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Dosakkhayo wrote: “That description of namarupa pariccheda ñana belongs to the visuddhimagga.”
- No. Visuddhimagga is not a good resource: “Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga – A Focused Analysis“
- None of my posts ever refer to Visuddhimagga for information!
What I was trying to say is that SIXTEEN TYPES OF INSIGHT KNOWLEDGE (VIPASSANA NANA) IN THERAVADA BUDDHISM is based on Visuddhimagga. I think I wrote it misleadingly. I’m sorry.
That description of namarupa pariccheda ñana belongs to the visuddhimagga. You may want to read this post; Kamma Viññāṇa and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñāṇa
OK. I agree with the importance of getting basics before advanced knowledge. Please keep going by what you seem good.
It seems far from what TripleGemStudent is trying to ask, but I wonder what each of these three words means: satta loka, okasa loka, and sankhara loka. I only saw them in the footnote of Nikaya text in Korean translations, but it gave me too little information. I would like to know the meaning of those words. Further, what kind of picture would I get if I drew a Ben diagram of these three concepts? And can these concepts be expressed using pancakkhandha or sankhata? Or can they be explained more easily without doing it those way?
The 7.30 AM EST (New York, USA) would be equivalent to 9:30 PM KST (Seoul, Korea). I’m not sure if I can attend. Either way, I’ll contact you here when it’s decided.
The reason why I could not solve it is that I didn’t understand what the question was asking. Therefore, I approached this topic to find some connections between distorted sañña belonging to uppatti bhavanga and the mechanism of the information transfer system from physical body to manomaya kaya. I only thought about sañña as a form, not as a content like mother sañña, chocolate sañña or anicca sañña. The explanation is enough to know it for me.
And while solving this problem, I learned that the sanna can be analyzed into form and content.
For example, I understand sañña as below. The three general types of content of sañña.
First is the value(the usage of mathematics or physics) of something, like the shape value(round, squared, etc), sound value(high tone, low voice, etc.), and so on.
Second is recognition of something. Using the first type of sanna, one can distinguish things like ‘this is a car, that is a rose‘. So naming or chunking of information is within sanna’s work.
Third is the value(worth) of something. Like anicca sañña or nicca sañña. This type of sañña is related with the way one deals with the first and second type of sañña, but not the content of them.
The sanna we should cultivate is the third type. Distorted sañña is only about the first and second type. We have to do nothing about them. But we only have to cultivate anicca sañña. This is why arahant do things without defilement even if they still have distorted sañña.
The only important content of sañña is the third type. So we try to question to find out what is the best way to value something correctly. That is the whole purpose of vipassana bhavana.
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Umm.. the baby has no sakkaya ditthi outwardly but sakkaya ditthi anusaya. So even if there are no sakkaya and sakkaya ditthi in the baby’s mind, the baby is still satta. Because they still have nicca sanna about the samsara.
Maybe the manasikara cetasika is something with it. To activate sanna, the memory loading process is needed. But the baby has no experience to load. Therefore, there is no sakkaya, and sakkaya ditthi.
So the initial experience of lifetime is important. Because it has a lot of effect on the baby’s early impression of the world. Is this topic related to psychoanalysis? Because I’ve had a familiar ring about this content.
I think it is because that the baby’s anusaya was not triggered by any arammana. Khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo, which is the stage of jati, was done. But āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho not yet. The conscious will about arammana did not work, so sakkaya ditthi did not come up the baby’s mind.
OK. So the paccaya can include not only whether a situation that has appropriate context is but also whether contamination of the mind is. Therefore, the paccaya in the ‘samphassa paccaya samphassa-jā-vedanā’ step is the certain types of anusaya or sangati corresponding to the given ārammaṇa. Is it okay to understand like this?
The new post was astonishingly good! I felt how profound Paticca Samuppada was. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! And it also served as an opportunity to reflect on my shortcomings. Now I see my understanding of PS is not enough to apply it directly to Abhidhamma analysis. As it is, continuing to study the Abhidhamma seems very likely to misunderstand the concept. So instead of temporarily stopping to study Abhidhamma, I will peruse the new three series: Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā), Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind, and Sensory Experience – A Deeper Analysis. I’m going to take the time to read them. Currently, a meaningful question about those posts is likely only possible after reading at least 4~5 upcoming posts. More pieces are needed to accept a whole picture with this high level of thoroughness and detail.
On another subject, there was Hojan’s further explanation about kusala kamma. He commented as follows. The energy of kusala kamma should be considered as the energy that removes anusaya and stops rebirth. So we should not think of it in the same way that we deal with the energy of akusala mula kamma(both papa kamma and punna kamma) which causes a new rebirth. Only sekha can generate kusala kamma by kusala mula sankhara in Kusala mula PS. So, javana citta CAN include both “vinnana” which has the energy of akusala mula PS, and “kusala mula vinnana” which has the energy of kusala mula PS. The higher the level of maggaphala, the lighter the energy strength of kusala kamma. Therefore, when one attains Arahant, the energy becomes zero. It is called “kiriya citta”.
For the reasons given above, it is not meaningful to me yet whether javana citta could describe kusala kamma or not. But it requires a strict definition of javana citta, so I think it’s an important issue for other people who study Abhidhamma.
Now I can see I have little knowledge of Citta Vithi and Abhidhamma. I didn’t know that Tadarammana citta could be replaced with Bhavanga citta before.
–According to #44223, Lal said:
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
- At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
- The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
- Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives) starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- I just realized something that I need to look into. Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life. That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. Can that be due to mano sankhara? I will look into that.
- It is time to rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts. A lot of information needs to be added to make it clear and consistent.
A few months ago, I read it in the forum and reasoned two things.
A. Is there a mechanism like place value in citta vithi?
ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ T T
If so, mano sankhara can be all of those places. (_ _ _ _ _ _ _)
Vaci sankhara can be from the 3rd place. (X X _ _ _ _ _)
And kaya sankhara can be from the 5th place. (X X X X _ _ _)
B. If the A is true, could the logic of place value also apply in the case of kiriya citta?
ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ B B
If so, those cittas which come after the votthapana citta could be grouped together as ‘reaction term‘.
And cittas before the votthapana citta also could be grouped together as ‘input term‘ because they only have mano sankhara.
–
This is why I am struggling to understand the recent revision.
According to it, the input term is generated by Avyakata PS. But I don’t understand how can one do stuff like walk down the stair (purana kamma) by only mano sankhara. Because mano sankhara is just only experiencing something, not acting.
Thus it’s clear that my analysis(input and reaction) is wrong. Purana kamma is completed before the votthapana citta so that it can be done to act by using those cittas: AB BC BU PD CV Sam San. Then the previous explanation of citta vithi now contradicts the purana kamma concept. If all vipaka citta can have only mano sankhara, there are no vitakka and vicara cetasika in those citta. i.e. vaci sankhara can not arise.
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I don’t think that I have a general knowledge enough about this topic to ask a proper question. So I’m afraid I may tire you out of continuing to ask meaninglessly.
Let me explain what I understand, I’ll ask questions in the middle of writing it.
The discussion of citta vithi deals with very subtle context, so we should beware of making correspond to events of everyday life in haste. There is an infinite gap of the unit of time between citta vithi level analogy and phenomena that we observe in our daily life. We should remember that citta vithi is an extremely microscopic event.
According to the new figure, the given form of citta vithi can present the flow from Avyakata PS to Akusala mula PS. There is a new system of explanation, which is deep and detailed, that gives me a new analytic method and other insights. Based on votthapana citta, before cittas are related to purana kamma, and after are related to nava kamma. Purana kamma is the initial kamma without javana citta so it can not have more than a certain level of kammic energy. Therefore, it can not make any extension of samsara. On the other hand, nava kamma has javana citta so it makes kammic energy which can make an extension of samsara. It also can reinforce existing sangati further, and make kamma bhava which can bring vipaka back in the future.
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Q1. Could purana kamma have some minor kammic energy because of existing sangati?
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Q2. What is the citta vithi only a purana kamma arises? Does it fall under one of the two below? Or does neither?
(a). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V B B B B B B B T T -> Q3
(b). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V K K K K K K K T T -> Q4
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Q3. If purana kamma is only related to Avyakata PS, then the citta vithi (a) progresses by only Avyakata PS without Akusala mula PS?
But I think that the purana kamma arises by (a) is nonsense. Because seven cittas(AB BC BU PD CV Sam San) are all mano sankhara. None of those can have vitakka or vicara. So they can not be vaci sankhara. But thinking about changing the subway doesn’t seem like nava kamma. Thus, if the answer to Q2 is (a), there are two main possible cases that I see. The first is that there is a third type of kamma, which is neither the nava kamma nor the puruna kamma, which can explain it. The second is there is some error in the way of description currently given.
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Q4. If purana kamma is only related to Avyakata PS, then the citta vithi (b) progresses by only Avyakata PS without Akusala mula PS?
In this case, I am curious about whether non-Arahant can make kiriya citta. I heard the current interpretation of Abhidhamma in traditional Theravada teaches that only Arahant can make kiriya citta. Is it also contamination of the late commentary?
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Let me rearrange what I understand. This may be an error because it involves my own reasoning without reading Lal’s explanation of the upcoming post yet. If there is an error here, please point it out.
(a). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V B B B B B B B T T
(b). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V K K K K K K K T T
(c). AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V J J J J J J J T T
All citta vithi describes an event in mind on a very detailed level.
The case of (a) describes the process in daily life that we just pass by many visual objects as soon as we experience them. We don’t really respond to them.
The case of (b) describes when we look at a visual object and do something, but it only acts in a neutral way. Like cleaning a blackboard or turning off a light. (purana kamma)
The case of (c) describes when we look at a visual object, attach it and generate kamma that can bring vipaka in the future. This case applies to apunna and punna abhisankhara. (nava kamma)
–
About #3, Lal said that a kusala kamma cannot be described by the above picture. In my opinion, it seems reasonable because javana citta can only be abhisankhara. So kusala kamma can never be done by javana citta. I guess that there is a different type of citta vithi unlike above, which can present kusala kamma properly.
And I have something to tell you about this topic. Mr. Hojan asked me to write the following in English. He expressed concern about deleting posts of kusala PS. He thinks there is no problem with the current explanations of Kusala PS.
He understands as follows.
The six root causes(lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha) can be distinguished into two groups: lokiya and lokuttara. Of course, the lobha, dosa, and moha are only lokiya. Those cause the papa kamma.
The lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha cause punna kamma and akusala kamma(in the meaning of NOT kusala kamma in kusala PS).
Therefore, lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha is just a low level of lobha, dosa, and moha actually.
So lokiya alobha, adosa, and amoha can correspond to raga, patigha, and avijja.
In the same way, the lokuttara alobha can be considered as lokuttara raga. Of course, the lokuttara alobha, adosa, and amoha cause kusala kamma.
So he thinks that the javana citta can present making kusala kamma because it’s consistent with the definition of that concept. (arising with raga, dosa, or moha)
I would like to approach Hojan’s thoughts carefully. I am reviewing whether the above interpretation of root causes is a somewhat too expansive understanding of the context of the concept. I’d like you to explain how should I understand it.
