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I usually always have work on the weekends. I won’t be able to attend the meetings but I’ll look into the recordings if there’s any. Have a great meetings everyone!
Thank you very much Venerable sir for the pragmatic response. I require some additional time and further contemplation to write out a satisfactory response in this thread for feedback / evaluation.
Throughout the years, I have seen many discussions online in regards to Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism. Many many times I wanted to comment but in the end decided to keep quiet. Let’s just say I can’t find anything good or positive to say about the tradition. . .Never having practiced or directly experience the tradition, but have done some research into the tradition and practice. Now seeing what Christian have brought up, I hope to provide additional support / grounds for the things he had mentioned.I would pat Christian on shoulder and look at others with a sigh . . .Saket mentioned:“However, I am not sure whether the Dalai Lama also do these extreme practices. I think he is a good person.”Here’s something for other’s consideration. . .Pretty much everyone out there isn’t aware of the current Dalai Lama background. What I’m willing to say right now is that the current Dalai Lama is or was an “asset” to a certain major country organization with a certain “agenda” initially to carry out.I’m not here to try convincing others what to think / believe in, but I have an online resource that proves what I just mentioned and it’s not something that I really want to show or share around . . . unnecessary. But I’m willing to share something else.I haven’t read everything from the PDF, not going to and don’t recommend others to do so unless they want to go down a rabbit hole. But if someone wants to take a quick glance or curious, I would say just check out the table of contents and the first few paragraphs of Chapter 4. The Law of Inversion. I think that should give someone a general idea what they’re dealing with Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism. Connect the things I brought up in this post with what Christian had just mentioned, you guys can come to your own conclusion.I can’t confirm or verify everything in the PDF, but in my 18 years plus of having gone down a very deep rabbit hole. Connecting the things mentioned in the PDF and what I have researched into / learned about this mundane world, I can see the connections and more . . .To end this post off . . . C&P from an online link . . .“Details.com speaks of the experiences of a boy….Last September, after a teaching session in Vancouver, someone in the audience asked Kalu about sexual abuse in the monasteries. He replied that he was sensitive to it because he had been molested.
The boy’s name is Kalu Rinpoche, a reincarnated thingie of some long-dead person (aka randomly selected baby). He created a video titled “Confessions of Kalu Rinpoche,” he says that he was molested by elder monks…”sexually abused by elder monks,” and when he was 18 his tutor in the monastery threatened him at knifepoint. “It’s all about money, power, controlling. . . . And then I became a drug addict because of all this misunderstanding and I went crazy.”
A gang of older monks who would visit his room each week…..This was hard-core sex, he says, including penetration. “Most of the time, they just came alone,” he says. “They just banged the door harder, and I had to open. I knew what was going to happen, and after that you become more used to it.” It wasn’t until Kalu returned to the monastery after his three-year retreat that he realized how wrong this practice was. By then the cycle had begun again on a younger generation of victims, he says. Kalu’s claims of sexual abuse mirror those of Lodoe Senge, an ex-monk and 23-year-old tulku who now lives in Queens, New York. “When I saw the video,” Senge says of Kalu’s confessions, “I thought, ‘Shit, this guy has the balls to talk about it when I didn’t even have the courage to tell my girlfriend.’” Senge was abused, he says, as a 5-year-old by his own tutor, a man in his late twenties, at a monastery in India.
Another interesting post was written by the Huffington Post. It is particularly notable because only the cached version is available.
It speaks of the experiences of a young girl, she too had been raped by monks. More surprising was the reaction of the authorities of the Tibetan community:
As shocking as the alleged crime was the revelation that the Mundgod camp officer and settlement officer had encouraged the father of the child not to pursue criminal charges against the men. Why? Out of fear of shaming HH the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people.
Widespread child abuse and even rape at his temples, yet he has very little to say on the matter…. Yet another case of See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil.
Actually the practices and more that’s been brought up in this post is this world current main ritual / tradition / practice just with a different name / face at the highest level of organizations that people put their trust in. I can only sigh and shake my head, but hey this is the current mundane world, what can I do except to strive for my own salvation and do my best to help others as well.What I can say to others is that the current mundane truth about this planet / events is not what the majority can see or believe it to be.I found some additional posts related to this current discussion.
Response to a Sensory Stimulus – Role of Gati/Anusaya
The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)
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Thank you very much for the revision and the additional explanation, for me that makes things more clear now. Thank you once again.
Would like to confirm if Arahants have distorted sanna? The reason why I’m asking is because one post mentions Arahants have distorted sanna while another say’s Arahants don’t.Kāma Dhātu (With “Distorted Saññā”) Tied to One’s Uppatti Bhavaṅga9. The “kāma dhātu” automatically generates a “distorted saññā” based on one’s uppatti bhavaṅga. Therefore, an Arahant or a puthujjana (average human) will have that initial “distorted saññā.”
Remember that a “made-up” saññā arises even in an Arahant if that Arahant was born in the human realm.<br />Why Would an Arahant Have “Distorted Saññā“?11. That is a consequence of still living with a “vipāka physical body” that the Arahant was born with. Until the death of that physical body, the Arahant must live among other humans.
- That physical body arose due to a kamma vipāka. It will receive not only the “distorted saññā” corresponding to the human realm but also any kamma vipāka that the physical body was destined to receive. While some minor vipāka may be avoided, any strong vipāka can manifest in the physical body. Thus, living Arahants have to endure injuries, sicknesses, etc.
From the most recent post:10. Therefore, taṇhā arises due to “mind-made vedanā.” They arose INSIDE the mind itself and did not come from outside. If external things can cause suffering, we will have to destroy external things to eliminate suffering. However, the Buddha showed that the root causes of suffering are within one’s mind and can be eliminated.- There is no inherent suffering or happiness in ANYTHING external; the sensory contact with an external thing CAUSES pain or happiness depending on our gati and āsāvās.
- An Arahant, who has removed all āsāvās/anusaya/saṁyojana/gati by comprehending the true nature (“yathābhūta ñāna”), is free of “distorted saññā” and therefore of any attachments.
Theruwan Saranai everyone,Initially this post was meant to post segments from Jethavanarama sermons in addition to what Jorg has already shared here, but I agree with what Jorg said “it’s better to watch sermons in their entirety for the best possible context.” Even though I already have some sermons segmented, I decided to drop the idea.– “I just found his explanation of Anicca a bit odd”Initially I felt the same way too. Currently I don’t believe to have understood / comprehended everything about the teachings / explanations or have watched all the sermons, but will continue to learn and put into practice the teachings / explanations. Doing my best to keep an open mind about the teaching of anicca and other teachings from Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery has benefitted me. Broadened my knowledge of the Tilakkhana and given me some things for consideration, contemplation and to put into practice. So far overall from what I have discerned for myself is that I can’t see why the teachings couldn’t be the Buddha dhamma or how it wouldn’t benefit others.For myself, I find the timing to be more than coincidental with Venerable Lal recent writings on distorted sanna and from what I believe to have understood / comprehended from Jethavanarama recent teachings is also related to distorted sanna. I look forward to continue with the learning and putting into practice the teachings disseminated by the two Venerable Sirs and others.2 users thanked author for this post.
Greetings Bahula,
I was able to meet and chat with Jorg about over a week ago. He definitely would like his article to reach as many people as possible and I’m sure he would have no problems / issues with you translating the article. But he did mention that he hasn’t published his article online or to the public yet because there was something that he would like to do first with the article before doing so, which I can’t exactly remember what the thing was.
Like Lal mentioned, I also don’t think he will have any objections with you or anyone translating the article, in fact he’ll probably be very happy to hear what you mentioned. But I would recommend you not to post your translation of the article online or to the public yet until you talk further with Jorg. In the meantime you can start working on the translation and I’m sure there would be no issues with you posting your translated work online or to the public at a later time.
I also posted in the Whatsapp group (with Jorg in it) about your message, I’m sure he’ll get back to you when he notices or see’s your message and when he has the opportunity to reply.
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– “The deeply embedded perception of a “me” is associated with sanna vipallasa. Removal of sakkaya ditthi does not affect that much the removal of the perception of a “me.”
From reading the paragraph, it seems like it would still be of benefit for a Sotapanna to mediate on netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ of the five aggregates and on the other dhatu’s like in the Mahārāhulovādasutta.
– “Thus, the correct translation of “‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ ti” is “mine, of myself, or can be beneficial for me?”
That’s very interesting . . . In the past year or so I have been working on coming up with an interpretation that works best for my own understanding of that famous verse.
Can’t say this would be the right translation or interpretation of that famous verse, but it seems like it works best for my practice and understanding at this current time. What I have come up with so far is:
Etaṃ mama (had as mine), esohamasmi ( I am any of the 5 aggregates or the 20 kinds / types of sakkaya ditthi), eso me atta’ ti (is of value or importance to me).
None of the 5 aggregates or dhatus “can be had as mine”, that my essence is any of the 5 aggregates and the 5 aggregates is of importance or value to me.
Tentatively planning to arrive in Sri Lanka on September 18th. Will visit some sites, then stay in the area of JBM monastery around September 26th and will leave on Oct. 2 back to Colombo and next day fly out.
Was hoping to travel to Sri Lanka around the end of September, but mundane affairs factored into the reasons for date of travel.
Based on the dates, I’ll be able to meet up with Jorg, but not sure about LDF.
Since I’ll be arriving earlier and planning to visit some sites like the Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi and surrounding area. If Jorg or LDF have any questions like transportation around Sri Lanka or other questions, feel free to ask. I can be contacted by Whatsapp while on the trip (whenever I can use wi-fi).
KāmasaññāInitially seeing here the topic of kāmasaññā being discussed on the forums. Due to not having knowledge of or have put in the time or effort to gain knowledge about topic; wasn’t planning on putting too much time or focus on the topic until at a later time. In the end felt there were some uncertainty in the answers to the questions regarding kāmasaññā. Thought of siding tracking and taking a quick look into kāmasaññā, not knowing what to expect from just “taking a quick look” turned out to be beyond expectations. It’s my belief what transpired could potentially be of benefit to others that are interested in the topic. I can’t say I know or understand everything about kāmasaññā, but just hope to share what I have come across for other’s discernment and feedback.It was mentioned:- “Actually, I am still not on board with Arahant even having “kama sanna.” If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it.”
- This is a tricky issue because we don’t have any Arahants to verify this for us.”
From what I have come to learn, it’s my belief that kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in an Arahant. If that’s the case, then how does Arahant’s taste? Would that be the tricky issue involved?I hope sufficient materials and evidence will be provided by the end of this post, hoping the information can be of use and help for others knowledge and on the path.I would like to mention that I haven’t put in the effort or focus into learning Pali besides some important Pali Buddha dhamma words. I can’t say I have the qualifications based on academic standards interpreting sutta’s or even being able to currently understand Pali or the sutta’s without English translations and interpretations.What’s shared is just based on what I can piece together and understand on my own. I’m aware sometimes I might not have thought of or see where there might be errors or inconsistencies in what I believe in. I hope what is shared can be scrutinize and reviewed by others for feedback.At a later time it’s mentioned:- In a comment above, I stated: “Actually, I am still not on board with Arahant even having “kama sanna.” If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it. “
- Even an Arahant would have the “kama sanna,” i.e., experience the sweetness of sugar, bitterness of lemon, etc.
From Saññāsutta, in the parallel, “Antidotes for harmful perceptions”.“Mendicants, there are these three things.“Tayome, bhikkhave, dhammā.”<br />
“Sensual, malicious, and cruel perceptions. Kāmasaññā, byāpādasaññā, vihiṁsāsaññā.”<br />
From what I can discern and see is kāmasaññā being mentioned along with the other unwholesome states of mind. So far, this leads me to believe that kāmasaññā isn’t just simply related to the possibility of tasting sweetness or other taste, but the main relationship is with defilements or akusala.In the same sutta, it gives me the idea of kāmasaññā is something that should be given up or renounced.“You should develop perceptions of renunciation to give up sensual perceptions, perceptions of good will to give up malicious perceptions, and perceptions of harmlessness to give up cruel perceptions.”“Kāmasaññāya pahānāya nekkhammasaññā bhāvetabbā, byāpādasaññāya pahānāya abyāpādasaññā bhāvetabbā, vihiṁsāsaññāya pahānāya avihiṁsāsaññā bhāvetabbā.”From Anupubbanirodhasutta:“For someone who has attained the first absorption, sensual perceptions have ceased.”“Paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti;”Just when I was about to complete and post this writing. Unexpectedly came across this PD post.- 2. When one gets to the first jhāna, one “transcends” (or go beyond) the kāma lōka or “sense sphere”. Our human realm is one of 11 realms in the kāma lōka as we discussed before.
- In the Anupubbanirodha Sutta (AN 9.31): “Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti” OR ““When one has attained the first jhāna, perceptions of sensuality (kāma saññā) stop from arising“.
For us it’s evident what the answer is, but my question is when the perception of kāmasaññā stop from arising, does this mean when one attains the first absorption, perceptions of taste or the other sense organs have ceased?Reading the English translation of this sutta gives me the idea that the sutta is teaching the progression of unwholesome / akusala thoughts, speech and actions and kāmasaññā is involved.“The element of sensuality gives rise to sensual perceptions. Sensual perceptions give rise to sensual thoughts. Sensual thoughts give rise to sensual desires. Sensual desires give rise to sensual passions. Sensual passions give rise to searches for sensual pleasures.”“Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā, kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo, kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariḷāho, kāmapariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariyesanā.”The possible tricky issue that was mentioned, how does Arahant’s taste if kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in an Arahant. I believe the answer could be in the sutta below, “rasasaññā” but I’m not 100% certain since this is only my belief so far without other’s feedback or help.Saññaṁ pariññā vitareyya oghanti. Saññāti kāmasaññā byāpādasaññā vihiṁsāsaññā nekkhammasaññā abyāpādasaññā avihiṁsāsaññā rūpasaññā saddasaññā gandhasaññā rasasaññā phoṭṭhabbasaññā dhammasaññā—yā evarūpā saññā sañjananā sañjānitattaṁ—ayaṁ vuccati saññā. Saññaṁ pariññāti saññaṁ tīhi pariññāhi parijānitvā—ñātapariññāya, tīraṇapariññāya, pahānapariññāya.Katamā ñātapariññā? Saññaṁ jānāti—ayaṁ kāmasaññā, ayaṁ byāpādasaññā, ayaṁ vihiṁsāsaññā, ayaṁ nekkhammasaññā, ayaṁ abyāpādasaññā, ayaṁ avihiṁsāsaññā, ayaṁ rūpasaññā, ayaṁ saddasaññā, ayaṁ gandhasaññā, ayaṁ rasasaññā, ayaṁ phoṭṭhabbasaññā, ayaṁ dhammasaññāti jānāti passati—ayaṁ ñātapariññā.From what I can understand and see so far, it’s my believe and understanding that kāmasaññā arises when defilement comes into play, like kamaguna, kama, sankappa raga, and so forth. I would agree that kāmasaññā doesn’t arise in Arahants. Unless there’s another kāmasaññā or it means something else that I’m not aware of. When Arahants taste, smell and the other senses, I believe it would just be the 6 sanna’s mentioned. But I’m not 100% sure since I don’t know exactly what’s being said in the sutta.In the end, came across in the Nibbedhikasutta and other several sutta’s that aren’t linked (mentioned) below where the 6 sanna’s, “rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā,” are addressed.“There are these six perceptions: perceptions of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.”“Chayimā, bhikkhave, saññā— rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā.”“Six classes of perception: perceptions of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.”“Cha saññākāyā— rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā.”1 user thanked author for this post.
Thank you very much Sir!
- “But for both those to hold, kāmaguṇa must arise in the person.”
I’m in total agreement on this!
Thank you once again.
Thank you for your advice and recommendation Sir,
- “kāmaguṇa” are not intrinsic to the external object (arammana) being discussed. Those arise in one’s mind.”
That’s my current understanding of kāmaguṇa and it’s very clear to me that kāmaguṇa are not intrinsic to or in any internal or external object. That’s why I made the point that kāmaguṇa are mind made, just like kāma assāda. Kāmaguṇa arises in our minds when our defilements make contact (phassa) with a rupa or more specifically the 5 sense objects where we believe that 5 sense object is with the six characteristics “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” and when that happens kāma assāda also arises. In fact kāmaguṇa can change for the human being in a very short time.
Based on the example it was made about the pigs, I also have thought of many examples. I was planning on bringing up some of these examples and more thoughts on kāmaguṇa at a later time. But currently I just want to take things step by step before I get ahead of myself. My thoughts on kāmaguṇa that I have in mind but haven’t written it all out comes to the similar general ideas or understanding as what you have mentioned here and taught on PD.
Currently, I really need a second opinion or feedback to make sure that I have understood something properly. I’m going to try ask the question again, but I’ll try it in a different way. I’m sincerely sorry if I keep repeating myself with this question, but this is something that I really need to make sure that I’m not mistaken and have understood this correctly.
“Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.”
“The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.”
Would Lal sir or anyone here disagree with me or feel that I’m mistaken if I believe / said or taught based on what I just quoted in Pali and the English translation that sukha, somanassa, piti “can” or “does” arise from kāmaguṇa and the sukha, somanassa, piti that arises from kāmaguṇa is kāma assāda?
If there are no comments, I would take that so far others are not able to notice or see any mistakes in my discernment and understanding of what was quoted in Pali and the English translation given.
