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Hi Lal,
“When one gets attached to any single material thing, a whole host of mental aggregates get involved around it.”
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“Also, we need to keep in mind that even the rupakkhandha is mental too, in the sense that when we see a rupa, it is instantly added to the memory as a mental impression of that rupa…”I would reckon that the rupakkhandha is akin to the namarupa in the akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles. i.e. namarupa paccaya vinnana, thereby giving rise to our defiled consciousness. If that is the case, is there any distinction between the vinnana in the akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles and the vinnanakkhandha in the case of pancaupadanakkhandha?
Hi Lal,
In this discourse, you mentioned about attachment to the rupakkhandha of the dense body, and the various things that people do to beautify and maintain this highly esteemed possession. There are people who are not of the most narcissistic nature, who do not care much about their looks and body types but are so attached to their worldly knowledge and wisdom that they will do anything to pursue and maintain their goals. Falling short of which, would render them into deep depression and agitation. This lot of people are evident in areas such as philosophy, politics, music, arts and anything that has to do with creativity, artistry and intellectual works. Can we say that these people are actually attached to the other 4 khandhas of feelings, perceptions, sankhara, and consciousness? Seems like attachment to mind works of the mental body can be even more detrimental to the physical body for some. This group of people might not even believe in the concept of a gandhabba let alone rebirth. They merely associate their khandhas with their self in various ways which the Buddha rejected.
Hi Lal,
“A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment.”
So, in this case, does the Sotapanna turn into an Anagami Anugami? It is not mentioned that patigha is still present though. Does an Anagami Anugami dwell in the Suddhāvāsa abodes? Also, can an Anagami attain Arahantship in Suddhāvāsa abodes? Or does the Anagami wear out his kamma vipaka in Suddhāvāsa abodes and enter final Nibbana from there?
Hi Lal,
Agreed that anicca is a property of everything in this world and that Udayavaya is one of Anicca’s characteristics. Regardless of what we think of an object, it is going to change and eventually perish. It is just like 2 houses, one occupied by a puthujjana, and the other occupied by an Arahant. Both houses WOULD NOT because the puthujjana getting so attached to his house and the Arahant not being attached to the house at all, avoid being deteriorated. Both houses WILL still deteriorate at some point of time regardless of what both of them think. Many thanks for emphasising this point. The houses not having a mind of its own, of course will not feel dukkha. I’m sure if they have consciousness, they will be no different from sentient beings, and would be able to experience and voice out their dukkha!
The Universe does not have problems. We do. – Nick Lucid
I like the above one liner from Youtuber Nick Lucid. His science asylum channel is quite interesting. Anyway, he said the universe does not have problems. We human beings do. That’s only half correct based on the observation above. We human beings like to label things as good and bad based on our likes and dislikes. But that does not free up the ‘inherent problems’ with things that we have no craving for. Just like the houses mentioned above.
Hi AKvan,
Interesting observation: “However aniccha, the fact that we cannot maintain anything to our liking, is not a characteristic of the object but a perception we create because of that object. So there has to be someone who sees that object as niccha or aniccha or asubha etc. Without that person seeing it that way there can be no aniccha in that object. So it is we who cultivate that niccha or aniccha perception of an object. Therefore aniccha is not a characteristic (lakkhana) because if it were a characteristic anyone looking at it will see it like that.”
From SN 22.57…
““And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu skilled in seven cases? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation; he understands the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of form.”
It is evident in this sutta that the danger is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta:
“The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on form: this is the gratification in form. That form is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this is the danger in form.”
The last part of the sutta says…
“And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a triple investigator? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates by way of the elements, by way of the sense bases, and by way of dependent origination. It is in such a way that a bhikkhu is a triple investigator.”
Agree with you that Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta is meaningful only when there is an ‘observer’ contemplating the phenomena. As illustrated above, the observer investigates by way of the elements and their derivatives (external phenomena), by way of the sense bases (via 5 khanddhas), and by way of dependent origination (the causal relationship between the first 2 entities).
Hi Lal,
I first learned about these 2 words from a bhante (based on his own course material). So, I’m not sure about the original source. Then, I googled them and found some info.
“There is no vedayita sukha bliss in Nibbána – there is only Santisukha.”
“The state of Cessation of Perception and Feeling is a ‘pleasure, not being felt’ (avedayita-sukha).”
Hi Lal,
In point #2…
“In the same way, it is hard to imagine for a normal human how nirōdha samāpatti (where all thoughts are stopped) can provide happiness.”I came across 2 Pali words: Vedayita-sukha (happiness based on feeling); Avedayita-sukha (happiness without feeling);
I would think Avedayita-sukha is the happiness associated with Parinibbana and nirōdha samāpatti. Is there any mention in the Tipitaka on these 2 words?
In point #9…
“Life is maintained by the kammaja kaya via an active rūpa jivitindriya (not the jivitindriya cētasika).”Thanks for clarifying this point. I have found a source that talks about this rūpa jivitindriya too.
I shall quote from this source…“Both nāma-jīvitindriya and rūpa-jīvitindriya arise at the moment of conception. They simultaneously perish at the moment of decease. Hence death is regarded as the perishing of this jīvitindriya. Immediately after, due to the power of Kamma, another nāma-jīvitindriya arises in the subsequent birth at the moment of conception. Simultaneous with the arising of the one nāma-jīvitindriya there arise three rūpa-jīvitindriyas in the case of a human being.*
Just as a boatman depends on the boat and the boat depends on the boatman, even so jīvitindriya depends on mind and matter, and mind and matter depend on jīvitindriya.”
*[They are the Rūpa-Jīvtindriyas of tho ‘body decad’ (kāyadasaka) ‘sex-decad’ (bhāvadasaka) and ‘seat-decad’ (vatthudasaka). See ch. VI.]
I recalled you have mentioned kāyadasaka, bhāvadasaka, and vatthudasaka in one of your posts before.
In point #12…
“Not all Arahants can get into nirōdha samāpatti. Access to nirōdha samāpatti is NOT by taking Nibbānā as the thought object, but via the 8th jhānā.”In MN 121 a type of concentration called the theme-less concentration is mentioned. Seems like this theme-less concentration is a prelude to nirōdha samāpatti.
Hi all,
Lal has reopened this post for me to post a reference to a sutta.
This sutta might provide some insight to this topic of interest.
“So, friends, it seems that you don’t know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist… you don’t know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-and-now. That being the case, it is not proper for you to assert that, “Whatever a person experiences—pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain—all is caused by what was done in the past.”
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“So I asked them further, ‘Friend Nigaṇṭhas, what do you think: When there is fierce striving, fierce exertion, do you feel fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment? And when there is no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, do you feel no fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment?’“‘Yes, friend…’
“‘… Then it’s not proper for you to assert that, “Whatever a person experiences—pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain—all is caused by what was done in the past.”
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“Suppose that a man is in love with a woman, his mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion. He sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What do you think, monks: As he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing, would sorrow, lamentation, pain, disuffering, and despair arise in him?”“Yes, lord. Why is that? Because he is in love with her, his mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion…”
“Now suppose the thought were to occur to him, ‘I am in love with this woman, my mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion. When I see her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing, then sorrow, lamentation, pain, disuffering, and despair arise within me. Why don’t I abandon my desire and passion for that woman?’ So he abandons his desire and passion for that woman, and afterwards sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What do you think, monks: As he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing, would sorrow, lamentation, pain, disuffering, and despair arise in him?”
“No, lord. Why is that? He is dispassionate toward that woman…”
The last quoted text is similar to Siebe’s example on standing on one leg for a good cause. I’m not saying that there is no cause for bodily and mental torment. But the fact that our sankhara rooted in ignorance is going to cause us grief. No doubt about it. As to whether what we experience here and now is really due to past kamma, we cannot tell for sure.
Seeing our body as a separate entity would cause such a problem…
Not seeing our body as a separate entity will cause other problems.
I think the key is to view our physical and mental bodies as process-selves.
Lal said: Long before one gets to removing asmi mana, one needs to remove the cravings for sense pleasures; in fact, even a Sotapanna (who has removed sakkaya ditthi) has not achieved that…
My understanding and experience tells me that the tell-tale sign of removal of Sakkaya ditthi is that any conversation on worldly stuffs will become burdensome for this person. So much so that one would feel guilty even to talk about them. For example, talking about seemingly harmless stuffs like hobbies, food, holidays, politics etc. This person who has removed sakkaya ditthi does not subscribe to the idea of engaging in these activities anymore, the more he will feel he should never induce such worldly things into others. Even if he is compelled into such conversations, his conscience will take a hit. Now I understand why the Buddha said if the talk is not about Dhamma, it is better to remain noble silence.
Lal said: Micca ditthi can be removed only by learning true dhamma AND by actually practicing (book knowledge is not enough).
Certainly true. I quote from MN.43, a conversation between Venerable Koṭṭhita and Venerable Sariputta…
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
“But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?” “There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, these are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.”
Impermanence gives rise to suffering? If this is true, the reverse logic must also be true: Permanence gives rise to happiness. Take a moment to evaluate the credibility of these 2 statements. Recall back the times when you were down with prolonged illness or some other ordeal which seemed like eternity. Relatively speaking, the duration of our suffering back then appeared to be very long. So much so that we felt as if we were suffering ‘permanently’. Now look back at the statement ‘permanence gives rise to happiness’. How can something that is tormenting us ‘permanently’ give us happiness? Aren’t we hope for a brief moment of ‘impermanence’ to our rescue? So how can impermanence always gives rise to suffering? In this case, impermanence did in fact give rise to happiness when our problems are resolved. Imagine those hell beings and pretas who are suffering for millions of years. The duration of our perceived suffering is NOTHING compared to theirs.
Let us contemplate deeper into the issue of wrong translation of Anicca. When our Buddha was still a Bodhisattva, He spent 6 years undergoing very tough austerity practices which did not bring him any enlightenment. Eventually, the Buddha attained enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. Which implies that everything should be ‘permanent and happy’ the day Buddha attained enlightenment, right?! But wait. Look around us, what do you observe? Traffic is moving, people are ageing and suffering, children are growing up, flora and fauna are arising and perishing…cosmic activities are happening out there in outer space…our own anti-bodies are fighting against harmful bacteria in our bodies to keep us healthy…changes are everywhere. What are all these? Impermanence at work! No one moment is the same. If Anicca implies impermanence, then it does not make sense for the Bodhisattva to have attained enlightenment and became a Buddha. Because no one, absolutely no one including a Buddha, can alter the comic law of impermanence. If a Buddha could do that, the day He attained enlightenment would mean impermanence has to cease. Why? Because He would have control over impermanence to end suffering. What would be a result of this? It would imply that you and me and everyone else in this universe would have become enlightened just like the Buddha! But we all know this is not true. So, what actually went wrong? The only logical and sensible explanation is that Anicca has been wrongly translated to mean impermanence. The Buddha had not, and would not be able to control impermanence, just like any other being.
Hi Lal,
In your latest post, you said “This vicious cycle of “vipāka” leading to new “kammā” (via acting with avijjā), which in turn lead to more “vipāka”, is the process that binds us to the samsāra of endless rebirths…”
I associate our kamma and vipaka to the 2 sides of a coin. The coin, being our 5 khandhas. As long as we exist, we are the coin that has these 2 sides.
This is somewhat related to the other post – Two unbroken streams of consciousness (DN28) where we discussed the meaning of “This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self”. Kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, and mano sankhara rise and pass away rapidly into the past. Once executed, there is no way we can change them. We know that our strong sankhara would create kamma beeja in the mano loka for nature to impart vipaka onto us in future. Thus, I reckon the only logical and right way to view all mental and physical phenomena is to see it as ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. Otherwise, we will be seeing all events with ignorance and perpetually fuel more future existence for ourselves.
Hi Donna,
Maybe you can try doing some paritta chanting. Then, transfer merits to the unseen beings.
From SN 12.37
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.37
“At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, this body is not yours, nor does it belong to others. It is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt.”
