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To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“
Sir I have started this section today. I think it will take me many days to go through all the posts including posts which are linked within those posts!
Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
I have gone through some of these posts but not all. In any case I’ll complete them. Earlier I used to aspire for heavenly future rebirth but now the suffering associated with such heavenly rebirth(anariya being in heaven surely falls in lower realms afterwards) has become apparent to me. So my goal now is no more rebirth after this life.
Thank you sir!To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
Yes sir and I believe following sir lal sort of fulfils that requirment. (atleast for me)
Thank you for pointing this out sir!
There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
Understood sir.
The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahācattārīsaka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
I read both versions sir. In that sutta buddha says that right view, right effort and right mindfulness and all three of these things are kind of go/grow together(in non-linear way) and keep circling and running around right view only. I don’t have any questions about that, I accepted that and now I am trying to understand and apply it.
Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.”
To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi.I think this answers my question sir! So I will have to stick with practice which is off course mundane version and eventually if I practice with enough wisdom I may reach their noble version some day! I believe as one continues to live with right view aniccha nature will surely become apparent step by step. Atleast I hope so.
Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts.
Wow I am glad that he was born…if he weren’t born I don’t think I would have gotten this opportunity of taking guidance from you or anyone here sir Lal. Thank you so much. 🙏
Before whenever I had any query about dhamma I used to directly search it on Google and would try to read many answers from many links. But now whenever I have any such doubt I search it on Google only, but I add the word ‘puredhamma’ during searching so that I will get explanation from this website only this website truly shows pure dhamma of nobles as if any noble being directly talking and I am confident about this.
So my aim now is to study all the posts from this website and that way I will definitely not go wrong.
I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.
Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…
Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.
Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna
The page took time to update. I could see your latest detailed post only after I posted my 2 questions about 7 factors.
But after that I carefully read it and only then I posted my following replies.
I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
Now Sir I have some questions regarding your detailed post..
6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.
Sir I perfectly understood above part of your post along with analogy of a glass of water given by you.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
I feel I should keep on reflecting on this above part of post regularly because I should understand that first. I feel like I have just accepted it from surface but it hasn’t reached to my very core. I hope reflecting upon it and carefully studying through the topics you mentioned in above post will help me in that. I am gonna read your above detailed post again many times and I’ll ask questions if there are any. But what else I should do other than reflecting and reading and trying to understand those topics in detail??
Btw Thank you very much for that detailed post sir!The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?
These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”
I perfectly understood this part sir.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue
Sir, it’s alright, you don’t have to answer them as I have started to get what you are saying. Can you just answer another related question please!
1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?
If one cannot attain nibbana solely by developing all the 7 factors of awakening then anyways I am sticking with your previously given answers.
In any case I wish to know how do I reach/cultivate the path to nibbana in this life only. So I am seeking answers in this context only.Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.Yes sir I have downloaded it and I’ll definitely use that for my next lengthy comments. Thank you!
Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.
Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.
Sir thank you for giving your time. I’ll try to answer each of your questions one by one.
I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)Sir, in my opinion, by focusing on breathing it may lead one away from thoughts and towards temporary relief but being mindful of breathing forces one to deal with all those thoughts and know their impermanent nature and weakens the tendency of ‘holding on’ or tendency of ‘clinging’ on to them. This is just my opinion.(Btw I haven’t experienced pitisukha yet in my life)
But in any case I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.
So I completely accept what you said in above 2 points.
Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?
Sir by ‘keen investigation of dhamma’ I believe it means ‘seeing the impermanence of all the thoughts/distractions’. Am I right here sir?
Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?
I meant the ‘nature of impermanence’ ‘anityabodh’ by the word ‘dhamma’. I guess I am wrong here, ain’t I sir?
Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?
Yes exactly sir. I guess I am wrong here as well??
If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?
No sir I don’t think it will(help to) lead to nibbana(not directly atleast)and that is why I am asking here how to practice in order to reach nibbana. But I believe this is preparatory step? Am I right sir?
In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
Highest wellbeing… when mind is freed from three poisons of raga, dvesha and moha? For example one becomes arhat when one’s volition/intention becomes free. In my understanding I believe after one glimpses nibbana for the first time, one becomes unable to do those akusala kammas which will lead him to apaya realms as one has understood what action or thought will take one where. I mean anriya person like me who has read some suttas may understand that there is no ‘I’ present in me but my cetana does not know that. It’s like I believe fire burns but I have never touched fire ever so I merely believe fire burns but my cetana is not aware of that. So my cetana is not free but an arhat person’s cetana has become free. Am I right sir?
In other words, what is the goal of your practice?
To have glimpse of nibbana in this life only.
Please correct me sir!🙏
P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.
Sorry about that sir. From next post I’ll definitely do that.
It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.
Hello sir I will explain my question again in simple and concise manner now.
1) I have heard that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation helps in developing first four ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Mindfulness (sati)
>Keen investigation of the dhamma
(dhammavicaya)
>Energy (viriya)
>Rapture or happiness (piti)And Vipassana-insight meditation helps in developing remaining last three ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Calm (passaddhi)
>Concentration (samadhi)
>Equanimity (upekkha)(Let me ignore this Vipassana insight meditation part and instead talk about breathing meditation part, for now, at least)
2) Mindfulness of breathing (as I know it) involves witnessing breathing in and breathing out by staying aware of breathing at the area of nostrils…all distractions will (in the form of thoughts and doubts) come but still one is supposed to bring one’s mind again and again back to awareness of breathing. Process should be continued till one can constantly be aware of breathing without any distractions. It is a constant fight against all the thoughts and distractions.
3) In another case When one makes one’s mind thoughtless by trying not to focus it anywhere and suppressing distractions and then one (can) starts to experience some form of happiness above the happiness from 5 sense organs, which is also kind of ‘pitisukha'(this is not the same as 4th factor of awakening but something like that)(this is how anariya jhana starts I suppose because in anariya jhana one suppresses thoughts without realising the truth of their impermanence)(same as anariya gods who achiev birth in heaven by directly doing punna kamma without getting rid of tendencies to do papa kamma), then in order to start and attain and experience anariya jhana one is supposed to focus on that pitisukha like happiness or rather an anariya being naturally at this point by default latches onto that pitisukha like happiness as soon as it arises because it is also some overwhelming happiness. Now this can be done/reached by initially taking the help of mindfulness of breathing meditation also.
4) Through mindfulness of breathing meditation initially one can make one’s mind concentrated and can(without having to deal with distractions of mind) start to directly experience some kind of pitisukha by moving focus away from breathing and directing it to becoming thoughtless (by suppressing thoughts with force initially) to focus mind(achieve ekaggata) and make it more & more empty of distractions/thoughts resulting in experience of some kind of pitisukha.
So generally when one starts mindfulness of breathing meditation ..with practice, first many many thoughts/distractions come and they are suppressed or forcibly ignored and then they fade away(due to suppression) then breathing fades away and then as a result pitisukha arises in such focused mind and then anariya person latches onto it.(But this is not the proper way of mindfulness of breathing meditation). This is how anariya jhana is started I suppose.5) Now true mindfulness of breathing meditation involves continuously staying aware of in-out breathing and even pitisukha is not to be latched on and when pitisukha arises still one is supposed to stay aware of one’s breathing only. Actually it’s very very very hard to reach pitisukha if one practices proper mindfulness of breathing meditation. (I am talking this in the case when general anariya persons practices “proper/true” mindfulness of breathing meditation and I am not talking about ariya people sirs). So one is supposed to not let breathing fade away(by default it starts to fade away by becoming smaller and smaller as mind becomes less and less distracted). When breathing starts to fade away one is supposed to apply slight force to breathing (which has become so small now) just enough to increase the awareness of breathing and not let it fade away. Now as one works to constantly stay aware of breathing, first factor of awakening which is –
>mindfulness or ‘sati’ starts to develop and as one continues one is forced to deal with all the impure thoughts/doubts that arise in mind as we continue. So one’s observation of one’s thoughts actually increases and they are seen as ‘anitya'(impermanent) as they fade away after arising continuously and this is what I believe helps in developing the second ‘bodhyanga'(factor of awakening) which is –
>keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts and then as one practices regularly one simultaneously develops 3rd factor of energy or ‘viriya’ as one is practicing continuously, fighting continuosly and after working like that only then one reaches the pitisukha(which is the 4th factor of awakening).
*Because of doing this kind of proper mindfulness of breathing meditation (I believe) one reaches a state when one is constantly aware of his breathing without any thoughts or distractions and simultaneously one’s mind is filled with pitisukha also!* But to reach this state one has to get rid of/be done away with all the deeper and deeper distractions and doubts that come to one’s mind on the way by seeing their impermanence. And this is actually very easier said than done!So my first question is this… Is there any mistake in my above all the 5 points? If yes then please clarify and kindly correct me 🙏
My second question is, considering above 5 points, is it right to say that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation if done truly(as I tried to explain above), it can, help in developing first 4 factors of awakening instead of reaching anariya jhana??
It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it.
In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)Sorry about that sir I got it now. I ll keep it in mind from now on.
Ok sir it’s alright reply whenever it’s possible for you I’ll wait.
Others are also welcome to comment. Thank you!
You are probably in India.
Yes exactly sir.
The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.
Wow this is what I want to reach sir. I feel whenever I try not to break precept I do that forcefully and not naturally. I wonder how and when moral behaviour becomes natural and not forced!
Thank you for the explanation. My understanding is actually not higher or lower but I believe it is sort of messed up because of reading too much unnecessarily. It’s hard for me to know what is right way of practice (for me, of course) and what is not.
I daily try to reflect on impermanence and daily chant “triratna Vandana” (homage to triple jewel chant)
It’s actually very hard for me to follow all the things you told me in the above message, such as asubha and paticca samuppada. It’s overwhelming. I’ll try to start them gradually. Thank you!
@Jittananto:
Thank you, respected sir, for offering me discussion with disciples of waharaka thero. I don’t know him but based on what little I’ve read about him on this website by sir Lal, I believe he was Ariya being possibly arahant!
And also thank you for the advice sir. I am trying to do most of what you said. I need more about in *how to apply?* Sir. That is what I am trying to find.I heard that breathing meditation helps in developing first four “bodhyangas”(factors of awakening)
1) Mindfulness (sati)
2) Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
3) Energy (viriya)
4) Rapture or happiness (piti)and Vipassana insight meditation helps in developing remaining three “bodhyangas”
5) Calm (passaddhi)
6) Concentration (samadhi)
7) Equanimity (upekkha)My question is about that, what I’ve heard above…is it right? I hope to get answer from sir Lal and offcourse other’s answers also I’ll take heed of. (Forgive my English if I am sounding rude kindly sirs)
Also by breathing meditation I mean staying witness at the area of nostrils and being aware of nature of incoming and outgoing breath. Also I ‘feel’ jhana(anariya offcourse) is entered or starts when one reaches pitisukha and ignores breathing and then latches on that resultant pitisukha and (forcibly) going for ‘thoughtlessness’ in order to increase that pitisukha more and more ignoring and forgetting breathing. But in breathing meditation (as I know it) one is supposed to stay aware of breathing continuously, even if one attains pitisukha still one is supposed to stay aware of breathing only.
Pitisukha starts when, as one witnesses breathing with more and more awareness one detaches more and more from his thoughts and as one becomes more and more aware of breathing with lessening of distractions of thinking and thoughts, the breathing becomes smaller and smaller and fades away altogether after some time and gets replaced by pitisukha slowly slowly.
So in anariya jhana(by default) once concentration is attained with the help of focusing on breathing, and then one focuses on resultant pitisukha/rapture generated moving away from breathing (this is I believe a reason why it’s called anariya jhana as one clings).
In simpler words true breathing meditation involves continuous awareness of breathing and even pitisukha is to be treated as distraction. Because goal of breathing meditation is “taking in of purities/good qualities(good thoughts) and taking out/removing away/getting rid of impurities/good qualities(good thoughts)Now this is what I believe, plz correct me if I am wrong respected sirs. Am I right here?
Also if successful breathing meditation does not mean to forget breathing even if one reaches pitisukha, then is it right to say that this kind of breathing meditation helps in developing first four factors of awakening?
If yes then I should continue to (try to) do this kind of breathing-awareness meditation and if I am not right then I’ll have to change my ways I guess. Because I want to practice so that I’ll go closer to nibbana and possibly attaining stream-entry in this life only. Thank you sirs. Sorry I sometimes sound rude because my English isn’t that good.
P.S. – I have read too many variety things and now because of that I am too much confused and find it hard to know what is correct way of practicing dhamma to attain nibbana and what is not. I am seeking guidance here.
“Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here..”
- I do not think it is a wrong translation. Other people have told me the same. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please post a comment because this is critically important.
- Mr. Goenka had no idea about the true meaning of sankhara.
- The “technique” depends on a wrong concept! You should be able to figure out the rest.
Okay sir! I got my answer now.
Thank you very much for your clarification and correction regarding the topic! Yes I’ll try to figure out the rest!Yes sir I read the introduction part of sankhara from the link you provided above. Thank you for correction.
Sir, I think what goenka referred to as ‘sankhara’, it was, as I read on the link you provided , anusayas(the latent tendencies) actually. Translation in another language is surely tough and error causing task. I remember hearing latent tendencies in subconscious mind during course in English and hearing ‘sanskaras of raga, dvesha and moha’ in our native language. Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here.
Sir regardless of that, what do you think about the technique of Vipassana as I (tried to) explain above. Is it possible to reach stream-entry with this practice? Or What do you think sir? Is there any possibility of that?
