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On second thoughts and after another round of careful reading of y not’s last post, I think that what I last posted could be what he is referring to. This is just me adding my 2 cents worth. :)
y not said: There is an enduring ‘X’ but it is ever-changing, and that up until Parinibbana.
I think it is not like that. I could be wrong of course. When we think of an enduring ‘X’ which is still ever-changing, we risk conceptualising the self-identity as having a permanent core with only its outer aspects or manifestations changing.
It seems to me that we are a beginningless stream of kammic energy, fuelled by ignorance (avijja), craving (tanha) and grasping (upadana). Through patticca samuppada, avijja paccaya sankhara, vinnana, vedana, rupa and maybe sanna (which could be between phassa and vedana). Thus we are made up of the five skhandhas, which is further fuelled by the food we take in (ahara). Even the core (5 skhandhas) is ever-changing. Everything is in flux. We seem to conceptualise a united, fixed core because we somehow link this continuous chain of events in our memories to a single entity.
However, there is probably no need to worry about that. It might become clear once the arahant magga is reached. I could be wrong of course. It seems to be too advanced to grasp for someone who is not yet a sotapanna. I am only thinking about this intellectually of course, and have not verified it through meditation.
Hi y not,
Let me ease Lal’s burden a bit and attempt to answer some of your questions (he has just come back from travelling and may be somewhat depleted of energy :))
y not said: ‘Any other kamma vipaka CAN be overcome by attaining a magga phala (at least the Sotapanna stage)’ -which addresses my question itself. So one can overcome any outcome of a kamma vipaka, any bhava, that may at that moment present itself?… human,deva,rupa, arupa?’
A sotapanna has only managed to overcome apayagami kamma due to overcoming three sanyojanas of sathkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, or one asava (ditthisava). He still has seven sanyojanas and three asavas left (kamasava, bhavasava, and avijjasava). Kama sava will keep him bound to kama loka (or the realms of sensual desire), while bhavasava will keep him bound to the rupa and arupalokas, I think. So he will still experience various kamma vipaka, as long as those are not of the apayagami sort, and he will undergo rebirths as long as bhavasava and avijjasava remain.
Even an arahant or a fully enlightened Buddha experiences kamma vipaka, up until right before parinibbana, even if they have discarded all asavas and sanyojanas.
It seems to me that the Buddha frequently provided advice or established new rules of conduct on certain more unusual matters only after certain disputes, complaints or questions were brought to his attention, e.g. establishing the rule about bikkhhus being allowed to look after their parents after it was brought to the Buddha’s attention about a bikkhhu giving food from his alms-bowl to his beggar parents.
If the Buddha were alive today and posed this question, I wonder how He would exhort his followers to act?
Of course, I think the Buddha did say that other than a Buddha, the complete laws of kamma could not be entirely comprehended by anyone else.
Yet it would be good for most of us to listen to how ariyas in this forum would handle such situations. We should be able to look towards them as exemplars of moral behaviour, as they are immune to committing anantariya kamma.
I believe with their advice, we would be made wiser. This would be really important in an age where technology has become so much more advanced since the time of Gotama Buddha, which did not have any life-support technologies, I think, to prolong the lives of those severely ill or supposedly ‘brain-dead’.
y not said: ‘Here I am reminded of the instance where Angulimala had killed a thousand people, yet still attained Arahanthood.’
Although Angulimala had killed a thousand people, yet even that was in no way as potent as an anantariya kamma. Buddha himself personally travelled to stop Angulimala from killing his mother which is an anantariya kamma. If Buddha had not intervened in a timely manner, I think Angulimala would most probably not be able to attain arahanthood after killing his mother, as his mind would be too agitated to realize the fruit and path of arahanthood, and he would be destined for niraya (though out of compassion for those who have committed anantariya akusala kamma in this life, I very much hope that they can do something to lessen any negative results).
So potent is the effect of anantariya kamma that we need to find out as much about it as we can, in my opinion.
Hi,
Embodied said: If one perpetrates a misdeed whilst being aware of Buddha Dhamma,then the kammic debt will be heavier ?
From what I have learnt here, if one commits akusala kamma that is not anantariya, its impact will be lessened if one is aware of Buddha Dharma, specifically being aware that the act one is committing is akusala and will bring bad results. This is due to the javana citta of the perpetrator being weaker as a result of a greater reluctance to carry out the act (as they are aware of the consequences), and as such the kammic effects would not be as negative.
This also works the other way with kusala kamma, I think. If one commits a kusala kamma while knowing Buddha Dharma, specifically that the act one is committing is kusala and will bring good results, its vipaka would be increased due to a greater enthusiasm to carry out the act.
However, I am not sure that the vipaka of anantariya akusala kamma can be lessened by one knowing the Buddha Dharma, as such kamma are extremely weighty.
Does anyone have any further comments on this?
On the flip side, could the listeners of the recorded desanas and chantings start to develop aversion towards these holy teachings and chantings, especially if they were utterly devoted to other religions? Would they then start the transition to a hell bhava, despite these recorded sounds ironically having the potential to help them?
Thank you very much, Embodied and y not!
From your clues, I found out from one of Lal’s posts that Indriya here refers to the panca indriya, or the dominant characteristics and capabilities (gathi) of beings. There are five: sati, samadhi, panna, saddha and viriya. As there are different languages used in this forum (Sinhalese, Pali, etc.), shaddha should correspond to saddha, and pragna should correspond to prajna or panna, I think.
However, is there anyone who can elaborate on why viriya types contemplate better on anicca, saddha types on dukkha, and panna types on anatta? This is important to me as I am wondering how best to contemplate on anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Thank you very much in advance for any kind help or advice you can provide.
Are any of the characteristics more easily comprehended than the others?
Akvan stated ‘Yes. Based on the different gati and the development of each person’s indriya, they will be able to comprehend one aspect easier than the other. A person with a developed viriya indriya will be able to comprehend anicca, shadda will comprehend dukka and pragna will comprehend anatta easier. However this is just a general idea. It may differ from person to person.’
The above is very interesting. However, they are very new to me. What are viriya, shadda and pragna indriya?
Very importantly as well, thank you very much to all those above who had helped to answer my questions.
Thank you very much once again to those who have contributed to this thread and helped me to understand more about punna kamma. It was a great pleasure to learn from you.
Hi Uyap, if I am not wrong, having micca ditthi will not directly cause one to be reborn in the apayas. However, it could be a precursor to one committing dasa akusala and that could possibly bring about rebirth in the apayas.
Using paticca samuppada to illustrate this further (here I may need Lal’s or Akvan’s or other forumner’s help to correct any errors), micca ditthi due to avijja paccaya (or causes) sankhara, which could be mano sankhara (unconscious or conscious thoughts which are not yet voiced out in one’s mind), vaci sankhara (conscious thoughts voiced out in one’s mind as inner speech or outer speech spoken aloud) or kaya sankhara (bodily actions). These sankara could be akusala.
Akusala sankhara paccaya vinnana, which are defiled states of mindset. Examples of vinnana caused by micca ditthi would be greedy, lustful or hateful states of mind due to the belief that there is no rebirth and one must enjoy one’s life to the fullest before it comes to an end. Any one who gets in the way of sensual enjoyment would cause one to generate hateful thoughts towards the person.
Vinnana paccaya sankhara, which in this case would be vaci sankhara or kaya sankhara, as it would have been deliberated upon and would no longer arise so automatically like some mano sankhara. These sankhara can further paccaya vinnana (to strengthen those defiled states of mind and asavas and gathis), or they can paccaya avijja, and the being becomes even more steeped in ignorance.
Furthermore, the later links of patticca samuppada could be put into motion, and namarupa, salyatana, samphassa, vedana, tanha, upadana, bhava, jati, decay and passing away would happen inevitably unless stopped at some opportune moments by mindfulness
Thus someone with micca ditthi would continue to have a tendency towards harbouring micca ditthi, and may be reborn in the human realm or the apayas, or even the deva realms depending upon one’s gathi. For example, someone who does not believe in rebirth may still have a generous and loving nature and predominantly do those deeds, and be reborn in the deva realms upon passing away. However, those devas with micca ditthi would eventually have to be reborn in the human realms or apayas in future, due to akusala or kusala kamma they had committed in past lives. In the human realm, they may encounter conditions that paccaya akusala kamma being generated in their lives, and thus they may be reborn in the apayas thereafter.
Thus it is good for even non-Buddhists to maintain an open mindset to ideas like rebirth and kamma vipakka, even if they are firm believers of their own religions. Even non-Buddhists should still practise sila to keep themselves out of trouble with the law, and to maintain harmonious relations with those around them, so as to enjoy as pleasant a life as they can manage.
In time to come, their minds may start to experience niramisa sukkha and they may start to slowly but truly come to believe more and more in some of the tenets of Buddhism, as they would have come to experience as such in their lives. Buddhism is after all a very practical teaching, and can be verified empirically with one’s six senses and personal experience at a basic level, once one stops resisting Buddhist beliefs.
Even then, they should be aware of the viparinama nature of their lives, and how truly helpless they can be when unexpected calamities or misfortunes strike (anatta).
Thanks to Seng Kiat, Lal and Akvan for your very helpful replies. No offence meant to Embodied, but your comments seem more confusing than helpful, so I am not sure if it would be appropriate, meaningful or wise to thank you for your comment. So instead I would just thank you for any sincere, kind intentions you may have for helping me.
I have gained a deeper understanding. It is probably far more helpful to devote oneself more to dana, sila and bhavana. There is always merit to be cultivated somewhere. Perhaps one should not worry too much about which path one is on, or whether one is even on any path at all, since probably only a fully enlightened Buddha will know.
Thanks again to Lal, for welcoming me to this forum, and generally making this such a conducive place for discussions and learning.
