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Lal,
I understand that tanha may not necessarily lead to upadana if the being is aware of what is going on and decides not to engage in vaci sankhara about the object of one’s tanha. However, suppose that the being is either unaware of, or chooses not to obstruct tanha, so that it smoothly leads to upadana without much hindrance.
In such a case, do my questions above still hold true? I.e. Tanha paccaya vinnana and tanha paccaya rupa (assuming upadana is there in both cases)?
I have also read somewhere that vinnana can occur three times in one PS cycle: as vinnana, or as one of the sub-factors of phassa (e.g. when cakkhu vinnana arises due to phassa between vanna rupa and cakkhu indriya), or as upadana (I am not very sure how to explain this connection though). Unfortunately I cannot locate the commentary anymore, so maybe we can ignore it if it arouses more questions than answers.
NuanceOfSuchness, thank you very much for sharing your experiences during your practice with us, even as it was used to add more details in your questions.
I have enjoyed having a new participant in this forum, sharing jhanic and meditative experiences with us, which frankly to me would be out of my league at least for the foreseeable future.
Would you be so kind and helpful as to act as a kind of teacher to me, while I sincerely hope that my questions may help you even if only for a bit?
First of all, I think Lal has mentioned somewhere that lobha, dosa and moha are gradually reduced and eventually eliminated as one gains insight into anicca, dukkha and anatta.
You mentioned that you perceived the insignificance and insubstantiality of dhammas. This seems to be what anatta is about.
If I may ask, after that experience, do you feel less attached to sense pleasures and/or less repulsed by phenomena that normally seems unattractive or unpleasant?
What about internal dhammas? Do you find yourself being less attached to notions of an unchanging, substantial self? If you go deeper, do you realize experientially that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are insubstantial, ever changing processes that can undergo unexpected change and dissolution, which offer no real refuge from dukkha?
What if you stayed with these observations and realizations a while longer and more frequently in your practice? Would it deepen the quality of your practice as well as your daily life?
I eagerly wait to learn from you about your progress, for such things interest me greatly and I would be glad to be of whatever little help I can provide, assuming that I am helpful at all.
y not,
I realized that I had overlooked thanking you for your help when you suggested that I could click under Sybe’s profile to locate his post in the past that I had been referring to.
I had tried doing that before your suggestion, but it seemed to no avail. Nevertheless, your helpful gesture is still much appreciated. Thank you very much for your kind help. You have also been helpful in other instances.
May you attain Nibbana speedily!
May I also add that I think that there are two levels at which we can give up or reduce our craving for existence — the ultimate level, in which we eradicate bhavasava to become Arahants and the mundane level, in which we decide to undertake the path to Nibbana, after being somewhat convinced of the superior state that Nibbana is, even if it means the ending of the form of existence that we are intimately familiar with.
We would be embarking on the path away from the conditioned to the Unconditioned, in the latter case.
Siebe,
I think The Buddha compared the Parinibbana of an Arahant to the extinguishing of a flame, where it ceases to exist, and it would also be meaningless for us to say where it is going.
Please be very honest here: Do you fear becoming just like the fate of the extinguished flame once you attain Nibbana?
Is that why you are desperately albeit subtly trying to justify to yourself that there is an unchanging element that continues to exist after the attainment of Nibbana? That there is something lasting and stable to be found in a living being? That you can somehow exist as a silent and uninvolved observer (after attaining Nibbana) to witness or experience whatever goes on in the sansaric world, much like an observer watching a movie which depicts life, yet is basically not involved in whatever goes on in the plot of the movie?
You do not like the fact that there will be no more silent, uninvolved observer after the attainment of Nibbana?
Maybe there are others who think that we will just meld into Nibbana, yet continue to exist unconditionally. For me, I think that existence will cease once we attain Nibbana. Whichever the case is, it will not matter much once we attain Nibbana, for there would be no dukkha for it to even matter.
Do not be afraid of attaining Nibbana, even if it means giving up that which you desperately cherish — your deep-seated craving for existence. For you do not realize, just like me and most of the rest of us, that the enjoyments and pleasures of this world are just sugar and honey coated on the sharp, hurting edges of a dagger, which would surely hurt us sooner or later once we try to savour too much of it.
Although at the moment I cannot and do not realize Nibbana, yet I cannot explain why I have such deep faith, reverence and love for The Buddha. I do not even think I am a Sotapanna Anugami yet. Yet when I think about the tenets of other religions, I find myself unable to have faith in them. I would have it no other way, except to believe in Buddhism. That is why I am trying to persuade you to believe in Buddhism.
Try letting go of your craving for existence and control, and see what happens from there. The Buddha is immeasurably wise; He must have realized that Nibbana in whatever form it is, would be infinitely better than struggling along in sansara, no matter how pleasurable its traps and addictions are.
Perhaps you do not agree with my intuition and beliefs about why you are asking these questions. That is fine too, as long as I hope it triggered some deeper contemplation on your part, to aid you along in your spiritual journey.
Nibbana is not to be feared; please embrace it!
Siebe,
In one of the suttas, I think Rev Ananda remarked to The Buddha that paticca samuppada seemed hard to understand, but really it was actually quite clear to see and understand. The Buddha then corrected Ananda, saying that just as paticca samuppada seemed hard to understand, it was in actuality hard to see and understand too.
The Buddha had also remarked that ‘one who sees paticca samuppada sees the Dhamma, and one who sees the Dhamma sees paticca samuppada’.
If that is so, then the Dhamma is not easy to see and understand at all.
Maybe what you have seen is actually just the surface layer of it. You could have failed to penetrate to its deeper meanings, thus you have come to something of an impasse in your practice. You may just have a mistaken perception of having understood the core of Buddhadhamma. I do not wish to dampen your spirits, but this could very well be a possibility. This is why sometimes it can take many lifetimes of concentrated study and practice before one is ready to see the ultimate truth.
Perhaps you have some miccha ditthi that you have been subconsciously clinging onto, as you fear losing control of your own worldview should you let them go. You do not have to believe everything The Buddha says for a start. You can simply just be openly neutral to these ideas, and not reject them outright. Promise me that you would do that. I hope it would do you a world of good.
I sincerely wish you peace and progress in your search for happiness.
Siebe,
I read one of your earlier posts about how you can understand intellectually about Buddhadhamma, but you experience emotional difficulties such as having a fear of losing control. Unfortunately I can no longer locate that post for further reference, so do correct me if I am wrong.
In my opinion, you can start by thinking about the bad consequences of continually harbouring such emotions (such as how you will be badly stressed and may commit dasa akusala just so as to regain control, or in order to curb that fear), and the good consequences of just letting them go (such as how much relieved you may feel, and how it may become easier and easier over time with repeated practise to just simply let go).
You can start step by step. For example, if you fear losing control of your money and possessions, you can donate some money to a charity, or give a dollar or two to a homeless man in the streets. Start small. Just think of it as investing in your future happiness if that helps. See how that makes you feel. Do you feel happier already for doing a moral act? Slightly less anxious about losing control?
What if you fear losing control of your relationships? The next time someone says something angry to you, can you give in just a bit more if you believe that doing so would only benefit the situation and not make it worse? Notice how that makes you feel?
Start little by little and slowly build up to more, if you feel like it. On days you can’t do it, don’t reprimand yourself but make a mental note to do it again the next day, so as to build up good habits. It may take time, perhaps even lots of time, but do persevere. In doing so, you would be cultivating sati and improving your gati bit by bit. All that is really worthwhile.
I hope this helps you, Siebe.
y not: Thanks for pointing out the link to Lal.
Lal: Thanks for your explanation once again. It is clearer now.
Thanks Lal for your thoughts.
It seems to me that we have to strive hard to stop attachment from doing dasa akusala and cultivating bad gathi at first, and then strive hard to do dasa kusala and cultivate good gathi.
As beings’ asavas weaken and are eradicated, eventually they even come to realize the futility of being attached to doing good (for even kusala/punna kamma brings with it vipaka that has viparinama nature). Doing good just comes to them naturally, without prompting, and they do it without even a subtle bit of craving for rewards when they achieve Arahanthood. I guess this is the bodily part of what is meant by giving up attachment to the Buddhadhamma in order to attain Nibbana.
This is a potentially confusing issue for me, but I will try to explain to the best of my ability what I meant before, and what I mean now. If my views are in error, please help me to correct my ignorance.
Before, I had indeed thought that a distinction should be made between 1) the Buddhadhamma in its absolute sense and scope, and 2) a sentient being’s knowledge of it. But now I do not think it is necessary.
Whether it is 1) or 2) as above, it is still anatta. In my opinion, as long as it applies to material or mental phenomena in infinite space or time or consciousness, it is still subject to conditions.
For example, the links in paticca samuppada (which is the ultimate dhamma niyama) can operate only under suitable conditions, and cease to work for one when one escapes the conditioned to the unconditioned Nibbana.
Anything that is bound to conditioned materiality or mentality cannot be atta, because it is subject to unexpected change (viparinama) while it is functioning or existing.
Even if it seems to exist forever, it cannot be said to be atta, for it would be of no essence and would not be able to release us from suffering due to its inherent instability. This also applies to Buddhadhamma, when one has reached the Anagami stage, and would have to give up attachment to it to attain Nibbana.
I hope this gives a clearer picture of my thoughts.
Lal:
In your reply to me about what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, did you mean that in your view only Sotapanna Anugamis are referred to in the following case (and not anariyas):
“Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to… states of woe.
If that is so, I have made a mistake, and I also hope readers will take note of it, especially Upekkha100, since I have replied to him in error that anariyas were being referred to.
Thank you in advance once again for putting in the effort to clarify with me.
Upekkha100:
I am glad that you are striving hard and have a ready list of wishes/determinations when doing kusala/punna kamma.
May you attain Nibbana speedily, and have no need to become a Brahma to do so if that is what you prefer.
May I also add that in the same post, Lal mentioned that
akasa is not merely ’empty space’. I am not sure what else it could mean then?Hope this is not a premature question, as Lal did mention that it would be discussed later.
By the way, y not, I left out that I fully agree with you that we need to strive diligently when the conditions happen to be just right. (Since I started typing the previous post more than an hour ago, I thought better of editing it, and just added another post.)
Hi my friend y not! It is good to see your post again!
You wrote: The human bhavas one lives through outside of a Buddha sasana, without ‘the Dhamma in circulation’, or without any possibility of access to it, even during a Buddha sasana, does away with the value of a human bhava. That will be the case with most, even now. One is left to one’s own devices, as high as those may be, contemplating for instance, the implications of eternity, infinity, even perhaps to getting the fleeting idea from the material world all around as analogy,that all phenomena, even mental ones ,must have causes as well as results. But there is no way one could discover by oneself all that a Buddha reveals out of his once-in-a (or so many)- kappas Purity of Mind: the 31 realms, the 4 Noble truths, Tilakkhana,PS ,the intricate details in Abhidhamma and so on.
The human bhava/realm is a pivotal realm, in which beings have the most power to change their destinies, especially during a Buddha Sasana. However, even outside of a Buddha Sasana, it is true too, though to a lesser extent.
I state the above, having read that beings in the apayas have very little power to effect changes in their destinies, and think that deva and brahma beings also have little opportunities to do meritorious deeds or to develop compassion, as they encounter very little suffering in their realms.
Outside of a Buddha Sasana, in the human realm, there could be righteous people who could be from other religions, or who live moral lives, as a result of having developed good gati. They have the opportunity to develop their paramitas, waiting for a future Buddha to come along.
Then there are other moral individuals who can continue to develop the fertile ground to fulfill their aspirations made during any prior Buddha Sasanas. They, too, await a future Buddha.
Hence it is important to cultivate good knowledge of Buddhadhamma, develop good gati as well as to make aspirations during a Buddha Sasana to attain Nibbana , with or without corresponding conditions attached. For example, when Sariputta and Maha Moggallana many aeons ago, at the time of the Buddha Anomadassi, were born as the brahman youth Sarada and landowner Sirivaddhaka, they made the aspiration for Chief Discipleship, and eventually became the Chief Disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha.
Then there are the Paccekabuddhas, who realize Nibbana solely through their own efforts, but are unable teach the Dhamma. They realize their ultimate goal outside of a Buddha Sasana.
So, even outside of a Buddha Sasana, the human bhava has its own value too, though it is of course still anatta.
