December 31, 2023 at 8:18 am #47410VajraguruParticipant
Dear Pure Dharma,
I hope everyone is doing well.
I like to study everything, but I was just wondering how you guys felt about Tibetan Buddhism?
I was very much impressed with Lama Jigme Rinpoche and the Padma Rigdzin Ling Buddhist Temple.
December 31, 2023 at 9:15 am #47414
- It would be helpful if you could give a link to a post/discourse on a fundamental concept like Four Noble Truths, Satipatthana, Ananapanasati, Anicca, anatta, etc. Any one of those topics would be fine.
- That would make it easier to see how different Tibetan Buddhism is from Theravada Buddhism.
December 31, 2023 at 11:47 am #47419
The topic of this thread is “Different types of Buddhism”. However, according to my understanding there are no “different types of Buddhism”. Buddhism has only one type and that is to get rid of all sufferings and attain Nibbana.
Lord Buddha didn’t teach Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana. These branches were made up or created by philosophers and other religious people after the Parinibbana of Lord Buddha.
Buddhism or Buddha Dhamma means “a Dhamma which teaches how to uproot all types of bhava” (Buddha= Bhava + uddha). Bhava roughly means “field” (of existence). There are three categories of bhava: kama bhava, rupa bhava, arupa bhava.
The goal of a Buddhist is to attain liberation from this suffering filled Sansara. This liberation is called Nibbana. Lord Buddha defined Nibbana as “ragakkhayo Nibbanan, dosakkhayo Nibbanan, mohakkhayo Nibbanan” (removal of raag, dosa, moha is Nibbana).
This liberation can be achieved only through wisdom (panna) which comes through the inner realisation of “Paticca Samuppada/4 Noble Truths/Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta“.
The factors needed to achieve this are collectively called the “37 factors of Awakening” (sattis Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma).
I hope it gives a very brief summary of what actually “Buddhism” is.
December 31, 2023 at 1:37 pm #47426
One more clarification for those who (intentionally or unintentionally) distorted pure Buddha Dhamma.
After the Parinibbana of Lord Buddha, some people started creating “new sutras” in Sanskrit and later in Chinese, Tibetan and other languages. They introduced many “dangerous concepts” which distorted and obscured pure Buddhism.
One of these “dangerous concepts” was that an Arahant or a Pacceka Buddha is not fully enlightened as they are following “Hinayana” (lower/inferior vehicle).
Later on, many “esoteric practices” were introduced which has nothing to do with the original teachings of Lord Buddha. I wonder why do they even call it “Buddhism”.
Please understand that I don’t have intentions of hurting anyone. I just want to make things clear.
- A Samma Sambuddha achieves the same Nibbana as that achieved by an Arahant or a Pacceka Buddha. There is no difference.
- However a Samma Sambuddha and a Pacceka Buddha attains Nibbana by their own while an Arahant (or Savaka Buddha) attains Nibbana by the help of Samma Sambuddha or his disciples (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahat).
- Furthermore, the power and knowledge of a Samma Sambuddha is unsurpassable and unparalleled . It can’t be compared to anyone in the entire existence. This is due to the power of his 10 Paramithas (or perfections) which he fulfilled throughout many-many aeons (maha kappa).
We should remember that arising of a Samma Sambuddha and his Dhamma is extremely rare. Someone who distorts or pollutes Buddha Dhamma is playing with fire. We should be very careful.
I hope those who are wise enough can distinguish between what is Buddhism and what is not.
May all sentient beings achieve the Supreme peace of Nibbana!
December 31, 2023 at 3:04 pm #47432GadParticipant
Friend Vajraguru, what Saket says is a clear and coherent summary of the true Dhamma. It should be understood that Tibetan Buddhism was born in the 7th century AD. It was founded by Guru Rinponche. This Buddhism followed the Mahayana movement. However, in addition to Mahayana elements, he added elements of Bön (the ancient religion of the Tibetans before the arrival of Mahayana Buddhism). The Dhamma is pure in its beginning, middle and end. He has nothing to add or take away. If we add or remove elements, it is adhamma (opposite of Dhamma).
After I left Christianity, I came across Tibetan Buddhism. I firmly believed in it, until I learned that Theravada is the original Buddhism. I wanted to learn more and it showed me the many inconsistencies of Mahayana.
I wanted to understand the teachings of Lord Buddha. Mahayana added many elements that did not come from Lord Buddha. This is what led me to leave.
Your experience will not be the same as mine, but it is good to think about the consistency of these teachings and compare them to the originals.
December 31, 2023 at 3:25 pm #47433
1. Most of the statements by Saket above are indeed correct about Buddha Dhamma or Buddha’s teachings.
Saket wrote: “Lord Buddha didn’t teach Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana.”
- Someone could say that “Lord Buddha didn’t teach Theravada either.”
2. Theravada‘s most compelling evidence is the Tipitaka, written over 2000 years ago by Arahants, who can be justifiably argued to be well-versed in the teachings of the Buddha Dhamma.
- Furthermore, the content in the Tipitaka is truly self-consistent. But for that, the Pali text must be correctly interpreted.
3. As I have pointed out in many posts, current translations of the Pali Tipitaka (in Thervada texts) have many errors. There is nothing wrong with the Tipitaka. However, the incorrect interpretations have also corrupted Theravada (as practiced by many today).
- See, for example, “Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline.”
- I wrote a whole section of posts on such incorrect interpretations: “Elephants in the Room.” For example, what they teach as “Anapanasati” is ridiculously wrong!
4. Therefore, we should be open to discussions.
- I am open to discussing any material from anyone that could be a part of Buddha’s teachings.
- We should have honest discussions without putting down anyone. But, of course, I have pointed out some glaring problems with Mahayana teachings. See, for example, “Key Problems with Mahāyāna Teachings” and “Saddharma Pundarika Sutra (Lotus Sutra) – A Focused Analysis.”
@Vajraguru: We can discuss any of my above posts too, if you wish to point out any errors in them.
January 1, 2024 at 5:03 am #47453
Happy new year everyone.
Friend Vajraguru (Dharmakirti), I apologise if my comments were too harsh. I don’t want to demotivate anyone. I just wanted to make clear distinctions between real Buddhism and the counterfeit ones.
A person can follow anyone’s teachings if it suits his/her understanding. There is no compulsion. My point is that we should be very careful in labelling or declaring any guru’s/ lama’s/yogi’s/god’s teachings as Lord Buddha’s Dhamma.
Lord Buddha’s Dhamma is very unique, very rare and very profound. Its the Dhamma that the world has not heard before (pubbe ananusutessu Dhammesu).
A Samma Sambuddha’s Dhamma (if followed properly and diligently) leads to the removal of raga, dosa, moha from the mind. This is the method to check whether you are following Lord Buddha’s Dhamma or any mundane teaching.
Note that there is a huge difference between “removing” raga, dosa, moha and “suppressing” (temporarily subsiding) raga, dosa, moha. Its very important to identify this difference otherwise many people start believing that they have attained Nibbana whereas in reality they have only achieved a mundane Samadhi/anariya Jhana.
For understanding Lord Buddha’s teachings, knowing the correct meanings/interpretations of key concepts like Paticca Samuppada, Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, Pancupadanakkhanda, etc is necessary.
I hope you or anyone reading this comment will wisely reflect, investigate and contemplate the TRUTH.
With loving kindness…
May everyone realise the Noble Truth and achieve Nibbana!
January 5, 2024 at 6:03 pm #47550ChristianParticipant
Tibetan buddhism is not real Buddhism or Dhamma that leads to Nibbana. Tibetan buddhism books and practices (tantras) contain things like human flesh eating, sexually consuming body secretions, and “guru practices” which are directly or indirectly connected to hinduism (I’m talking as a general term, not specific tradition) shatras and tantras. Before learning Dhamma I was studying those various texts and if you are influenced by ignorance those things may be appealing to people. It was explained why that happens in a thread about music and notes (https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/music-and-distorted-sanna/) – what is more “shocking'” that it uses the word “Buddha” explaining those practices. I sincerely hope people will reconsider practicing this type of “buddhisms”. Not only that, there are plenty of occultism and rituals, and when compared to suttas – suttas are against those practices, they are not leading to Nibbana but developing unwholesome states of mind. Buddha said clearly that Dhamma is good at the beginning, middle, and at the end. Tibetan quasi-buddhism is only sometimes good at the beginning but in reality, it’s just a sectarian attitude based on manipulation of people who are unable to think for themselves.
Many people would say “But its just meaning is different” or “meaning is secret teachings”, while the real Buddha said clearly in the suttas that there are no secret teachings.
“Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: “What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, about the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?”
With all due respect to tibetan culture, and way of life as people do not choose where they are born and I know we are all limited one way or another, but I would strongly advise not to calling “Tibetan Buddhism” “Buddhism” rather just Tibetan Tantra or Tibetan Hinduism as they worship hindu gods like shiva in many temples they build with specific goal go for rituals (in Nyingma Tibetan school).
Tibetan Hinduism (so-called “buddhism”) goes clearly against the Buddha Dhamma in many ways that it just can not be called or classified as Dhamma.
(I’m initiated into Shingon also in certain Tibetan teachings, I had “secret teachings” that were only available for people who were initiated – those are all in the bin of course, many of those texts were pretty extreme and pretty much line for line with hindu tantric texts while using “Buddhist” iconography to assert certain “authority” for person reading/studying)
I welcome everybody no matter what background they are from, I’m not talking in a judgemental way as I believe most people studying wrong things are most likely good people, trying to do good things and being not necessarily intentionally “hoaxed” but they are buying snake-oil. Many of those monks believe those teachings as many of them are part of yoga so obviously there may be some anariya jhanas or states/samadhis/powers but those do not lead to Nibbana.
January 6, 2024 at 3:48 am #47553
Thanks a lot dear Christian Sir for explaining these facts.
Yes, there exists many extreme practices within Tibetan religion (we CAN NOT call this as Buddhism). This is the reason they are esoteric. Of course they CAN NOT lead to Nibbana.
I know about these tantric practices because I was born in a Hindu family and still live among Hindus. So I am familiar with these things.
However, I am not sure whether the Dalai Lama also do these extreme practices. I think he is a good person. In fact many Tibetan monks and followers are good people. But unfortunately they are following wrong practices due to delusion/lack of wisdom. And the most shocking thing about it is that they believe that the Shakyamuni Buddha gave these teachings. (see how delusion can wrek havoc on the minds of people)
The westerners (generally) are easily influenced by such alluring practices.
Similarly, the Mahayana version also has many delusional beliefs and practices.
We should never insult anyone. But we should NOT equate any mundane beliefs or teachings with pure Buddha Dhamma.
We should develop compassion for those people and help them find the real Buddha Dhamma (if they are ready to receive it).
January 6, 2024 at 7:03 am #47561
I don’t disagree with much of what Christian and Saket stated. However, my thoughts are the following.
1. Those who follow different “sects/traditions” of Buddhism do that mainly because they are “born into families” who follow that particular tradition.
- Most of them don’t know much about other traditions.
2. Even within Theravada, there is “ritualism” to a significant extent.
- The best example is the practice of “breath meditation” as Anapanasati. Isn’t that a ritual?
3. Even regarding the doctrine, most current Theravada texts translate “anatta” as “no-self” and put down the concept of gandhabba as a “Mahayana concept.”
4. I made the mistake of trying to engage in debates about points #2 and #3 in the Dhamma Wheel forum for several years.
- Such debates are mostly unproductive. One cannot persuade others by engaging them with a “debate mindset.” It actually hurt my practice. Now that I have given up that effort, my mind is more clear.
- I may have also hurt some (unintentionally) because my engaging them made them angry with me. Some made nasty comments about me, which can only hurt them. Of course, I forgive all of them; I never had any animosity toward anyone. I was very frustrated about why some people could not see logic and reasoning. But now I understand that is just how it is.
5. We should present our interpretations; anyone interested will read/listen. We can certainly do our best to answer and engage them if they have questions and willingly engage.
- hat goes for people from other religions as well.
- In fact, I don’t perceive Buddha Dhamma as a religion. That is because the Buddha was not a “savior” who could “save” others if they placed faith in him. No one can “save” anyone else. The Buddha only taught how people get into more future suffering because they do not comprehend the “real nature of this world.” Anyone who can see the truth of that worldview will also see how to live their lives to stop future suffering.
P.S. The Buddha stated that trying to persuade those unwilling to listen is a foolish deed, like trying hard to court a woman who has repeatedly said “no.”
January 6, 2024 at 7:42 am #47564
Thanks for your thoughts Ven. Lal Sir.
Yes, I agree with what you said above.
I recently started listening to Dalai Lama. As far as my intuition goes, I think he is genuinely trying to follow the Bodhisattva path. But he is NOT aware of the true Buddha Dhamma. So he has many misconceptions about pure teachings of Lord Buddha. But his efforts to help promote world peace are commendable.
There are other people too who are genuinely into the Bodhisattva mindset.
The most famous one, whom the world knows is Jesus Christ. Yes! He is a Bodhisattva. Many people don’t know about this but Jesus himself came from higher realms to meet most Ven. Waharaka Thero on a Christmas day. Jesus is not satisfied with heavenly pleasures and is actively working (in unseen ways) to help people realise the message that he gave 2000 years ago.
Jesus is worried about how his people are misled and are not doing what Jesus taught them to. Actually, the deeper teachings of Jesus Christ are hidden these days. Just like the Tipitaka, the Bible also contains the words of the Christ, but the deeper meanings behind them are forgotten.
Very few people know about this…. Jesus was a “yogi” and during his famous “lost years” he visited the Himalayas and did meditation. He also came to Sri Lanka, the land of the Samma Sambuddhas! Jesus has deep respect towards Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
January 6, 2024 at 10:16 am #47572GadParticipant
Friend Saket, I was a former christian, I agree with your comments. My father is a Protestant pastor. I still live among Christians. There is a lot of inconsistency in the Bible. Many concepts have been banned. The early Christians believed in the cycle of rebirth.
Jesus spoke of defilement indirectly. The most notable example is when he says: “It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a man unclean; but what comes out of the mouth makes a man unclean. “»
His people believed that defilement came from outside. He said that no, they come from the heart of man. As a Buddhist, we know that the heart is the gandhabba (energy body).
It is likely that he is a bodhisatta. However, it is still very far from the Dhamma of Lord Buddha. Sasatta ditthi (the belief in an eternal soul) is extremely present in his teachings.
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January 6, 2024 at 9:19 am #47567TripleGemStudentParticipantThroughout the years, I have seen many discussions online in regards to Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism. Many many times I wanted to comment but in the end decided to keep quiet. Let’s just say I can’t find anything good or positive to say about the tradition. . .Never having practiced or directly experience the tradition, but have done some research into the tradition and practice. Now seeing what Christian have brought up, I hope to provide additional support / grounds for the things he had mentioned.I would pat Christian on shoulder and look at others with a sigh . . .Saket mentioned:“However, I am not sure whether the Dalai Lama also do these extreme practices. I think he is a good person.”Here’s something for other’s consideration. . .Pretty much everyone out there isn’t aware of the current Dalai Lama background. What I’m willing to say right now is that the current Dalai Lama is or was an “asset” to a certain major country organization with a certain “agenda” initially to carry out.I’m not here to try convincing others what to think / believe in, but I have an online resource that proves what I just mentioned and it’s not something that I really want to show or share around . . . unnecessary. But I’m willing to share something else.I haven’t read everything from the PDF, not going to and don’t recommend others to do so unless they want to go down a rabbit hole. But if someone wants to take a quick glance or curious, I would say just check out the table of contents and the first few paragraphs of Chapter 4. The Law of Inversion. I think that should give someone a general idea what they’re dealing with Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism. Connect the things I brought up in this post with what Christian had just mentioned, you guys can come to your own conclusion.I can’t confirm or verify everything in the PDF, but in my 18 years plus of having gone down a very deep rabbit hole. Connecting the things mentioned in the PDF and what I have researched into / learned about this mundane world, I can see the connections and more . . .To end this post off . . . C&P from an online link . . .“Details.com speaks of the experiences of a boy….
Last September, after a teaching session in Vancouver, someone in the audience asked Kalu about sexual abuse in the monasteries. He replied that he was sensitive to it because he had been molested.
The boy’s name is Kalu Rinpoche, a reincarnated thingie of some long-dead person (aka randomly selected baby). He created a video titled “Confessions of Kalu Rinpoche,” he says that he was molested by elder monks…”sexually abused by elder monks,” and when he was 18 his tutor in the monastery threatened him at knifepoint. “It’s all about money, power, controlling. . . . And then I became a drug addict because of all this misunderstanding and I went crazy.”
A gang of older monks who would visit his room each week…..This was hard-core sex, he says, including penetration. “Most of the time, they just came alone,” he says. “They just banged the door harder, and I had to open. I knew what was going to happen, and after that you become more used to it.” It wasn’t until Kalu returned to the monastery after his three-year retreat that he realized how wrong this practice was. By then the cycle had begun again on a younger generation of victims, he says. Kalu’s claims of sexual abuse mirror those of Lodoe Senge, an ex-monk and 23-year-old tulku who now lives in Queens, New York. “When I saw the video,” Senge says of Kalu’s confessions, “I thought, ‘Shit, this guy has the balls to talk about it when I didn’t even have the courage to tell my girlfriend.’” Senge was abused, he says, as a 5-year-old by his own tutor, a man in his late twenties, at a monastery in India.
Another interesting post was written by the Huffington Post. It is particularly notable because only the cached version is available.
It speaks of the experiences of a young girl, she too had been raped by monks. More surprising was the reaction of the authorities of the Tibetan community:
As shocking as the alleged crime was the revelation that the Mundgod camp officer and settlement officer had encouraged the father of the child not to pursue criminal charges against the men. Why? Out of fear of shaming HH the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people.
Widespread child abuse and even rape at his temples, yet he has very little to say on the matter…. Yet another case of See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil.Actually the practices and more that’s been brought up in this post is this world current main ritual / tradition / practice just with a different name / face at the highest level of organizations that people put their trust in. I can only sigh and shake my head, but hey this is the current mundane world, what can I do except to strive for my own salvation and do my best to help others as well.What I can say to others is that the current mundane truth about this planet / events is not what the majority can see or believe it to be.
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