[Jorg]

Thanks for your detailed response again, Lal. That’s very helpful. It actually led me to a deeper understanding of jhana samapatti.

Ajahn Brahm is from the Thai Forest tradition and this is how he was taught by Ajahn Chah. So it’s not just him. Many Theravidians know of this technique. He describes the step-by-step process in his book I linked to above. The stopping of the breath in the 4th jhana is also clearly stated, which coincides with what I’ve read from the posts here. When they come out of the meditation they can recall what happened. Just not during the meditation. I wonder if that would be possible if it’s a kind of asañña samadhi.

[Jorg]

Thanks for the link Lal. I’ve read the post. Though, my point might have not come across fully. Allow me to use Ajahn Brahm’s own words from his book, found in the link below. This is section: “PART THREE The Landmarks of All Jhana” I bolded the parts I was directly or indirectly referring to:

“No thought, no decision-making, no perception of time. From the
moment of entering a jhana, one will have no control. One will be unable
to give orders as one normally does. The very idea of “what should I do
next” cannot even come up. When the “will” that is controlling vanishes
away, then the “I will” that fashions one’s concept of future also
disappears. The concept of time ceases in Jhana. Within a Jhana, one
cannot decide what to do next. One cannot even decide when to come
out. It is this absolute absence of will and its offspring, time, that give
the jhanas the feature of timeless stability and that lead to jhana states
persisting, sometimes for many blissful hours.

Non-Dual Consciousness. Because of the perfect one-pointedness,
because attention is so fixed, one loses the faculty of perspective with in
Jhana. Comprehension relies on the technique of comparison, relating
this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhana, all that is perceived
is non-dual bliss, unmoving, compelling, not giving any space for the
arising of perspective. It is like that puzzle where one is shown a still
photograph of a well-known object but from an unusual angle, and one
has to guess what it is. It is very difficult to comprehend such an object
when one is unable to turn to over, or move one’s head to look at it this
way and that. When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus
in jhana, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no
comprehension of what is going on! At the time, one will not even know
what jhana one is in. All one knows is great bliss, unmoving,
unchanging, for unknown lengths of time.

Awareness of Bliss that Doesn’t Move. Even though there is no
comprehension within any jhana, due to the lack of perspective, one is
certainly not on a trance. One’s mindfulness is hugely increased to a
level of sharpness that is truly incredible. One is immensely aware.
Only mindfulness doesn’t move. It is frozen. And the stillness of the
super, superpower mindfulness, the perfect one-pointedness of
awareness, makes the jhana experience completely different to anything
one has known before. This is not unconsciousness. It is non-dual
consciousness. All it can know is one thing, and that is timeless bliss
that doesn’t move.
Afterwards, when one has emerged from jhana, such consummate onepointedness of consciousness falls apart. With the weakening of onepointedness, perspective re-emerges and the mind has the agility to move
again. The mind has regained the space needed to compare and
comprehend. Ordinary consciousness has returned.
Having just emerged from a jhana, it is usual practice to look back at
what has happened and review the jhana experience. The jhanas are
such powerful events that they leave an indelible record in one’s memory
store. In fact, one will never forget them as lone as one lives. Thus, they
are easy to recall, with perfect retention of detail, after emerging. It is
through such reviewing right after the event, that one comprehends the
details of what happened in the jhana, and one knows which of the
jhanas it was. Moreover, the data obtained from reviewing a jhana forms
the basis of insight that is Enlightenment itself.
The Five Senses are Fully Shut Off. Another strange quality that
distinguishes jhana from all other experiences is that within jhana all the
five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one
cannot smell, taste nor feel touch. One cannot hear the sound of the
birds, nor a person coughing. Even if there were a thunderclap nearby,
it wouldn’t be heard in a jhana. If someone tapped one on the shoulder,
or picked one up and let one down, in jhana one cannot know this. The
mod in jhana is so completely cut off from these five senses that they
cannot break in.”

Then he shares a story in the same chapter, one of many stories I’ve heard him share:

“A lay disciple once told me how he had “fluked” a deep jhana while
meditating at home. His wife thought he hade died and sent for an
ambulance. He was rushed to hospital in a wail of loud sirens. In the
emergency room, there was no heartbeat registered on the E.C.G., nor
brain activity to be seen by the E.E.G. So the doctor on put defibrillators
on his chest to re-activate his heart. Even though he was being bounced
up and down on the hospital bed through the force of the electric shocks,
he didn’t feel a thing! When he emerged from the jhana in the emergency
room, perfectly all right, he had no knowledge of how he had got there,
nor of ambulances and sirens, nor of body-jerking defibrillators. All that
long time that he was in jhana, he was fully aware, but only of bliss.
This is an example of what is meant by the five senses shutting down
within the experience of jhana.”

Here’s the link to the book:
https://jhana8.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/The-Jhanas-Ajahn-Brahmavamso.pdf

He’s not specifically referring 4th jhana btw. He has clearly stated this happens from the first jhana onward. So my question is, What kind of jhana is this?

[Jorg]

Speaking of jhana, there’s one thing that I can’t get my head around.
Ajahn Brahm speaks a lot on jhana and does jhana retreats. According to him, one loses
(physical) sense contact completely and one stops hearing altogether. When you can hear, you’re not in jhana, he says. (He never mentions words like ariya or anariya btw.)

He has shared many present-day stories on how people stay in jhanas for hours or even days.
also a story from the sutta when a monk got “cremated” in the forest, and was seen later in the village by the people who cremated him because they thought he was dead (so at least fourth jhana I presume).
However, he teaches to get into jhanas via breath.
According to what I’ve learned and my own experiences I’m a bit confused with his statements. So what exactly is it when people are shut off from the world even in the FIRST jhana as he says. Also, I remember him saying that jhana leads to one of four results according to Buddha; sotapanna sakadagami, anagami or arahant.
If he has misunderstood something, that’s one thing, but I would doubt the man is straight out lying in his position. So, again, confused :)
Oh right, AND being in jhana makes you “invincible” as in you can’t really get hurt.

I remember another story btw of a retreat held by a Vietnamese monk who, on day 1, entered jhana and got out at the end of the retreat 8 days or so later, and then apologized for being “absent” to his students.

[Jorg]

Thanks For clarifying Lal.
Interesting. Once things are “set in motion,” Dhamma makes sure that the sotapanna anugami will come in contact with the actual “Sound of Dhamma,” sooner or later.

[Jorg]

Dear Lal,
in #3 of “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala,” you stated:

– “(Waharaka Thero) explains that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanā by an Ariya.”

and

– “However, even if a Sotapanna Anugami does not get to the Sotapanna stage in this life, he/she WILL attain the Sotapanna phala in a future life. A Sotapanna Anugami is a Noble Person and is free of the apāyas; see, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.”

The question that arises is, how is a sotapanna anugami then guaranteed to attain the sotapanna phala? That means he/she is GUARANTEED to get an opportunity to listen to a desana by an ariya somewhere in a future life. Or is something else going on?

[Jorg]

Thanks Christian, on it:)

[Jorg]

Thank you Seng for going through it and for your corrections. I’ll go through it and adjust it accordingly!

[Jorg]

Thanks Christian, that’s awesome!

[Jorg]

Much appreciation, Lal.
If anyone can spot any inconsistencies, or see something that could be clearer (especially description-wise) please do say so!

Presentation-wise, I had one slide that I quickly turned into three, so I’ll deal with that sometime later on. Still open to suggestions, though.

[Jorg]

Thanks Lal, “obsessed” is a better word to describe it, though haha.

After some more reading, I’ve been working on a ppt slide that shows the steps of the PS, incl. the initial attachment via arammana + explanations and examples. It turned out to be quite massive as I’d like to show a few friends who would otherwise not do much reading on their own.

But before I do, I was wondering if you could check it for inconsistencies and see whether my understanding is up to par regarding some of the details.

I could screenshot it and post it here, but the font is tiny so I’m not sure how well that would work. Should I try to post or would it be possible to send it via email?

[Jorg]

Appreciate all the help. While checking the referred thread I came across another post and I also came across a section in “buddha’s worldview” I had for some reason overlooked altogether :-S.

I’ve been reading up on a lot of stuff and, everything (threads, posts, and replies in this thread) has cleared up quite a few things.

There are a few posts I still haven’t read and they might still clear up one thing that’s on my mind.

I’ll finish that first to prevent asking any unnecessary question at this stage.

[Jorg]

Thanks for the directions.
I’ve read those posts and a few others and there are still some questions lingering. Hopefully, you can address these. Any kind of answer/support is very much appreciated!

1. You’ve mentioned sankhara happens in the tanha paccaya upadana, but also in upadana paccaya bhava. What, then, is the reason Buddha said it’s tanha paccaya upadana instead of tanha paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya upadana, upadana paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccayay upadana, etc.?

2. If tanha happens and then we start acting with avija, does that mean two parts of the same cycle are running simultaneously? For example, let’s say tanha paccaya upadana is activated, then we start acting with avija, hence avija paccaya sankhara is initiated at the same time?

3. You said, “We don’t just start acting with avijja without a reason.”
But because there’s avija, there is tanha, so technically it precedes tanha. But here it is meant in a more active/conscious way as in starting the whole cycle then?

4. If a cycle is always initiated with an arammana, why does it start then with avija and not with, let’s say, salayatana?

[Author]

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