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The reason why I could not solve it is that I didn’t understand what the question was asking. Therefore, I approached this topic to find some connections between distorted sañña belonging to uppatti bhavanga and the mechanism of the information transfer system from physical body to manomaya kaya. I only thought about sañña as a form, not as a content like mother sañña, chocolate sañña or anicca sañña. The explanation is enough to know it for me.
And while solving this problem, I learned that the sanna can be analyzed into form and content.
For example, I understand sañña as below. The three general types of content of sañña.
First is the value(the usage of mathematics or physics) of something, like the shape value(round, squared, etc), sound value(high tone, low voice, etc.), and so on.
Second is recognition of something. Using the first type of sanna, one can distinguish things like ‘this is a car, that is a rose‘. So naming or chunking of information is within sanna’s work.
Third is the value(worth) of something. Like anicca sañña or nicca sañña. This type of sañña is related with the way one deals with the first and second type of sañña, but not the content of them.
The sanna we should cultivate is the third type. Distorted sañña is only about the first and second type. We have to do nothing about them. But we only have to cultivate anicca sañña. This is why arahant do things without defilement even if they still have distorted sañña.
The only important content of sañña is the third type. So we try to question to find out what is the best way to value something correctly. That is the whole purpose of vipassana bhavana.
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Umm.. the baby has no sakkaya ditthi outwardly but sakkaya ditthi anusaya. So even if there are no sakkaya and sakkaya ditthi in the baby’s mind, the baby is still satta. Because they still have nicca sanna about the samsara.
Maybe the manasikara cetasika is something with it. To activate sanna, the memory loading process is needed. But the baby has no experience to load. Therefore, there is no sakkaya, and sakkaya ditthi.
So the initial experience of lifetime is important. Because it has a lot of effect on the baby’s early impression of the world. Is this topic related to psychoanalysis? Because I’ve had a familiar ring about this content.
I think it is because that the baby’s anusaya was not triggered by any arammana. Khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo, which is the stage of jati, was done. But āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho not yet. The conscious will about arammana did not work, so sakkaya ditthi did not come up the baby’s mind.
OK. So the paccaya can include not only whether a situation that has appropriate context is but also whether contamination of the mind is. Therefore, the paccaya in the ‘samphassa paccaya samphassa-jā-vedanā’ step is the certain types of anusaya or sangati corresponding to the given ārammaṇa. Is it okay to understand like this?
The new post was astonishingly good! I felt how profound Paticca Samuppada was. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! And it also served as an opportunity to reflect on my shortcomings. Now I see my understanding of PS is not enough to apply it directly to Abhidhamma analysis. As it is, continuing to study the Abhidhamma seems very likely to misunderstand the concept. So instead of temporarily stopping to study Abhidhamma, I will peruse the new three series: Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā), Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind, and Sensory Experience – A Deeper Analysis. I’m going to take the time to read them. Currently, a meaningful question about those posts is likely only possible after reading at least 4~5 upcoming posts. More pieces are needed to accept a whole picture with this high level of thoroughness and detail.
On another subject, there was Hojan’s further explanation about kusala kamma. He commented as follows. The energy of kusala kamma should be considered as the energy that removes anusaya and stops rebirth. So we should not think of it in the same way that we deal with the energy of akusala mula kamma(both papa kamma and punna kamma) which causes a new rebirth. Only sekha can generate kusala kamma by kusala mula sankhara in Kusala mula PS. So, javana citta CAN include both “vinnana” which has the energy of akusala mula PS, and “kusala mula vinnana” which has the energy of kusala mula PS. The higher the level of maggaphala, the lighter the energy strength of kusala kamma. Therefore, when one attains Arahant, the energy becomes zero. It is called “kiriya citta”.
For the reasons given above, it is not meaningful to me yet whether javana citta could describe kusala kamma or not. But it requires a strict definition of javana citta, so I think it’s an important issue for other people who study Abhidhamma.
Now I can see I have little knowledge of Citta Vithi and Abhidhamma. I didn’t know that Tadarammana citta could be replaced with Bhavanga citta before.
–According to #44223, Lal said:
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
- At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
- The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
- Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives) starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- I just realized something that I need to look into. Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life. That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. Can that be due to mano sankhara? I will look into that.
- It is time to rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts. A lot of information needs to be added to make it clear and consistent.
A few months ago, I read it in the forum and reasoned two things.
A. Is there a mechanism like place value in citta vithi?
ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ T T
If so, mano sankhara can be all of those places. (_ _ _ _ _ _ _)
Vaci sankhara can be from the 3rd place. (X X _ _ _ _ _)
And kaya sankhara can be from the 5th place. (X X X X _ _ _)
B. If the A is true, could the logic of place value also apply in the case of kiriya citta?
ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ B B
If so, those cittas which come after the votthapana citta could be grouped together as ‘reaction term‘.
And cittas before the votthapana citta also could be grouped together as ‘input term‘ because they only have mano sankhara.
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This is why I am struggling to understand the recent revision.
According to it, the input term is generated by Avyakata PS. But I don’t understand how can one do stuff like walk down the stair (purana kamma) by only mano sankhara. Because mano sankhara is just only experiencing something, not acting.
Thus it’s clear that my analysis(input and reaction) is wrong. Purana kamma is completed before the votthapana citta so that it can be done to act by using those cittas: AB BC BU PD CV Sam San. Then the previous explanation of citta vithi now contradicts the purana kamma concept. If all vipaka citta can have only mano sankhara, there are no vitakka and vicara cetasika in those citta. i.e. vaci sankhara can not arise.
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I don’t think that I have a general knowledge enough about this topic to ask a proper question. So I’m afraid I may tire you out of continuing to ask meaninglessly.
Let me explain what I understand, I’ll ask questions in the middle of writing it.
The discussion of citta vithi deals with very subtle context, so we should beware of making correspond to events of everyday life in haste. There is an infinite gap of the unit of time between citta vithi level analogy and phenomena that we observe in our daily life. We should remember that citta vithi is an extremely microscopic event.
According to the new figure, the given form of citta vithi can present the flow from Avyakata PS to Akusala mula PS. There is a new system of explanation, which is deep and detailed, that gives me a new analytic method and other insights. Based on votthapana citta, before cittas are related to purana kamma, and after are related to nava kamma. Purana kamma is the initial kamma without javana citta so it can not have more than a certain level of kammic energy. Therefore, it can not make any extension of samsara. On the other hand, nava kamma has javana citta so it makes kammic energy which can make an extension of samsara. It also can reinforce existing sangati further, and make kamma bhava which can bring vipaka back in the future.
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Q1. Could purana kamma have some minor kammic energy because of existing sangati?
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Q2. What is the citta vithi only a purana kamma arises? Does it fall under one of the two below? Or does neither?
(a). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V B B B B B B B T T -> Q3
(b). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V K K K K K K K T T -> Q4
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Q3. If purana kamma is only related to Avyakata PS, then the citta vithi (a) progresses by only Avyakata PS without Akusala mula PS?
But I think that the purana kamma arises by (a) is nonsense. Because seven cittas(AB BC BU PD CV Sam San) are all mano sankhara. None of those can have vitakka or vicara. So they can not be vaci sankhara. But thinking about changing the subway doesn’t seem like nava kamma. Thus, if the answer to Q2 is (a), there are two main possible cases that I see. The first is that there is a third type of kamma, which is neither the nava kamma nor the puruna kamma, which can explain it. The second is there is some error in the way of description currently given.
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Q4. If purana kamma is only related to Avyakata PS, then the citta vithi (b) progresses by only Avyakata PS without Akusala mula PS?
In this case, I am curious about whether non-Arahant can make kiriya citta. I heard the current interpretation of Abhidhamma in traditional Theravada teaches that only Arahant can make kiriya citta. Is it also contamination of the late commentary?
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Let me rearrange what I understand. This may be an error because it involves my own reasoning without reading Lal’s explanation of the upcoming post yet. If there is an error here, please point it out.
(a). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V B B B B B B B T T
(b). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V K K K K K K K T T
(c). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V J J J J J J J T T
All citta vithi describes an event in mind on a very detailed level.
The case of (a) describes the process in daily life that we just pass by many visual objects as soon as we experience them. We don’t really respond to them.
The case of (b) describes when we look at a visual object and do something, but it only acts in a neutral way. Like cleaning a blackboard or turning off a light. (purana kamma)
The case of (c) describes when we look at a visual object, attach it and generate kamma that can bring vipaka in the future. This case applies to apunna and punna abhisankhara. (nava kamma)
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About #3, Lal said that a kusala kamma cannot be described by the above picture. In my opinion, it seems reasonable because javana citta can only be abhisankhara. So kusala kamma can never be done by javana citta. I guess that there is a different type of citta vithi unlike above, which can present kusala kamma properly.
And I have something to tell you about this topic. Mr. Hojan asked me to write the following in English. He expressed concern about deleting posts of kusala PS. He thinks there is no problem with the current explanations of Kusala PS.
He understands as follows.
The six root causes(lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha) can be distinguished into two groups: lokiya and lokuttara. Of course, the lobha, dosa, and moha are only lokiya. Those cause the papa kamma.
The lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha cause punna kamma and akusala kamma(in the meaning of NOT kusala kamma in kusala PS).
Therefore, lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha is just a low level of lobha, dosa, and moha actually.
So lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha can correspond to raga, patigha, and avijja.
In the same way, the lokuttara alobha can be considered as lokuttara raga. Of course, the lokuttara alobha, adosa, and amoha cause kusala kamma.
So he thinks that the javana citta can present making kusala kamma because it’s consistent with the definition of that concept. (arising with raga, dosa, or moha)
I would like to approach Hojan’s thoughts carefully. I am reviewing whether the above interpretation of root causes is a somewhat too expansive understanding of the context of the concept. I’d like you to explain how should I understand it.
I’ve read all the recent posts. Those deal with deeper analysis. I think this kind of approach is quite effective. Also, people who already have a certain level of understanding will get it and make a lot of progress. I could feel that Ven. Lal wrote it very thoughtfully. I appreciate Lal’s efforts in delivering Dhamma. At this point, I just realized it might be too late to introduce what I have done. With the wisdom of hindsight, it was so important for me to proceed with others instead of trying to do everything on my own because there was a limit to the amount of work I could bear. If only I had known that earlier. From now on, I will share my work progress more often.
What has been done so far
I want to tell everyone in the forum how I’ve been so far. Since last year, I’ve been working hard on constructing a Compact Dhamma. In early March of this year, I thought that I finally completed it. However, whenever I thought I was on the verge of last completion to show it to everyone, I found out that the system I created was not a simple form for people to understand, even though Compact Dhamma’s purpose was to provide straightforward explanations for beginners.
Foolishly, every time I met the same matter, I considered it caused by the fact that I had not organized/systemized enough of my explanation yet. So, I cope with it by starting everything from scratch and creating new explanations again and again. I kept setting up a new axiom and proving or demonstrating everything one by one, even basic ones. For this work, I had to study many different areas like advanced mathematics, philosophy of mind, etc, to get some valuable ideas. Sadly, now I have an entirely logical and meticulous system, but no one can understand it because it is too hard.
Though I was able to get a deeper understanding of Dhamma, I couldn’t make any tangible outcomes. Not long ago, I looked back on all my efforts to find out some clues. I remember me at the beginning of this work. At that time, I was interested in two things: (i) using visuals to get across the message and (ii) giving a thorough systemic explanation to get a general survey of it.
I planned a graphic novel and video explaining Dhamma. Shortly, it fell through because I found I was surprisingly bad at drawing. I couldn’t draw even a stick figure. Video making was more difficult. To make a video of fine quality, I had to spend two years just learning the technique. After all, I chose to give up.
Soon, I moved on to another thing. I was starting to formulate a system of Dhamma in Korean so that Korean people could think about it in their native language. This task was not easy either because I always had in mind to share it with everyone in the Forum when it was completed. But translation into English was very difficult for me. I use just one word to say a given concept in Korean. But in English, a lot of sentences are needed. Because there is no concept like 원리 in English. There were a lot of cases like that. I realized that it’s tremendous what Ven. Lal has done, as I was doing it.
So, I decided to set up a system in Korean first and think about how to express it in English later. Then, I became trapped in a spiral of restarting, as I wrote above. That is the main reason why I couldn’t ask questions often in the forum. Thankfully, formulating work has made a lot of progress. I’ll talk about it in detail later.
Literacy and Dhamma
Those trials and errors discouraged me greatly, but they also allowed me to ask many good questions: How can I help people walk the Noble path? Where should I start explaining? How can I explain advanced topics easily? What is a perfect teaching sequence of Dhamma? What is most important in Buddha Dhamma? And now, I can see all the questions converge on one subject: “How to paraphrase Dhamma.”
I was doing it all the time, but I didn’t know exactly what it was. What I was about to do was paraphrase Dhamma so that more people could access it easily. So, I hope we can have some deep discussions about how to teach Dhamma together because it is not only a matter of Dhamma but also a matter of teaching. I think what we’ve been overlooking is that literacy is much more important than we thought in learning and teaching Dhamma.
Literacy is more than the ability to read and write texts. It includes the ability to find what are meaningful questions about a particular topic, to distinguish them from not, to put together information and sum up the meaning, and to conclude by oneself. The attainment of the Sotapanna stage means one can do what I just said without anyone’s help.
Let me explain it with an example. Let’s say John here. He wants to travel to Japan, but he doesn’t know any Japanese. John is not a learning-like person, so he figured out other ways to travel rather than learn Japanese. He decided to buy a very large and expensive book. On one page of the book, English sentences that he wants to speak are written. Japanese sentences corresponding to them are written on the other page. Thanks to the book, John will have a good trip to Japan. But no one will think that John has a lingual knowledge of Japanese, even himself! He could not speak Japanese, not even a word, without the book. If he prepares for the Japanese test, he should study Japanese until he doesn’t need the book to talk in Japanese.
It’s easy for us to see that it is the right purpose to learn something. I saw people apply it to other subjects well, but for some reason, especially when learning Dhamma, they often could not apply it in the same way. Many people who believe that they are trying to live with Dhamma, are doing things that have nothing to do with Dhamma. They just learn how to get used to reading and writing with Pali words, and how to put Pali words into Korean sentences instead of easy words in everyday life. And the more they become good at it, the more they believe they have a better understanding of Buddha Dhamma than before. They follow words, not meaning. They said, ‘We need to live by dhammavinaya’ accustomedly, but only read Tipitaka without understanding, just like in John’s case.
I’m not saying it to blame anyone else. And I don’t believe these people do it because they don’t want to follow Buddha’s teachings either. I’m just describing what really happens to face up to the problem and come up with a solution. I DO believe if we don’t take appropriate measures to the problem of literacy seriously, Dhamma will be distorted again much sooner than we expect.
Any person who learned Dhamma properly should be able to think and choose on their own in their life and ultimately become an Arahant. If someone is learning in a way that doesn’t meet any of it, he/she is making an effort that has nothing to do with Dhamma. We should keep it in mind whether you are learning or teaching. And I don’t think Ven. Lal didn’t point it out. In fact, he has consistently emphasized it.
Surprisingly, we already know a very simple answer to why the whole problem repeatedly arises: Because it is HARD to get critical thinking skills. It is hard to grasp Dhamma concepts truly. In samsara, not knowing something is more natural than knowing something. However, it doesn’t mean we can’t do anything here.
Core Problem and Solution
Let’s come back to the problem that we’re facing now. I was completely mistaken about it before. I thought people had difficulty reading the Pure Dhamma Website because there were too many Pali words in the posts. However, it has nothing to do with using Pali words in posts. The core problem is highly related to the fact that critical thinking skill is not easy to cultivate.
In my opinion, people make wrong efforts because they find it challenging to figure two things out: (a) the meaning of a given Dhamma concept trying to convey, and (b) the meaning of what one understands Dhamma concepts. These things strengthen each other again and again. So I think we(or I) need to start with the most basic level (like what is a worldview, and what is the meaning of learning a worldview) so people don’t get lost in a flood of concepts.
Of course, it is a very laborious task. But I believe we can make it because I’ve already made it.
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It’s too late (4:30 AM), so I need to go to sleep and later back. I think I can post the rest tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
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I’ve never read those words like purana kamma or nava kamma in the suttas before. (If you don’t mind, could you give me a Tipitaka reference for those words?)
Lal’s answer gave me a lot of things, which are completely different from the previous understanding I had of citta vithi. So before I ask some questions about them, I think we need a process to update information to make things go smoothly. I’m writing it. I think it will be quite long. Please excuse me for keeping you waiting.
I apologize for my mistake. I think I have a bad habit of omitting too much in communication.
The reason why I think #5 should be revised is that the sentence “The kusala-mūla PS process describes how one can accumulate new “good kamma” that will eventually help us attain Nibbāna by following the Noble Path.” sounds like new kamma bhava are generated through kusala mula PS.
Especially, if one reads it in Korean translation, the meaning becomes very unclear. So I think it needs to be revised.
(i) Only akusala-mula PS processes generate kammic energy.
(ii) Kusala-mula PS processes do not create new kammic energies. They only help remove defilements (i.e., wrong views, perceptions) AND cultivate panna (wisdom or knowledge about how PS processes operate.)
They make the point clear. I appreciate your service. I’m also worried that what I am doing is just nitpicking and has no useful purpose.
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Rereading the second post, I found I wrote it in a very closed manner. I was trying to say that Avyakata PS could also have a namarupa.
Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa
12. Without going into this complex process, only the mindset of the person is changed based on the contact (phassa) of the ārammana with the gati of the individual.
- We note here that there are no “nāmarūpa” involved here, but just “nāma“. This is a deeper point, but the generation of “nāmarūpa” involves javana citta which actually performs kamma. In this vipāka cycle, no kamma is done by the mind; the mind just matches the “picture” that it received against one’s gati, and automatically recognizes if it is an object that one likes/dislikes.
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In #37674
Lal said:
1. It(Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga) describes in detail the 16 steps for an akusala mula PS. The description starts in section 2. Abhidhammabhājanīya.
– It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
– That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.2. Then there are four cycles (catukka) within each of those. That is how it becomes 16 cycles!
– That analysis takes up most of the rest of the section.
– So, it provides that VERY DETAILED analysis ONLY for the akusala-mula PS.3. The point is that for Kusala-mula PS, it describes only the first of the 16 cycles!
– That is why it has only “nama”: “..viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ.”
– The other steps ending with:..viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatanaṁ” are NOT explained again, because they proceed similarly to the case of Akusala-mula PS.–
I think it is probably possible that the “viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ” step of avyākata PS is the same as Kusala mula PS. If it is, the expression of vibhanga “viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ” does not mean that there is no nāmarūpa in avyākata PS.
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#1 Thus, this type of “nāmarupa” is NOT associated with avijjā and is NOT the same “nāmarupa” that appears in “viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupa” in Paṭicca Samuppāda. We will discuss that type of nāmarupa in the next post.
Finally, considering the above explanation in the recently written post, we can draw the following conclusions. The “vinnana paccaya namarupa” step can be analyzed in many ways. In particular, the namarupa of akusala/kusala PS and avyakata PS are very different and should be distinguished. But nevertheless, ALL PS can have namarupa.
Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa
#5. All PS processes can be broadly divided into three categories:
- What we will discuss in this post is how past kamma vipāka bring in sense inputs via avyākata (avyākruta) PS process, and also automatically generate manō saṅkhāra.
- Then akusala-mūla PS processes may contribute to generating new kamma that extends the rebirth process. These also start within seconds, but as mentioned above, we can catch and stop them if we are mindful (Satipaṭṭhāna/Ānapāna).
- The kusala-mūla PS process describes how one can accumulate new “good kamma” that will eventually help us attain Nibbāna by following the Noble Path. If the kamma vipāka generated such a “good PS” process, we should cultivate those. That is also part of Satipaṭṭhāna/Ānapāna.
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But in #37657
Tobias asked: “Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma?”
No. The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
– But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava, as you wrote in the later (last) comment.–
Also, in #37646 Tobias said:
We should remind ourselves that kusala kamma is neither dark nor bright with neither-dark-nor-bright results, it is kamma that leads to the destruction of defilements. Thus kusala kamma will not add to kamma bhava.
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So, I think #5 should be revised.
