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What I simply wanted to suggest was that attachment to them is unworthy.
Yes I understand this.
How exactly the jhanas help in gaining insight, this brother cannot tell. With much gratitude I can admit to being able to get into the first jhana but no higher. The venerable Lal has shared before that he can reach the third one, so perhaps he can tell you more.
Wow that’s awesome I think! Btw as far as I know, jhanas help only those with wisdom by making the realisation into 3 characteristics possible/easier (although ‘easier’ word is wrong to use here). I feel it’s like insight into truth of suffering and through all 4 noble truths become smoother with jhanas. Just speculation though, not sure. I can’t even get into 1st jhana btw. You can get into 1st that’s nice, so maybe your journey has become smoother I guess. Sir lal can reach third one that’s also very good to know. But I think journey towards truth (realisation of 3 characteristics becomes smoother with jhanas i believe, but this holds true only for those with wisdom, maybe those who are atleast sotapanna anugami)
When in jhana, it is crystal clear that this is much better than getting joy from eating a hamburger. But using a little logic will tell us that there is again something better than jhana. Therefore, just as we should not cling to sensuality, we should not cling to jhana. Not cling to views. Not cling to becoming. And not cling to ‘self’ ideas. When this brother was a commoner, his body was his ‘I am’. When I was a Christian, my soul was my ‘I am’. When I was a Hindu Non-dualist, atman was my ‘I am’. Now by the grace of the Dhamma and Noble Ariyans, there is no clinging to ideas of ‘I am’.
Nice to know. When I was around 12-14 years (school life) i could get into some trance like state which was water like state where I would get very very light and it was possible only after becoming thoughtless but it was not 1st jhana as my teacher told me. but I can confidently say that I can guess/understand how happiness from jhana is subtle compared to happiness from these 5 sense doors, even though I haven’t even reached 1st jhana.
You shared, ”Because I don’t think anariya person like me…” This is a horrifying statement. You say you are anariya, that means you are saying you’re going to end up in hell! You got to do something! FAST! Stop reading this post, sit down, calm your mind, think deeply, realise nothing is worth getting… nothing is worth becoming… Nothing can in truth be, ”I am this, this is me, this is my ‘self’, this belongs to me.” Put away all doubt, superstition and ritualism. This body, mind and consciousness… ”I am not this, this is not me, this is not my ‘self’, this does not belong to me.” GO!…
Wow, I can clearly see that you are trying to point to reality! Thank you for that. I think if I have to say it i would say I am something like (sotapanna anugami). Well I heard my teacher say this about me to my family member but he never told me in face. But since my teacher cannot say lie/untruth so I feel yes that must be the case. Other than that, dying without even glimpsing at nibbana, is like wasting precious human birth. I am certainly not gonna waste it anyhow.
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Dosakkhaya’s question: “Q. Then, kāya saṅkhāra does only refer to any type of saṅkhāra? Or can it have other meanings in different contexts? To be more specific, in other suttas, can kāya saṅkhāra refer to saṅkhāra related to bodily kamma?”
- I was also not sure about this for a while. But I believe ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘ always refers to those saṅkhāra associated with the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.’ In some cases, ‘kāya‘ refers not to the ‘whole pañcupādānakkhandha kāya’, but only to the ‘purāna kamma stage’ of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.’ In the early ‘purāna kamma’ stage, ‘kāya saṅkhāra’are mostly a weak version of saṅkhāra called saṅkappa. I think it is better not to get into this detail right now, because it may confuse some.
- Kamma are three types: mano, vaci, and kāya kamma. Mano kamma are those that arise automatically. Then we begin thinking (vitakka/vicāra) about speaking or taking physical action. Thus, both vaci and kāya kamma are performed through vaci saṅkhāra.
- The three types of saṅkhāra are defined in the “Dutiyakāmabhū Sutta (SN 41.6).” There, the English translation incorrectly translates “kāya” as “physical body.” I will write a post on these issues later.
Sir @Lal, I have one question. You said this…
Kamma are three types: mano, vaci, and kāya kamma. Mano kamma are those that arise automatically. Then we begin thinking (vitakka/vicāra) about speaking or taking physical action.
Then if one has started developing sati/mindfulness then is it possible to slow or break this transition of mano kamma which arise automatically then vitakka/vicara about speaking and taking action and effectively break or stop the unwholesome tendencies to reach in action? Or can the develoed mindfulness stop the thinking (vitakka/vicara)? Also can this automaticness of mano kamma be also stopped? Or atleast can one have some kind of filter there to not let the harmful kamma continue and only let the beneficial or wholesome kamma continue? Through developing of mindfulness or sati?
Dear friend Saurabh@2110
Peace and love to you and all the other noble ones.
In this brother’s humble opinion: We must be very careful with this idea of we are living in a game or a virtual reality.
To use the Holy Buddha’s symbolism, this is like trying to catch a snake by just simply walking up to it and grabbing its tail. Causes harm to yourself, causes harm to the snake, and causes harm to others who love you.
Perhaps this is a more constructive or skillful way of looking at it: Let’s imagine a UFO lands in front of the white house in Washington DC. All cameras will be focused on that event, and anyone who has an internet connection will be glued to his or her screen watching it. Why? Because it’s a big thing, it must be worthy of our attention. But what is big, what is worthy? Why do we want a big thing? Why do we want something worthy of our attention? Because, it’s reducing the fire of suffering. When we focus on something intently, it is blocking the suffering of being. Consider carefully. The hardest thing for a human being to do is what? Nothing. Doing nothing is the hardest thing. Why? Because then there’s nothing blocking the suffering of being.
Now look at the big picture. We are humans. We have a better ‘being’ than 99.999% of living beings. Think about that for a moment.
You shared, ”…does this understanding becomes irreversible after stream entry? And one not so related question, is a stream entered able to bear kind of more suffering (from the viewpoint of puthujana) to avoid bigger suffering (from the viewpoint of ariya), as he has realized the lack of real essense in his own body?”
Look at the words which are said by a most venerable arahant, ”I have lived the life, done what was to be done, laid down the burden, attained my own goal, the fetters of becoming utterly destroyed, freed by perfect profound knowledge.”
You ask if a stream-enterer can bear more suffering. He does not need to be able to bear more suffering. He has realized that 99.999% of living beings are suffering more than humans but he will never become one of those beings (he cannot be born as an animal or a ghost or go to hell). He is starting to put down the incredible burden of ‘being’. He’s starting to cut the fetters of ‘becoming’. He is starting to be freed by the knowledge of suffering. To do nothing is suffering. To do something is a humiliating attempt to cover some suffering for a time. This is UNACCEPTABLE.
No state of being is acceptable. No life form is free of this humiliation. No pleasure through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind is worth it. No level of jhana (subtle forms of joy in deep meditation) is worth it.
Drop this burden. May all the beings of this universe escape.
Namo Buddhaya 🙏🏻
Oh. Thanks for responding. I appreciate the response. Being stream enterer means one starts dropping the burden. I see that. But I wonder why you say this :
No level of jhana (subtle forms of joy in deep meditation) is worth it.
I thought, if one even on the surface understands (and accepts) the 3 characteristics of existence which are anicca, dukkha and anatta, then for such a person jhanas can be very good base for penetrating insight? I have read somewhere in suttas that jhanas (higher the jhana better, 4th the best) for penetrating the insight of truth first and and all 4 through that. So why do you say jhanas are not worth it? I mean yes for someone who sees them as a form of blissful experience and craves them without understanding these 3 characteristics of existence then for him jhanas can be perfect entry point to apayas in future but for someone who knows those 3 characteristics atleast on surface and wants to penetrate and choose insight into reality as soon as possible, aren’t jhanas helpful for such person? Because that person won’t be approaching them for the sake of enjoyment and for such person jhanas wouldn’t even be goal, rather it would be just some kind of side effect of the process, isn’t it?
Also I feel when one starts to go near and near to paramattha sacca then one inevitably passes through jhanas even if they don’t know at that time it is 1st now it is 2nd like that. I think this must be true but not sure. Sir lal would know the truth maybe.
I also think jhanas are necessary till some time only just as sir lal said that one should not forcefully try to avoid sensual pleasures which might even lead to depression! I think same goes for jhanas as well but this maybe applies to anariya jhanas only and not to ariya jhanas which are the domain of anagamis/arahat I think. But I think I am wrong here. Because I don’t think anariya person like me would know these things so it is just probability.
I am actually following your posts sir lal. Idk why I don’t even need to read the questions to read your answers/posts. So I am following your posts without missing. As for my understanding them, i accept them all completely but it is very hard to put in practice. A question i have related to above your posts, does that mean that we are kind of living in virtual reality like as in game but which is real for us (for most of us excluding ariyas maybe) and we are (as puthujana/anariya beings) just character who just mistakenly identifies himself as concrete being with possessions and deep attachment with the strong sense of individuality? Am I wrong in viewing like this?
So if the answer is sort of yes then does this understanding becomes irreversible after stream entry? And one not so related question, is a stream entered able to bear kind of more suffering (from the viewpoint of puthujana) to avoid bigger suffering (from the viewpoint of ariya), as he has realized the lack of real essense in his own body?
I might get follow up questions but Idk if answers to these above questions (not sure if they are beneficial to me) are even required for stream entry. But more or less you can decide that I believe. Thank you!
One’s number of teeth has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to attain a magga phala.
- Buddha’s teachings are focused on the mind, not the physical body.
Thank you for the reply sir. So I am also capable of attaining magga-phala within this same lifetime. It’s a relief. I understood now. 🙏🙏🙏
I have declared myself free of the apayas (per my understanding). It is permitted by the Buddha; see #11 of
Haha I knew this must be the case venerable sir. I am aware that ariyas can declare their attainment if they feel it is appropriate. Wow I am happy and rejoice in this confirmation. So yes I can confidently say that I have interacted with 2 living ariyas in my life. First is my teacher and then it is you as far as I can understand. How fortunate I am wow! The moment I read your first post in 2023, I felt that you are ariya. By no means I can identify the ariyas but I felt the vibe of pure dhamma or purity atleast and felt some form of pull as I felt I could hear the ariyakantha. I can’t believe I am literally talking with someone who knows buddha dhamma on this partly broken mobile of mine. Wow good luck of mine. I have read many many posts from your site, some even more than once because I could taste the nectar of truth coming directly from buddha there. So I read the posts on your website like a very thirsty and deprived for water traveller who found a source of water directly.
I used to participate in the Dhamma Wheel forum, but I have stopped.
I will never again seek to engage in debates with others. Those who are interested can read my website and ask questions to clarify any unclear points.Yes sir I read your some of dharma wheel forum points. I went there to search only the posts written by you. I felt sad for all those who were arguing with you because their egos were getting hurt.
Btw out of above 5 links you provided I have read 2nd and 3rd and remaining I’ll read now.
I know I talk too much unnecessary stuff but I cannot contain my happiness when I meet people like you!
Thank you for replying sir. I somewhat understand the value of your words and your work if not completely. Thank you for the instructions.
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I just saw your posts. I am a bit busy these days, as I am traveling.
- I will try to respond today or tomorrow.
Sure sir. Whenever you get time!
Sir, my another following question which could be somewhat personal is, how does one reduce the attachment to one’s own body? I mean I had one experience if I am allowed to share, it was during the afternoon nap. I laid down and slept then I woke up because of my alarm but then I stayed sitting there only on bed because I was still somewhat feeling sleepy so I was debating with myself that should I again go to sleep or not and then I decided to again take a nap for some more minutes and I again lied back down. What happened is that I was awake while falling asleep and i realized that I felt asleep. I could literally see my surrounding wall, the bed I was lying on and during all this time I was in my body only. I felt like I messed up and shouldn’t have been awake while falling asleep I felt like I am trapped in my body…I was literally trapped inside my body…because I tried to wake myself up by moving my body such as hands and limbs but when I tried that I realised that they are not moving. I was trying to move my limbs like I was giving signals to move to my limbs but they were not responding. I tried to move all of the body but couldn’t. I felt I was stuck in my body and I didn’t have any thoughts. I started to panic a bit but I felt I couldn’t even panic so I tried to say something and then after saying some words I felt unconscious and then after some moments I woke up and realised that I slept very deep at that moment!
Another related experience, this experience also happened when I slept after waking up but in the morning. This happened yesterday only actually. I woke up in the morning, did some study on my laptop and did exercise and stuff and then went to sleep again because I was getting drowsy during study so thought of taking quick nap. So I laid down on my bed and then I was in dream where I was in my house only. But suddenly I realised that I am in dream and the moment I realised that I am in dream i started falling asleep in my dream and in my dream itself immediately, I tried to prevent myself from falling asleep and thought what should I do so I couldn’t come up with anything so I just tried to choke myself thinking that this time I will explore surroundings without going back but I failed and felt asleep then and there in my dream and immediately afterwards I woke up and got up on bed. Its like when I dream i realise that I am in a dream. Many times I realised that I am in my dream during dream itself. So what is happening am I progressing or is it the opposite sir? Or I am just wasting my time about these things and should dismiss them as not worthwhile things to give time for? What do you think respected lal sir? Or should I ask this question on personal experience section?
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I just saw your posts. I am a bit busy these days, as I am traveling.
- I will try to respond today or tomorrow.
Sure sir. Whenever you get time!
My another following question is that, why many people such as many from suttacentral website and dharma wheel or some other sites are of a general opinion that puredhamma site is distorting buddhist teachings? I don’t mean to create debate and fight, just want to know what lal sir has to say to this.
Is it because the people are more focused on knowledge and not dhyana? Because in India, particularly in Maharashtra state I see many many monks are busy giving sermons and invest most of their time in sermons and programs. I have seen only 2 monks in my life who talked about dhyana/meditation. One of them died sadly during corona outbreak. But remaining almost every monk focuses on giving sermons on jataka tales or some kind of stories and paritta or sutta chanting and sometimes on uposatha and about moral conduct related stuff. Almost none of the talk about meditation/dhyana or of its importance. Major chunk of monks literally believe that there are not arhants alive right now. My understanding is that this earth cannot survive without the presence of arhats or ariyas so ariyas are definitely present, it’s just the lack of sufficient good karma that it’s hard to come by them.
I have one incident to share, I was in another city for my graduation/college so at that time one monk came to the colony where I live. He walked on the path literally in front of our house and in our colony. The colony I live there monks are always greeted by people always! Sadly but on that day not a single person came to even just fold hand or greet him. Literally noone greeted him noone even looked at him. Later I heard from another monk that that monk who came to our colony was arhat monk. I was not in my city I was in another city for my education, my bad luck. But after knowing this I felt maybe noone including me had enough punna kamma to meet that arhant monk atleast at that time.
another question is that, is it the case that too much knowledge (useful and useless both) can be a big obstacle for dhyana or meditation or I may say forprogressing on the path to sotapanna or sakadagami?
To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“
Sir I have started this section today. I think it will take me many days to go through all the posts including posts which are linked within those posts!
Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
I have gone through some of these posts but not all. In any case I’ll complete them. Earlier I used to aspire for heavenly future rebirth but now the suffering associated with such heavenly rebirth(anariya being in heaven surely falls in lower realms afterwards) has become apparent to me. So my goal now is no more rebirth after this life.
Thank you sir!To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
Yes sir and I believe following sir lal sort of fulfils that requirment. (atleast for me)
Thank you for pointing this out sir!
There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
Understood sir.
The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahācattārīsaka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
I read both versions sir. In that sutta buddha says that right view, right effort and right mindfulness and all three of these things are kind of go/grow together(in non-linear way) and keep circling and running around right view only. I don’t have any questions about that, I accepted that and now I am trying to understand and apply it.
Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.”
To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi.I think this answers my question sir! So I will have to stick with practice which is off course mundane version and eventually if I practice with enough wisdom I may reach their noble version some day! I believe as one continues to live with right view aniccha nature will surely become apparent step by step. Atleast I hope so.
Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts.
Wow I am glad that he was born…if he weren’t born I don’t think I would have gotten this opportunity of taking guidance from you or anyone here sir Lal. Thank you so much. 🙏
Before whenever I had any query about dhamma I used to directly search it on Google and would try to read many answers from many links. But now whenever I have any such doubt I search it on Google only, but I add the word ‘puredhamma’ during searching so that I will get explanation from this website only this website truly shows pure dhamma of nobles as if any noble being directly talking and I am confident about this.
So my aim now is to study all the posts from this website and that way I will definitely not go wrong.
I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.
Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…
Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.
Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna
The page took time to update. I could see your latest detailed post only after I posted my 2 questions about 7 factors.
But after that I carefully read it and only then I posted my following replies.
I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
Now Sir I have some questions regarding your detailed post..
6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.
Sir I perfectly understood above part of your post along with analogy of a glass of water given by you.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
I feel I should keep on reflecting on this above part of post regularly because I should understand that first. I feel like I have just accepted it from surface but it hasn’t reached to my very core. I hope reflecting upon it and carefully studying through the topics you mentioned in above post will help me in that. I am gonna read your above detailed post again many times and I’ll ask questions if there are any. But what else I should do other than reflecting and reading and trying to understand those topics in detail??
Btw Thank you very much for that detailed post sir!The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?
These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”
I perfectly understood this part sir.
if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.
In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!
Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue
Sir, it’s alright, you don’t have to answer them as I have started to get what you are saying. Can you just answer another related question please!
1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?
If one cannot attain nibbana solely by developing all the 7 factors of awakening then anyways I am sticking with your previously given answers.
In any case I wish to know how do I reach/cultivate the path to nibbana in this life only. So I am seeking answers in this context only.Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.Yes sir I have downloaded it and I’ll definitely use that for my next lengthy comments. Thank you!
