[Jorg]

I hadn’t heard of Chinese Agama before so I did a little check.
I found a website where Agama is accessible. http://www.ahanjing.top
Interestingly, it’s linked to Accesstoinsight.org as an English reference（that’s a sign already).
My Chinese is far from good, but it’s good enough to see that, for example, the Chinese translations on sutta central are translated according to anicca = impermanence, anatta = no-self, etc.

I don’t know how to scan through the Agama, besides clicking randomly. But I did find a lot of “impermanence” and “no-self” references (a bit too many to my liking). And I did find passages saying all the aggregates were “impermanent,” not surprisingly.
Aggregates: 色，受，想，行，识
Impermanence: 无常
“No-self:” “无我”

Note that the Chinese on sutta central is traditional Chinese and the website I referred is simplified (for anyone interested).

[Jorg]

That’s a very clear addition in that post you referred to. It can answer some questions one might have as to how that happens.
And funny, I literally just read the post before your edit:)

[Jorg]

Hi Lal,

In one of the comments above you stated:
“(i) Our gati/anusaya remains in the hadaya vatthu, the seat of the mind.”

As I was just rereading the post: Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi) I noticed this sentence at the end:
“Finally, where are these anusaya in “storage”? They are in the kamma bhava, the nāma loka, or the ‘immaterial world.'”

[Jorg]

I said “For a sakadagami and up, is the perception reduced then by the weakening of both the mana cetasika and the avija cetasika as one progresses?”
I meant the perception of a “self.”
But I realize now that all these cetasika must contribute to that perception. As one loses these defilements, one starts seeing the truth of things at a deeper level, hence the weakening of that perception.
Though, avija and mana may have relatively more influence on the sense of a “self.”

[Jorg]

Thank you for the added explanation, Lal.
For a sakadagami and up, is the perception reduced then by the weakening of both the mana cetasika and the avija cetasika as one progresses?

[Jorg]

Considering all the content produced, you’re actually doing an amazing job.
Better than I would have done in the same position:D
I will go through it and check.

[Jorg]

This comment cleared up various issues; Some nagging layers of fog have been dissolved on the path in front of me. Greatly appreciated! 🙏🙏🙏

The site is full of “Retrieving memories via the mana indriya,” but that it’s also responsible for the storage via the same route, I’ve only seen stated here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, obviously, but for sure it’s not stated as abundantly then.

[Jorg]

So there will be a “memory check” only at the start of a citta vithi?
Was I correct about the other points?

[Jorg]

Thanks Lal for your response and links! I’ve reviewed the posts and also thought about it a bit. (Btw, on the mobile, the Abhidhamma section has more posts than the one in the link you provided).

The root of my confusion, had to do with the role of mana indriya. I thought that while the first pancadvara citta ran, the mana indriya is not active. Let me review it again.

Although the cittas and citta vithis follow each other up with unimaginable speed, and each citta (vithi) builds up on the previous one—strengthening/sharpening the image and possible emotions—I just focus on the first one because everything needs to be consistent starting from the first step.

1. Right from the very first citta, when the third cetasika arises (sañña), obviously memory has to get involved otherwise there can’t be any recognition whatsoever.
The mind has to make contact with the nama loka then from the start of the very first pancadvaracitta, because every single memory (and defilement) is there.
That has to be done via the mana indriya as long as our gandhabba is in the physical body. If that statement holds true, then contact with any san gati will also be made as long as there’s a particular gati matching the particular arammana received.

2. For example:
One sees one’s favorite food. The sight is recognized and, immediately after, contact with san gati is also made, resulting in the arising of craving (in the form of raga cetasika).
Although we won’t notice that until few moments have passed—and billion of citta have arisen and passed away by then—the contaminations starts in the first pancadvara citta. Then each subsequent citta will get contaminated further due to natural association.

3. If I’m correct, that first actual contamination happens in the Sampaticchana sequence step of a pancadvara citta. Here one gets bound to the iccha due to san.

4. In the post, Nāma Loka and Rupa Loka – Two Parts of Our World
It’s stated,”…in the same way, memories experienced by the gandhabba “go out” to the viññāṇa dhātu via a “transmitter” in the brain.”
This is a critical piece of information I haven’t seen in any other post before. I think it’s worth adding it to others as well. Anyway, the transmitter must be the mana indriya.

Based on this I have a question. If one citta (referring to a single citta in a citta vithi here) has run, a memory record goes out to the nama loka. The next citta that arises uses that record then to build upon the previous one. That means the mana indriya stores it away and immediately retrieves it again? Can that record stay (in the mind), let’s say “temporarily”, until the citta sequence is completed, at least? If memory can only ever be retrieved in the nama loka (even during the formation of a citta vithi), the mana indriya is basically working non-stop.

[Jorg]

Thanks Lal, I will explore those links.

Yes, it’s indeed become a long thread :D
If I wanna follow up with something worthwhile, I’ll be sure to make a new thread.
Except for this reply then.

[Jorg]

Just to clarify, I mentioned the above for three reasons.
1. I believed it to be relevant to the thread. I have no doubts about the way I am practicing (which is anapanasati and satipatthana the way it is intended and “pajanati” the dhamma) and I have left the vipassana practice behind me quite a while ago now for a good reason.
2. I’m writing a piece on why I stopped the practice and want to make it as comprehensive as I can so that people can make sense of it. All the while learning to understand what the actual dhamma is.
3. I am also personally interested in those particular verses, but I respect Lal’s decision not to address them now.

Regarding the reply above, the practice aims to a point where you can always be aware of sensations, not only during meditation. Again, not something I do myself anymore. I try to be “morally” mindful at ALL times, and immediately correct for any unwanted/immoral passerby.

[Jorg]

Regarding posting long comments: I always use a word processor but it hasn’t seemed to help unfortunately.

To continue the thread:

I will copy-paste Lal’s reply from the other thread as explained in the above two posts:

“Let me state the essence. I will write posts later to explain further.

A. Factors 1 through 6 point to the root causes of dhammā (that bear everything in this world).
–

B. Note that there are ” mundane good dhammā” that lead to “better outcomes in this world like rebirths in Deva and Brahma realms. Those fall under puññābhisaṅkhāra.
– Factors 7 through 10 state that Nibbāna (reached via cultivation of paññā) is better than those “mundane good outcomes” which DO NOT last.

C. Let me expand some of Jorg’s explanations.
(1) “chanda mūlakā sabbe dhammā”
– Here chanda includes rupa raga and arupa raga in addition to kama raga.
(2) – (4) Jorg’s explanations are good.
(5) Here, samādhi means “micchā samādhi“.
(6) Here, sati means “micchā sati“, i.e., the opposite of Sammā Sati. In other words, to focus on sensual, jhanic pleasures, etc.
As I wrote above, factors 7 through 10 state that Nibbāna (reached via cultivation of paññā) is better than those “mundane good outcomes” which DO NOT last.
(7) All cetasika (sobhana and asobhana) lead to the extension of the rebirth process. Only when paññā is optimized at the Arahant stage that one becomes free of all suffering. The rest of the factors need to be addressed that way.
(8) Sāra is “essence” or “good”.
(9) ogadhā is to be “immersed in”.
(10) pariyosānā is to end.
” END QUOTE

Thank you Lal, this has been very helpful. It’s much clearer now, especially the miccha sati and samadhi.

Part 1:
Regarding point number 5 – 9:

5.    kiṁ pamukhā sabbe dhammā? samādhi pamukhā sabbe dhammā.
6.    kiṁ adhipateyyā sabbe dhammā? satādhipateyyā (sati adhipateyyā) sabbe dhammā.
Pamukhā and adhipateyyā are translated (sutta central) as “chief” and “ruler” respectively. Since miccha sati and samdhi is referred to, these meanings still, sort of, fit in (but I’m sure there’s a better description), though the deeper meaning is that they are responsible for the creation of the kamma bija (sabbe dhammā).

7.    kiṁ uttarā sabbe dhammā? paññuttarā (paññā uttarā) sabbe dhammā.
So “Uttara” is “better than” then, but that seems like an understatement. “Incomparably better” seems to be more fitting.

Regarding the next two, I’m slightly confused about the structure of the sentences:
8.    kiṁ sārā sabbe dhammā’ti? vimutti sārā sabbe dhammā’ti.
9.    kiṁ ogadhā sabbe dhammā? amat’ogadhā (amata ogadhā) sabbe dhammā.
If I understand what you said correctly, these sentences mean:
(8) What is the essence that is better than all dhammā? Vimutti is.”
(9) What kind of immersion is/leads to a better (outcome) than all dhammā? Immersion in amata (= Nibbana I assume).”
I’m a bit confused by the structure because the “uttarā” is not present here, unlike number 7 with pañña.

Number 10 speaks for itself. These comments above are all related to this sutta: AN 10.58

—

Part 2:

The other sutta in which “Vedanāsamosaraṇā” is used is AN 9.14.
For any other readers, I posted the below in the other thread.
Lal, could you comment on my interpretations?

It starts here:

It’s very similar to the answers given (except the first two), but the questions are related to “sankappavitakka,” not “dhammā” (kamma bīja).
“Kimārammaṇā, (samiddhi), purisassa saṅkappavitakkā uppajjantī”ti?
“Nāmarūpārammaṇā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti?
Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.
After this, it goes on similarly as the other two suttā, shown in bold (but all related to sankappavitakka):
“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti? Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,” etc.

Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but I assume the question means:
Q: “How do miccha sankappa arise after an arammana has come in contact with the sense doors?”
This should be micchā sankappa because we need to free ourselves of wrong thoughts (Micchā Saṅkappa, Apuññabhisaṅkhāra, etc. ) to reach Nibbana.
A: “They arise due to the expectation created (in the kamma viññāṇa by abhisaṅkhāra), which leads to ‘kamma viññāṇa paccaya nāmarūpa’ (in the Paṭicca Samupādda).”

The next part:
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti? Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.

Sutta central translation:
“Where do they become diversified? In the elements.”
Maybe this is something to do with salayatana. (I’m not sure, I don’t know the words in the question).
Because of namarupa, our senses cannot be used objectively and cannot see things for what they truly are. Elements are not merely elements anymore, they become valuable, and one becomes hopeful and delusional due to this nicca perception.
To finish off, to avoid any gaps surrounding the key phrase “Vedanāsamosaraṇā”:
“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti?
Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,”

I assume this means that our defiled thoughts (miccha sankappa, apuññabhisaṅkhāra, etc.) arise because of samphassa.
Then, we start generating samphassa-ja-vedana, which all lead to more and more of similar defiled thoughts (because of taṇhā). These thoughts/sankappa/saṅkhāra are all dependent upon samphassa-ja-vedana. Without it, they (sankhara) won’t arise. (but that means we need to get rid of avijā first, so that we can stop the “avijā paccaya saṅkhāra” step in PS).
“Coming together,” or “converge,” seems a bit less appropriate in this context. Though, in the end, these saṅkhāra create dhammā and eventually get established (automatically) in the kamma bhava.

Lal’s comment: Jorg had a difficulty of completing the post. So, I added the rest of it, which he sent me by email.

[Jorg]

I have responded to the post above, but I couldn’t post myself and Lal helped me out. Unfortunately, due to my mistake/unclarity, he posted it here:
My sincere apologies.

Lal, I tried to copy the post in the link above and paste it here, but it again gave me the “forbidden” notification.
I just posted a short reply in that thread, so it seems that the length of the post might actually be the problem.
Edit: this post also came through all right so it could indeed be the length. Well, it was a long post after all:)

[Jorg]

Lal was so kind to help me post the lengthy #39496, a few posts up, to which he then responded. These actually belong in the thread: https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/goenkas-vipassana/#post-39484 as it was a response to the posts there.

This is my mistake as I didn’t inform Lal of the specific thread.
My sincere apologies.

[Jorg]

Thank you so much Lal, but I was referring to whether there was a reference for “cittanupassana is not recommended for people who haven’t understood the dhamma,” or something along this line.
I was able to find that “samma sati is needed for anapanasati” quote. I’m sorry for your trouble.

Your posted excerpt does remind me of something however, which leads me to the following question: Do you have any estimation on when you’ll do your next Anapanasati-related -elephant-in-the-room article?

[Author]

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