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I also had same experiences like you regarding anariya jhana as well as indulges, at about same age as yours. I think I had reached something like closer to 2nd anariya jhana (my present guess, could be wrong though), it was amazing happiness like a still lake and absense of both discomfort and thinking. I stopped trying to reexperience that state many years back. But now I have realized in last 1.5 to 2 years that, the more expert one is in anariya jhanas, deeper in hell one might land! It’s like higher you jump, lower you fall! Anyways, you said, you will focus on the dhamma as soon as the school year is over. I was like that only! I was so much obsessed with reading suttas from tipitaka that I used to hide the sutta books while studying so that my parents wouldn’t know I am reading suttas from tipitaka instead of studying, because my parents have literally scolded me because of my poor performance in school. That was the obsession I had about suttas from tipitaka. I used to think that if I become sotapanna before my final exam, I will score top in my college exam, I was 16 yrs old when I used to think like that. My goal was definitely noble but my conduct was definitely not because I didn’t know how to practice dhamma. Btw I am a dentist now.
I do think that practicing dhamma for attaining sotapatti phala also includes studying enough to score well in exams so that one’s livelihood becomes stable. I think I may have reached sotapanna anugami stage because I have become selfish enough to stop indulges, so my conduct is very good now, I stay mindful most of the time in a day, I have experienced piti many times and I am closer to experience sukha/joy now. So my advice would be that, try to exert your energies more in studies and as much less as possible in indulges. Because engaging in indulges will just postpone the sukha/joy of life, so if one really want to experience sukha or proper happiness in life, one needs to have mindfulness of one’s daily life. In your case this can translate as focus on studying as much as possible and as much less in indulges as possible. I feel because of living like this, although it is still very long and almost impossible, I feel I am progressing towards sotapatti phala, even if it is very very slowly. But I know it is harder than I can imagine. So all the best buddy!
Saurabh asked: “.. let’s say there is an ariya being and I am aware of that, then is it correct as per Buddha’s teaching to mention this in case I think it can be useful to someone and won’t get misinterpreted?”
- It is better not to talk about someone else being an Ariya (Noble Person).
- However, the Buddha specifically stated that one can declare one’s attainment of the Sotapanna stage in several suttas. See, for example, “Bhaya Sutta (AN 10.92).” It describes the ‘qualifications’ one must have to make such a declaration. Of course, it is not necessary to declare even if one believes one has attained it; however, if that declaration helps others in some way, it is a wise use.
Understood. Thanks for the answer sir. I will keep this in mind from now on!
Thank you very much for your encouragement my friend, it helped me a lot on this path! Hopefully I will attain this state one day and even meet Maitreya Buddha in the future by making aspirations day after day. I will defintely watch the video you have sent me.
Once again thank you! Namo Buddhaya!
Hello and welcome buddy! I am amazed that you have this much understanding at the age of 16 years! I can clearly see why venerable lal sir hastily put that post together. I am 29 years old and I see that you have more/deeper understanding about dhamma than myself. I felt literally encouraged when I read your questions and responses. Btw I don’t know if I should tell this blatantly like this, but as your friend I wish to tell you that this website is run by someone who is ariya (noble person). This is my personal belief and opinion based on the way the content is there on this website. Anyways the point is you (including myself) are more lucky than we think. Once again Welcome bro!
Btw venerable @Lal sir, I have related question, let’s say there is an ariya being and I am aware of that, then is it correct as per buddha’s teaching to mention this in case I think it can be useful to someone and won’t get misinterpreted? I am aware that one should not do this because if one is claiming something which is not true then that is lying and breaking of the precepts and accumulation of bad kamma as a result but what if contrary to this one is sure about it, then can one say it in goodwill? (In my place in India also I am aware of one ariya (noble person), so I am asking this in that context as well) (I seem too much direct sometimes so sorry for that)
I hope I didn’t overstep anything. If I did, please delete this post of mine lal sir because I fear unwholesome kamma around and towards noble beings.Damn, The level of discussion is very high! I read all of arguments and responses above, I literally couldn’t process all but continued as I really love reading discussions like this. @Nibbid83 Sir, with respect, I really am amazed with knowledge and expertise you have about many things like logics and arguments and whatnot. My personal experience and observation on this forum/site is that, when you engage with venerable lal sir, in any discussion, whatever he says actually targets one’s internal belief system directly. I have good amount of experience with that.
You said:I will gladly participate in this Sutta discussion with you, but any observer reading this exchange must keep in mind that when you present your counter-arguments, by your own admission, they are based on a subjective, untestable phonetic system, whereas I am citing the explicit, contextual definitions provided by the Buddha in the Tipitaka.
Regarding above, I have one comment (There is also a possibility that I am wrong here), although you said, you are citing explicit contextual definitions provided by the Buddha in the Tipitaka, you are actually using those definitions or content from tipitaka in totally unique way which is entirely based on your personal internal belief system. I am putting this not as argument/criticism, but only as my observation (based on off course my internal belief system as well). And venerable lal sir’s responses, almost always by default engage that internal belief system. Just saying my pov based on my experience ok, I don’t mean to offend anyone. My motivation to write this message was that, I am learning so much from this awesome discussion so I am interested your response. You don’t need to reply to me or this message of mine because I don’t want to be obstacle in the smooth flow of discussion which is going on above.
With much respect.
Thank you so much for the response venerable sir @Lal. Off course I don’t believe jhanas/samapattis are necessary for attainment of magga-phala. I understand that part, I read that more than once here. I got my answers. Btw I also read all the posts marked in your response. Thank you!
I would ignorantly feel very happy with myself if I dream about the Holy Buddha. Yet, it is just a namarupa (sound & sight / name & form); something you see with your eyes and hear with your ears.
As I understand it (not realized though) that all experiences are nāma-rūpa in dependence on consciousness (as per dependent origination/paticcasamuppada), but the path can use skillful perceptions to cultivate wholesome qualities. For example, recollecting the qualities of Buddha (buddhānussati) is praised in suttas for generating gladness, serenity, and samādhi. So even if we see any image in dream, if it leads to faith, generosity, or commitment to precepts upon waking, it can be skillful. Also a wholesome perception that inspires faith, virtue, or compassion is not the same as one that inflames greed or conceit, even if both can be clung to. I also think (same as you) the problem is not the image, but clinging, craving, wrong view, or conceit about it.
Interesting how in dreams you just see and hear, there is no smelling, tasting or touching. It’s like you become a half-brahma… kamaloka form with brahmaloka senses.
But as far as I remember, I have dreamt of eating some tasty foods and I have also experienced sense of ‘touching’ or ‘tactile sensation’ in dreams, ‘flying’ included. Maybe it is subjective. But yes sometimes it is interesting, except the scary dreams though.
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If anyone can provide such a reference in the Tipitaka, that will be appreciated.
Sir, I found it in a sutta from Anguttaranikaya. Following is the reference sutta:
@Lal sir, I hope I did not break any forum rule of conduct.
but this situation (Buddha Dhamma VS visual spiritual authority) could perhaps be a candidate for the most difficult decision in all the universe!
Idk why but I agree to what you said above. I mean for some, at certain stages, what you said above can be a reality.
I also sometimes remember dreams but not each night but it is a regular occurrence for me and I am sometimes aware that I am in a dream. Sometimes I was even aware at the moment of ending of dream and getting back to reality, there were few times when during a dream, the realisation that I am in dream coincided with ending of dream and awakening to reality. But I don’t remember seeing any spiritual figure in dreams.
As far as I know, there are 2 types of dreams, one is meaningful one, which is rare occurrence and another type is meaningless whose purpose is only for us to help sleep.Also instead of lord Buddha, as I have read that, Siddhartha Gautama had 5 dreams which he had before his enlightenment. So they are said to be the five great dreams of the bodhisattva. I am pasting them here below :
The said five Great Dreams were as follows:
(1) He dreamed that he was sleeping on the surface of the earth as his bed, with the Himalaya mountains as his pillow, placing his left hand on the Eastern Ocean, his right hand on the Western Ocean and both his legs on the Southern Ocean. This first dream presaged his realization of Omniscience and becoming a Buddha among devas, humans and Brahmās.
(2) He dreamed that the species of grass called Tiriyā with a reddish stalk about the size of a yoke emerged from his navel and while he was looking on, it grew up, first half a cubit, then one cubit, one fathom, one ta, one gāvuta, half of a yojana, one yojana and so on, rising higher and higher until it touches the sky, the open space, many thousands of yojanas above and remained there. This second dream presaged that he would be able to teach the Path of Eight Constituents (Aṭṭhāngika-magga), which is the Middle Way (Majjhima-paṭipadā), to humans and deva.
(3) He dreamed that hordes of maggots, with white bodies and black heads, slowly crept up his legs covering them from the tip of the toe-nail right up to the knee-cap. This third dream presaged that a great many people (with black heads) who wear pure white clothes would adore the Buddha and take Great Refuge (Mahāsaranagamaṇa) in him.
(4) He dreamed that four kinds of birds, blue, golden, red and grey in colour, came flying from the four directions and when they threw themselves down to prostrate at his feet, all the four kinds of birds turned completely white. This fourth dream presaged that clansmen from the four classes of people, namely, the princely class, the brahmin class, the merchant class, the poor class, would embrace the Teaching of the Buddha, become bhikkhus and attain arahantship.
(5) He dreamed that he was walking to and fro, back and forth on a large mountain of excreta without getting besmeared. This fifth dream presaged large acquisition of the four requisites of robe, alms-food, dwelling place and medicines and that he would utilise them without any attachment and clinging to them.
Above is from the text ‘Maha Buddhavamsa – The great chronicle of buddhas’. (This text is based on khuddak nikaya from tipitaka, commentaries and is written by monk named ‘Mingun Sayadaw’, who was said to have studied/learned complete tipitaka) (Just giving source info)
Anyways, I completely agree with sir @Lal.
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Yes, if one can attain even an anriya jhāna, that can help. That means they are to overcome the ‘kāma saññā‘ on a superficial level.
However, attaining any jhāna is not a necessary condition to attain a magga phala, as I explain in that post.
People have baseless ideas about jhāna.How jhanas can help I wonder but I don’t think I need to know too much unnecessary stuff further. Ok understood sir
Yes. For example, a Sotapanna who temporarily overcomes the ‘kāma saññā‘ to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi will be without the ‘kāma saññā‘ as long as they remain there. Once they finish the ‘Satipaṭṭhāna session,’ they get back the ‘kāma saññā’ unless they attain the Anāgāmi stage while there.
wow that must be awesome… ok. but above applies to sotapanna only, so its hard to understand for me, about satipatthana session.
Thank you for the valuable response sir!
Thank you sir @Lal for suggesting that post, although it was probably 2nd or 3rd time I read it.
I just revised the post “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna” to clarify a few points and to make the distinction between Ariya and anariya jhāna clearer.
Sir my understanding was that, jhanas are there to make the process of attaining magga-phala smoother. I understand that even process of breathing is some form of suffering but it is very very subtle one. I also understand that panca-upadan khanda are actually not happy thing but are just suffering and when they or anything seems happiness through them, its just a lie or illusion, I accept this on surface atleast.
I cannot reach any jhana or anything like that, my understanding of aanapanasati is that, if it is properly and truly cultivated, it can lead to magga-phala by hook or by crook (it takes tremendous time and efforts), because one’s awareness of reality becomes more and more as one progresses in it and it starts to become clearer that reality is not happiness, it is really painful, literally painful, and even if one bears it, it starts to become unbearable (this fact really scares me to the core), I don’t understand and can’t even imagine what is beyond this suffering. One more conception I have is that, while cultivating aanapanasati or anything, one should not forget/ignore/reject reality. I feel that those who abandon reality like that are those who attain anariya jhanas or at least, the anariya way of loving the trance. Am I correct here? Idk if I should ask such direct questions here.
Last question sir, once one becomes devoid of kama sanna, even if it is for a moment, for him, does satipatthana bhumi become accessible here and now for that moment?
Yes. Life cannot be sustained in such a world. Without even black and white, there would be nothing to see. That is why Paticca Samuppada creates a ‘colorful world’ for those who crave such a world. The world is created by ‘mental energy’ (same as kammic energy). The only way mental energy can make a ‘colorful world’ is by saññā built into our ‘mental bodies’ or ‘manomaya kaya.’ Mental energy cannot make ‘colored objects’; only ‘colorless suddhāṭṭhaka’ can be created by kammic energy. It can only generate a saññā (perception) of color. That holds for other entities of taste, smell, etc.
So, only way mental energy can make colorful world is through sanna only and not in real!? Hmm.
A living Arahant can see just like anyone else, because they are also born with the ‘distorted saññā.‘ The difference between an Arahant and a puthujjana is in the cetasika generated. Arahant‘s mind would not generate immoral cetasika (raga, dosa, moha) in response to any sensory event. They only experience the sensory inputs without attaching to them: “‘Diṭṭhe Diṭṭhamattaṁ Bhavissati’ – Connection to Saññā .” Even though an Arahant would still generate (pure, undefiled) citta, they have already attained Nibbana, which is defined as “rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo—idaṁ vuccati nibbānan” ti OR “the ending of rāga, ending of anger/hate, and ending of ignorance/delusion is Nibbāna.” See, for example, “Nibbānapañhā Sutta (SN 38.1).” Until the death of the physical body (which is a vipaka), an Arahant would experience the ‘colorful world’ just as anyone else.
So, does arahat exhaust all his karma at death i.e. at parinibbana?
The more I understand these things, the more I realize how difficult it is to glimpse nibbana.
I don’t know if it’s a good idea to post my opinion here… but I also don’t find any contradictions between what I have read on the Pure Dhamma website and what is taught in S.N. Goenka’s courses.
I don’t think what @Lal is saying in the posts above contradicts what S.N. Goenka taught, either. When I first became familiar with the ‘words’ of both Lal Sir and Goenka Guruji—I don’t know why (I attribute it to my puñña kammas)—I immediately felt, and with confidence, that this was the work of someone who has surely realized the truth of the Buddha’s teaching and experienced the true happiness the Buddha speaks of.
Personally, since childhood, I used to read many texts related to the Buddha and Buddhism, including Mahāyāna texts, Vajrayāna texts, and many other versions under the name of Buddhism, and finally the Tipiṭaka suttas and much more. So I became familiar with contradictions in what is presented in the name of the Buddha and his teachings. After many years, I realized that the Tipiṭaka is the ultimate authentic source of what the Buddha taught and is the only real words of the Buddha. Now, whenever I want to hear what the Buddha would say about anything, other than reading suttas from tipitaka, I simply open the Pure Dhamma site. But my next source, in which I have the equal faith, is what Goenka Guruji says on his websites (his words only and not necessarily what his website says).
By the way, I now have faith only in the Tipiṭaka, and no other branch or school of Buddhism, including those I listed above.
The main point I want to make is this: whom S.N. Goenka’s courses intend to teach are people of diverse backgrounds and faiths. What they intend to teach is: There is suffering, there is a cause for it, it is possible to end it, and there is a way to end this suffering. Personally, I would say many newcomers who just want to know what Buddhism is might find it overwhelming to read all the Pure Dhamma posts. To start reading any post, curiosity may be enough—but to continue reading, one really needs at least a certain sense that there is an issue with life (I would say some form of awareness of anicca). Otherwise, the material can be hard to digest. More than that, this website literally has a “Sotāpanna Forum” and sections related to personal realization. We don’t see this on other forums. Only an Ariya who has seen, experienced, or realized Nibbāna can facilitate such things—this I am sure of. That’s why some people on other websites, like ‘SuttaCentral’ and similar forums, find it hard to digest material from Pure Dhamma site.
My opinion is that if one truly knows some form of Buddha Dhamma, they should be able to recognize at least some words of an Ariya being. Of course, this is not always true—as in the case of Venerable Sāriputta, who was unaware that a certain monk was an Arahant while instructing him—so it is not always the case, but it is possible.
What S.N. Goenka intended with his courses was to introduce the Noble Truths to the masses, especially those completely unaware of them with definite consideration of the possibility that people of all faith will attend (and that is the case actually). I don’t think the 10-day course is intended specifically for only Ariya beings (I’m speaking here about the 10 days course and intent behind it and not the technique of Vipassana itself, as that’s a different topic). That’s why I think Lal Sir is saying what he’s saying about it. So, the 10-day course is introductory in most senses, and the teachers there are present mainly to teach that technique—not to teach Buddhism itself. Therefore, most teachers are not necessarily Ariyas, but rather those with much experience in that technique of Vipassana and its results. Off course, its not possible to identify that someone is ariya and someone not, but you know I am talking about the possibility of recognizing the words which are of a flavor of truth, so I hope I am not misunderstood.
Do they teach how to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna?
But me responding to this I think is same as a tortoise who is still bound to this earth trying to say to a bird who knows how to fly that, there is another bird who also flies like you and teaches the way to fly like you do. It is tempting to do that, so here I go, he also kind of teaches the way to enter satipatthana bhumi, or that’s what it seems to me. <br />
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There is another type of advanced/special course named ‘Satipatthana course’ (which is for 7 days only and not 10 days) and only those who have done atleast 3 normal 10 days course and atleast 1 course of ‘serving’ (serving the candidates who came to 10 days course), can attend that course and it is somewhat stricter course. Following is the talk given by S. N. Goenka on 4th day of one of those satipatthana course, this talk seems me to kind of related to entering satipatthana bhumi here and now :——–
Satipatthana Sutta Discourses
by S.N. Goenka
THE FOURTH DAY of the Satipatthana course is over. We continue to recite the Sutta and to try to understand it in relation to the practice.
We are still in kayanupassana. You can start with any of the four fields of kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, or dhammanupassana and with any section of kayanupassana, but as you proceed they intermingle. You have to reach certain important stations. You have to feel the body inside (ajjhattam) and outside (bahiddha), then both inside and outside (ajjhatta-bahiddha). You have to experience arising and passing (samudaya-dhammanupassi viharati, vaya-dhammanupassi viharati) then both together, (samudaya-vaya-dhammanupassi viharati). You have to feel the entire body as a mass of vibrations arising and passing with great rapidity, in the stage of bhanga. Then you reach the stage of body as just body (‘Atthi kayo’ ti), or sensations as just sensations, mind as just mind, or mental contents as just mental contents. There is no identification with it. Then there is the stage of mere awareness (patissati-mattaya) and mere understanding (ñana-mattaya) without any evaluation or reaction.
As you progress and get established in the practice, deep-rooted sankharas come on the surface and are eradicated, provided you are vineyya loke abhijha-domanassam, keeping away from craving and aversion towards mind and matter.
In another discourse, the Buddha gave an illustration:
Sabba kamma jahassa bhikkhuno,
dhunamanassa pure katam rajam.The meditator who does not make new kamma,
combs out old defilements as they arise.When a meditator stops generating all kamma sankharas, (that is, new actions or reactions), the old impurities-pure katam rajam-are combed out. Dhunamanassa means combing or carding cotton, separating every fiber, clearing out all the knots and dirt. This can happen at any stage, whenever you don’t generate a new sankhara, but the very deep-rooted impurities only start coming up after bhanga. If you keep generating sankharas, you keep multiplying your old stock. As long as you refrain from generating any new ones and remain equanimous, layers after layers of sankharas are eradicated.
Dhamma is very kind. Initially very crude sankharas which would result in a very miserable, low order of new life, surface and get eradicated. You are relieved of them:
uppajjitva nirujjhanti, tesam vupasamo sukho
having arisen, when they are extinguished,
their eradication brings happiness.When all the sankharas which would have taken you to a lower field of life are gone, the mind becomes perfectly balanced-fit to transcend the field of mind and matter and gain the first glimpse of nibbana.
This may be for a few moments, seconds or minutes, but on returning to the field of mind and matter the meditator’s behavior pattern is totally changed. A sankhara of the lower fields cannot now be generated. The clan is changed-gotrabhu. The anariyo becomes a sotapanna, ariyo. Today the word ‘aryan’ has lost its meaning and is used for a certain race. In the Buddha’s day ariyo meant a noble person, one who had experienced nibbana. Sotapanna means one who has fallen into the stream, sota. Within seven lives at most such a person is bound to keep working to become an arahant. No power on earth can stop the process.
The work continues in the same way: atapi sampajano satima. Further deep sankharas come on the surface and pass away (uppajjitva nirujjhanti) and a much deeper experience of nibbana results. The meditator returns again to the field of arising and passing, a totally changed person, the stage of sakadagami has been reached. Only one more life is possible in the sensual world. Then again the practice is atapi sampajano satima. Finer impurities, but ones which would still give lives of misery, are now eradicated by this equanimity, and the dip in nibbana is again much deeper. The stage of anagami is experienced. Now the only possible life is not in the sensual field, but in a very high Brahmic plane. As the meditator continues, the finest sankharas-which would give even one life of misery, because they are still within the circle of life and death-are eradicated, and the nibbana of an arahant is experienced, total liberation. It can be in this very life or in future lives, but the practice is the same: atapi sampajano satima.
Satima is with awareness. Sampajano is with wisdom, pañña, of arising and passing, direct experience of bodily sensations. Body alone cannot feel sensations and so mind is involved, but in the body is where they are felt. The Buddha gave an illustration: just as different kinds of winds arise in the sky-warm or cold, fast or slow, dirty or clean-so in the body different kinds of sensations arise and pass away.
In another discourse he said:
Yato ca bhikkhu atapi sampajaññam na rincati,
tato so vedana sabba parijanati pandito.Working ardently, without missing sampajaññam,
a meditator experiences the entire field of vedana and gains wisdom.There are different kinds of vedana whether the sankharas are gross, finer or finest. Sampajaññam day and night is thus the essence of the whole technique.
So vedana pariññaya ditthe dhamme anasavo,
kayassa bheda dhammattho sankhyam nopeti vedagu.“When the entire field of vedana is transcended, Dhamma is understood. Such a person, without impurities (anasava) fully established in Dhamma (dhammattho) knows perfectly the entire field of sensations (vedagu) and does not after death (kayassa bheda) return to this field of sensations.”
This summarizes the whole path to liberation. It is achieved with sampajañña, the wisdom of arising and passing, equanimity with sensations. atapi, working hard, and satima, when it is the awareness of the circus girl, will not alone liberate because sampajañña is essential.
——–
source : https://pariyatti.org/Free-Resources/Articles-and-Excerpts/Satipatthana-Sutta-DiscoursesYes. When I first realized this a few years ago, I was awestruck.
This is the key message the Buddha sought to convey. In those days, one had to first take his word based on faith.
But now we have another confirmation via modern science. Colors, tastes, etc., are not real; they are mind-made perceptions, and that is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
Without realizing this, all living beings attach to those /mind-made pleasures and engage in akusala kamma.That leads to rebirths in the apayas, where most rebirths are. That is the root cuase of suffering!
How amazing it must be to be free from apayas forever! But this seems very very hard to digest. No wonder very few people are ariyas as compared to anariyas… Feels very very sad knowing that.
The following quote is from the post “Cuti and Marana – Related to Bhava and Jāti.”
I went through above post again and those linked suttas as well. It kind of says that, today’s majestic person can or rather inevitably become apayagami tomorrow. It seems even if one is good, one will be forced by the three poisons certainly somehow to take birth in lower realms/places of dangerous suffering. All this can be avoided by and only by following buddha’s teachings! It makes me very happy to know that, it is possible to literally reverse this cycle. But I wonder how all this dhamma is literally free of cost!? It seems like it is actually the hardest to repay debt, that is repaying to the one who guided one or caused one to glimpse nibbana. I read your post about difference between metta bhavana and ariya metta bhavana. Wishing for others to be happy on surface is relatively easy task, but wishing for others to be sotapanna, sakadagami, anagamai, arahant is literally scarily tough task. When I read that difference idk why it felt like it takes ultimate guts to even do ariya metta bhavana and why it is called ariya metta bhavana. Ok one question sir @Lal, you said,
Now, you may have to think through this in detail. It would be impossible to live in a colorless world, let alone being able to enjoy it. It would be as if we didn’t have eyes. This is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
So to live in such world it seems impossible to me. I mean very concept of ‘to live’ doesn’t seem to apply there. If I just suppose for the sake of asking question, so to live in such a world one really needs ultimate wisdom I think, isn’t it? Because if not then it is as good as non-existence or something like that, isn’t it?
And after that you said..
The world of 31 realms and the living beings in them, in ultimate reality, can be described by only rūpa, citta, and cetasika. When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result.
“Things” in the world of 31 realms are described by rupa, which do not possess colors, tastes, etc. The ‘living beings’ have rūpa, citta, cetasika.So for the arahant it is just rupa, Citta and cetasikas and no individual concrete beings around…So nibbana is the result for only arahats after separating from 31 realms right? Is it the case that everyone(puthujana) at the moment of marana or if not marana, atleast at the moment of cuti i.e. end of uppatti bhava, can access this nibbana element but cannot realise that because there are no eyes to see, is that the case? Or putthujana is so unlucky (or so away from truth) that even in the end of uppati bhava doesn’t even have a chance to glimpse at this nibbana element from beyond 31 realms? In other words, even having eyes after marana or the end of uppati bhava would just show him only that which is within 31 realms and not the reality beyond them! Is that the case? :(..what am I missing here?
Let me give the crude, direct answer that I have been trying to avoid because I was not sure whether it could psychologically affect some people.
Sir @Lal, now I understand why you were trying to avoid sharing directly because slightly panicked after reading it especially when you said this….
not even black and white
And this…
For those who enjoy jhāna/samāpatti, there will be no ‘jhānic/samāpatti pleasure.’
But then, it is what it is.
When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result.
Wow, no birth no end. Damn ariyas are super awesome beings who realise these kind of things and yet they remain irreversibly more balanced, happy and ultimately secure as compared to those who don’t realise these things. Such a wonderful thing it is.😎
“..does that mean that we are kind of living in virtual reality like as in game..”
- Yes. That is the ultimate truth (‘paramattha sacca‘ where ‘sacca’ is pronounced ‘sachcha’). Modern science has confirmed that external objects do not have colors (sunlight does not have colors either). The same is true for other ‘sensory pleasures’ too.
- However, one must be careful not to try to give ‘sensual pleasures’ with willpower, as I emphasized above.
- Even a Sotapanna (who has ‘seen the truth of the ‘paramattha sacca‘) will not be able to give up the craving for sensual pleasures until attaining the Anāgāmi stage.
- We have all been ‘immersed in’ sensual pleasures for so long in this rebirth process that it is not easy for many to even consider the fact that ‘paramattha sacca‘ could be true!
So, your description is correct. Keep reading posts related to this issue with an open mind; the concepts will become clear, and at some point, mind will accept them. It cannot be forced.
Respected Sir @Lal I wanted to ask a related thing if you don’t mind. You said :
“..does that mean that we are kind of living in virtual reality like as in game..”
Yes. That is the ultimate truth (‘paramattha sacca‘ where ‘sacca’ is pronounced ‘sachcha’). Modern science has confirmed that external objects do not have colors (sunlight does not have colors either). The same is true for other ‘sensory pleasures’ too.
So if one realises that paramattha sacca or atleast glimpses it, then does this virtual game become slightly easier to play? I mean in regard to paying back debts (not in terms of money but all kinds of debts from many lives from many beings), fulfilling duties, getting hard but important things done, do all these things become slightly easier? Or am I just stretching the analogy. Because I feel like a character in a game but at the same time I also feel like I cannot play this character properly/cannot live properly. Its like this character has its own settings which cause him/myself difficulties. Btw idk if this is necessary or not, but I have experienced only once though, the happiness of metta bhavana, I mean literally…As usual I sat in the morning and while doing that I could feel the spring of happiness filled with immense gratitude inside my heart which was so overwhelmingly blissful that tears started flowing through my eyes from the start of metta bhavana to end of it for that session. It was pinnacle of goosebumps but my hairs were not standing rather it was internal, I couldn’t bear that happiness hence continuous tears during the session. But after session I just felt bad that I couldn’t express this literal happiness of metta bhavana to my parents or anyone else so felt sad and very less capable. I tried to convey it as best as possible, my parents accepted completely what I told but only on the surface..but they definitely did not realise the depth, level of reality and literality in what I experienced. If they would have realized that I don’t think they would remain the same person. If you respond then it’s my luck but if you don’t then I’ll know that I am going in wrong direction. Offcourse I appreciate inputs from others as well.
I may sound rude because my English is not that good. Thank you.
