.In the same sutta, it gives me the idea of kāmasaññā is something that should be given up or renounced.“You should develop perceptions of renunciation to give up sensual perceptions, perceptions of good will to give up malicious perceptions, and perceptions of harmlessness to give up cruel perceptions.”“Kāmasaññāya pahānāya nekkhammasaññā bhāvetabbā, byāpādasaññāya pahānāya abyāpādasaññā bhāvetabbā, vihiṁsāsaññāya pahānāya avihiṁsāsaññā bhāvetabbā.”From Anupubbanirodhasutta:“For someone who has attained the first absorption, sensual perceptions have ceased.”“Paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti;”Just when I was about to complete and post this writing. Unexpectedly came across this PD post.- 2. When one gets to the first jhāna, one “transcends” (or go beyond) the kāma lōka or “sense sphere”. Our human realm is one of 11 realms in the kāma lōka as we discussed before.
- In the Anupubbanirodha Sutta (AN 9.31): “Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti” OR ““When one has attained the first jhāna, perceptions of sensuality (kāma saññā) stop from arising“.
For us it’s evident what the answer is, but my question is when the perception of kāmasaññā stop from arising, does this mean when one attains the first absorption, perceptions of taste or the other sense organs have ceased?Reading the English translation of this sutta gives me the idea that the sutta is teaching the progression of unwholesome / akusala thoughts, speech and actions and kāmasaññā is involved.“The element of sensuality gives rise to sensual perceptions. Sensual perceptions give rise to sensual thoughts. Sensual thoughts give rise to sensual desires. Sensual desires give rise to sensual passions. Sensual passions give rise to searches for sensual pleasures.”“Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā, kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo, kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariḷāho, kāmapariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariyesanā.”The possible tricky issue that was mentioned, how does Arahant’s taste if kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in an Arahant. I believe the answer could be in the sutta below, “rasasaññā” but I’m not 100% certain since this is only my belief so far without other’s feedback or help.Saññaṁ pariññā vitareyya oghanti. Saññāti kāmasaññā byāpādasaññā vihiṁsāsaññā nekkhammasaññā abyāpādasaññā avihiṁsāsaññā rūpasaññā saddasaññā gandhasaññā rasasaññā phoṭṭhabbasaññā dhammasaññā—yā evarūpā saññā sañjananā sañjānitattaṁ—ayaṁ vuccati saññā. Saññaṁ pariññāti saññaṁ tīhi pariññāhi parijānitvā—ñātapariññāya, tīraṇapariññāya, pahānapariññāya.Katamā ñātapariññā? Saññaṁ jānāti—ayaṁ kāmasaññā, ayaṁ byāpādasaññā, ayaṁ vihiṁsāsaññā, ayaṁ nekkhammasaññā, ayaṁ abyāpādasaññā, ayaṁ avihiṁsāsaññā, ayaṁ rūpasaññā, ayaṁ saddasaññā, ayaṁ gandhasaññā, ayaṁ rasasaññā, ayaṁ phoṭṭhabbasaññā, ayaṁ dhammasaññāti jānāti passati—ayaṁ ñātapariññā.From what I can understand and see so far, it’s my believe and understanding that kāmasaññā arises when defilement comes into play, like kamaguna, kama, sankappa raga, and so forth. I would agree that kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in Arahants. Unless there’s another kāmasaññā or it means something else that I’m not aware of. When Arahants taste, smell and the other senses, I believe it would just be the 6 sanna’s mentioned. But I’m not 100% sure since I don’t know exactly what’s being said in the sutta.In the end, came across in the Nibbedhikasutta and other several sutta’s that aren’t linked (mentioned) below where the 6 sanna’s, “rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā,” are addressed.“There are these six perceptions: perceptions of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.”“Chayimā, bhikkhave, saññā— rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā.”“Six classes of perception: perceptions of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.”“Cha saññākāyā— rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā.”1 user thanked author for this post.
Thank you very much Sir!
- “But for both those to hold, kāmaguṇa must arise in the person.”
I’m in total agreement on this!
Thank you once again.
Thank you for your advice and recommendation Sir,
- “kāmaguṇa” are not intrinsic to the external object (arammana) being discussed. Those arise in one’s mind.”
That’s my current understanding of kāmaguṇa and it’s very clear to me that kāmaguṇa are not intrinsic to or in any internal or external object. That’s why I made the point that kāmaguṇa are mind made, just like kāma assāda. Kāmaguṇa arises in our minds when our defilements make contact (phassa) with a rupa or more specifically the 5 sense objects where we believe that 5 sense object is with the six characteristics “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” and when that happens kāma assāda also arises. In fact kāmaguṇa can change for the human being in a very short time.
Based on the example it was made about the pigs, I also have thought of many examples. I was planning on bringing up some of these examples and more thoughts on kāmaguṇa at a later time. But currently I just want to take things step by step before I get ahead of myself. My thoughts on kāmaguṇa that I have in mind but haven’t written it all out comes to the similar general ideas or understanding as what you have mentioned here and taught on PD.
Currently, I really need a second opinion or feedback to make sure that I have understood something properly. I’m going to try ask the question again, but I’ll try it in a different way. I’m sincerely sorry if I keep repeating myself with this question, but this is something that I really need to make sure that I’m not mistaken and have understood this correctly.
“Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.”
“The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.”
Would Lal sir or anyone here disagree with me or feel that I’m mistaken if I believe / said or taught based on what I just quoted in Pali and the English translation that sukha, somanassa, piti “can” or “does” arise from kāmaguṇa and the sukha, somanassa, piti that arises from kāmaguṇa is kāma assāda?
If there are no comments, I would take that so far others are not able to notice or see any mistakes in my discernment and understanding of what was quoted in Pali and the English translation given.
“Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.”“The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.”I have read over this line, I believe enough times. What I’m believing of seeing and understanding is that sukham, somanassa “can” arise from kāmaguna and this sukham, somanassa that arises from kāmaguna is kāma assāda.I was wondering if Lal or anyone can help me with a second opinion or confirmation that I have understood properly what was mentioned in Pali and translated in English that’s quoted at the beginning of this post. I’m really afraid of misunderstanding or getting this wrong.I should’ve mentioned this with my earlier post, but would like to add this since it’s my believe what was mentioned in my previous post and the quoted writing from the PD post below could be consider coming to the similar general idea or understanding.
Nibbāna – Rāgakkhaya Dosakkhaya Mohakkhaya – Part 1
“Burning” (Tāpa) Has Root Cause in Rāga (Greed) and Dosa (Anger)
6. We attach to things that we like. This “attachment” is described in several ways by the Buddha: icchā, taṇhā, nandi, piya, kāma, etc. When exposed to such ‘likable things” in this world, we become joyful and try to get more of them, even using immoral deeds. Therein lies the problem.
- Those things in this world that lead to such attachment and joyful feelings are called “things with kāmaguṇa“ or “characteristics/sources of kāma.”
It’s my current understanding that those “joyful feelings“, “likable things” and “we attach to things that we like” are kāmaguna and kāma assāda. “Try to get more of them, even using immoral deeds. Therein lies the problem.” That’s kāma.
I would like to share some of my current thinking and understanding of kamaguna for feedback and scrutiny. Currently without going into all the / further details that I have in mind and if I were to give a quick explanation on kāmaguna, kāma assāda, kāma and the connections between them, it would be that;Kāmaguna = are 5 sense objects that a living being in the kama loka regards / considers / views / experiences as “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. And when we regard / view / considers / experiences one of the 5 sense objects with the 6 characteristics “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā”, kāma assāda arises.Kāma assāda = is the piti, sukha, somanassa or the “gratification” that arises from kamaguna.Currently one of the reasons why I believe kāma assāda arises from kāmaguna is based on what’s translated in the sutta’s.Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.A) The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.B) Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are the gratification in the case of sensual pleasures.C) Whatever pleasure, whatever happiness arises in consequence of these five strands of sense-pleasures, this is the satisfaction in sense-pleasures.From reading and contemplating on the English translations, I get the idea that kamaguna is kama assada and vice verse. Kamaguna which is one’s own avija, tanha relating to the 5 sense objects is the source of or what gives rise to kama assada. Both kāmaguna and kāma assāda are both mind made!What I just mentioned about kāmaguna is kāma assāda and vice verse is of great importance to me and would like to ask for other’s thoughts and feedback.Kāma = is the intention of seeking or clinging to kāmaguna or kāma assāda. When one isn’t directly experiencing the 5 sense objects as kāmaguna, kāma is what generates / regenerates the experience of the 5 sense objects that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing or kamaguna’s which gives rise to kama assada.*** So basically when we experience kāmaguna, it gives rise to kāma assāda (this is an automatic process) and then we carry out or engage in kāma (which we have control over) to continue experiencing or regenerate kāmaguna and kāma assāda. ***Some other observations for scrutiny and feedback.Kāma is like vaci sankhara, while kāmaguna is like mano sankhara.Kāma is like upadana, while kāmaguna is like tanha.Kāmaguna is samphassa ja vedana and kāma is what perpetuates samphassa ja vedana.Hi Tobi,
No need to apologize, I totally understand and I’m probably in the similar boat.
- “Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna”.
I’m not sure if you had a chance to come across what I mentioned in the thread “Post on Kama guna – Origin of attachment (Tanha)” relating to a connection made between Kama guna and Mara.
“From Sakuṇagghisutta:
It teaches kāmaguṇa is the domain of Mara and cattāro satipaṭṭhānā is the domain of our fathers.”
What might be of interest to you is that besides the one connection that was made between kamaguna and Mara, in the last few days, I was able to make more connection between Kamaguna and Mara, I’ll definitely be sharing those connections at a later time. But currently, I’m working on writing out something that’s very important to me relating to kamaguna that I would like to present here for scrutiny and feedback to make sure what I have in mind is on the right track and is self consistent.
So far, I might have only mentioned about 50% what I have in mind about kamaguna. Investigating into the teachings of kamaguna, Kāma or kāmā, kāmehi from the last few weeks and contemplating the connection between them has been an eye opening experience for me and realized how far, deep and detailed the connections can get / go.
You mentioned:
- In my opinion, the first four Jhānas are capable of “Samphassa-jā-vēdanā” to delete/overwrite these storages
Currently I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with this since I have not or currently contemplate what you mentioned, but very recently I came across something that I feel might be of interest to you and relate to what you have in mind. Thought I would share.
“Ko ca, bhikkhave, vedanānaṁ assādo?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
“And what is the gratification of feelings?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.”
All the best Tobi and same to everyone here and all other living beings in all the different directions.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Greetings Tobi,
- “Kāmaguna are the five objects of the senses, they are the cause of the emergence of desire, hatred and delusion.”
From my current belief and understanding ofKāmaguna, it’s way more than just the five objects of the senses. Some of the idea’s I have in mind right now regarding Kāmaguna is that the explanation of it can get pretty detailed and deep. It’s possible that I could be wrong or mistaken about some of these idea’s, but I’ll be sharing what I have in mind regarding Kāmaguna for others scrutiny whenever I can finish typing out what I would like to share.
- “According to the Jain ascetics; Pleasure cannot be gained by pleasure; Joy can be gained through pain (sukhena sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ, dukkhena kho sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ).”
I could be mistaken about this, but actually from what I currently think of Kāmaguna is that pleasure can be gained from pleasure, at least in regards to Kāmaguna. I haven’t thought of the other pleasures like jhana’s, but at a later time, I’ll elaborate more on this since I would like others feedback. So far in my mind . . . it makes sense . . . but we’ll see.
- “Could it be that with Jhana Bhavana, we are trying to emit/produce a “pabhassara citta”?
Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, but from my current understanding, we’re not trying to “emit/produce” a pabhassara citta since pabhassara citta are produced with every citta. The thing is that we never experience or can experience a pabhassara citta unless one is an Arahant. Pabhassara citta are the 7 universal cetiska’s, but the citta get’s contaminated due to our anusaya’s or from the evolution of citta. That’s why or at least one of the reason’s why we can’t experience a pabhassara citta even though it’s produced with every citta.
This post can give you more details and explanation.
Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga
- “Could you say that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?”
Can you clarify for me what do you exactly mean by Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?
