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@lagrade – Yes, generally everybody gets tired sometimes of life and self-manipulation can ease out your psyche that “there is someone” etc. but this is something that makes you more “sleepy” of life. I would say the coping mechanism of religion is not bad in the sense if someone gives up on life or copes with religious mechanism via Dhamma understanding human life is very rare so it’s better to believe false things and keep going as you have a bigger chance to either get into Dhamma or just be a good person and get a better rebirth. There are some nuances in life where it’s not black and white but Dhamma explains everything to the extent we can understand as humans
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Also, the most important fact I would be looking for what is true, logical, and can be tested/understood – only Buddhism offers that on that level
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1) After realizing Buddhism is not a religion but more like Mathematics but about our existential dilemma and personal meditative experiences that Buddhism explained.
2) I tried probably every school there is – I even got initiated into esoteric streams of “Buddhism” but realized they are far from what Buddha taught. Dhamma is something you realize – imagine you are an adult who still believes Santa exists, once you realize it doesn’t you will see what is true and what is not, it’s pretty much the same with real Dhamma, non-Dhamma “Buddhism” lives in different preassumptions about “Santa” but because Santa does not exist they can not be true. (It’s just a metaphor that some people may relate who believed in Santa and then they had a “realization” that is just a story)
3) Confidence comes from realization as I mentioned above, once you learn 2+2 is 4 you can not be cheated or confused when somebody gives you 3 apples and tells is it’s 4 you obviously will see through it. Seeing Dhamma is seeing life in this way – there is no more confusion about what is what.
4) Reading, and watching discourses that lead to realization and meditation in layman terms but in Dhamma terms – 8 fold Path that you may read about it on this site
(ex-Christian here too)
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I probably used more than 100 objects in my practice (variations of the same objects often) – one needs to find an object that works with your mind’s quality. Also, I forgot to add that an ascetic lifestyle is important, you pretty much need to have a disciplined morality. No sense of pleasure of any kind, no bad things, and pretty much cut off from the world besides things you need/must do. If you try to attain jhana without actually having half to half a year without a solid base of discipline you will be wasting time unless you have high rebirth (still need to do the same to progress). I can not speak about Arupa much because many imposters would make claims – if they make true claims it would be harder to verify them and if someone has a wrong idea about jhanas and their claims it’s easy to debunk (that’s just my personal thing). I didn’t attain samapatti in any jhana but the majority of the jhanas were without samapatti.
About powers is that in arupa jhanas you feel god-like, it feels like you can do anything but because of the nature of your experience, you are not bothered to even do stuff like that because of certain factors you experience and see. In the story of Brahma and Buddha when Brahma thought he reached the peak, it’s clear in that state why.
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For anariya jhana anything can be used as long as you can keep your mind relaxed and focused on an object. Objects that relax you will work better. Formless objects will bypass rupa jhanas and you will start with arupa jhanas.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “If you are using this sound to enter jhana, then it’s going to be super fun, based on how deep you are in jhana or samadhi. The tune and its volume changes. letting you know where you are and where you going.
When it comes to this sound there’s a lot to say.
As for jhanic experiences, the deeper you go the more the body becomes air-like, usually the perception of solidness goes away. Beginning from the foot. In some cases the body seems to get very tall and strange, there are a lot of strange things that happen don’t know where to begin. Usual experiences are a light body and a sense of comeness. Sometimes extreme joy delight. Some time still and quit, free from usual blabbering thoughts.
In higher states extraordinarily balanced mind, doesn’t grab at things like sounds with hate or lust, at that point usually below the neck is not felt. And strangely it seems that the usual feelings in my chest have moved, I remember some sort of energy from my chest going through spin on top of my skull, at the 3 or 4 jhana.
A lot of strange stuff, hearing bell-like sounds in both ears, not from physical objects…”This is not even the first jhana, those experience means your body, mind, and method are immature – this is what a beginner experiences before reaching 1st jhana.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “3 or 4. It’s not that hard to get to this state. I don’t know whay everybody says it’s hard. It’s probably the method. Just sit 2 hours on each setting 1/5 even 1 hour 3 to 4 times a day. Walking works too, I remember being in a very busy city with the sound of cars and all, still my mind was in some deep state. My body was like air while walking and I could hear the nada in the background.”
Please do not delude yourself, this is not even the first jhana – your energy gets affected negatively and weirdly because of the lack of a proper teacher and understanding of the practice. Real jhanas has very fixed experiences, what you explain is a very immature approach to meditation ie. being a rookie and over-estimating yourself. I wish you the best, though.
Lal’s note: Please make sure to indicate whom you are quoting. I entered that above.
As someone who has experience, I need to address certain things to make clear because you need to live through certain things to be able to relate to it.
1) This person is a jhana practitioner (anariya), I can tell just by looking – it’s a skill that is gained through many years of meditation. As army men can recognize army men, as criminals can recognize criminals, at a certain level there is a shift in the way presents himself. The person did not attain Nirodha Samapatti which is exclusive to Arahant, let’s get this first straight. When I attained arupa jhanas I thought it was nirodha too because of the last jhana, this misunderstanding comes from not understanding Dhamma properly. I think at the level of Sotapanna one should realize no matter how high or low the experience is and see thru it for what it is – even if the person lacks theoretical understanding, one sees “this is it” and “this is not it”, people who are anariya yogis/jhana achievers do not have this distinction and can not see the true nature of experience which makes them wrongly call things for what they are. So when such a person attains the highest he can, he thinks of himself as “enlightened” – this happened at the times of Buddha when he was looking for teachers.
2) Not having carvings is different than realizing Nibbana and not having the desire to be reborn. His idea of not having carvings is the result of him having cravings fulfilled by jhana – not being free from them because of understanding Dhamma. It’s very easy to overestimate your position when you have wrong views. If you experience a certain level of sense pleasure and high you will be content for a long time ie. not having carvings in a mundane way but in reality they are still there. This is why is important to have real wisdom, insight, and experience because you easily can misunderstand your own experience without proper realization. That’s why it’s important to have real Dhamma, if you go through key aspects of this site and understand what is said here you will know his experience is anariya experience, still, I’m not downplaying it but it’s not permanent the solution so do not confuse it with Dhamma achievements.
Yes, what I thought in my post was upacara samadhi, forgot about it – thank you.
@cubibobi – yes, when you attain jhana the way you feel as a human does not feel human anymore but you are becoming a different being in that body for that time, but at the same time does not affect your humanity ie. does not lead to delusion like people under influence of drugs. For me personally if not for jhana, I would not believe anything super-natural or related so thankfully I can practice Dhamma with full confidence this confidence is of course now not the result of jhana but Dhamma itself, jhana stopped having any meaning to me personally.
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Hi Zapper, you didn’t experience jhana – first jhana feels like peak sexual pleasure that does not come down and even goes beyond bodily pleasure. I’m saying that some people who have never experienced jhana can relate to something they most likely experienced before. It will feel “holy” or “light” but intense.
What you experience is a calm state of mind that Dhamma influences you in a neutral state, it moves your energy. I’m not sure where to put it in terms of Pali words, if you contemplate Dhamma and chant, and have this neutral energy flow I would say it’s samma samadhi – perfect state to comprehend Dhamma.
Jhanas in most cases are too strong to understand Dhamma unless you can reach 4th jhana which is the most optimal state to contemplate Dhamma. (in jhanas*)
Here is a genuine experience that one can check if one attained jhana or not. Those things are supernatural, it will not be “feeling light and relaxed”, real jhana shakes up the whole worldview especially materialistic. For me, if not for jhana and super-natural experiences I would never believe anything
1) There is a doer or person, I – in Nibbana we can not say there is something but we can not say there is nothing, it’s like a third option that needs to be discovered and experienced. You can not read “there is no self” and act like you have no self, it will be counter-productive.
2) There is neither determinism nor free will, there are certain mechanics and limitations. Some give us the freedom to act, some determine limitations beyond the possibility of choice ie. cause, and effect. The problem is you do not see the full picture but make the judgment based on very little information on suttas without knowing the whole context, mechanics, and how things work.The worst-case scenario is when people read stuff, take it, and make a wall for themselves based on it rather than use it for liberation pathfinder is a great example of making the wall for himself – hopefully more people can see through that, and do not repeat the mistake by walling themselves by assumptions without any real experience of jhanas, Nibbana or wisdom.
For example if you know someone drinks a lot of alcohol you can predict that he will become alcoholic or already is and you can predict related issue/outcome because of that condition. Prediction on the base of attachment is not really determinism and lack of free will, but result of it. At the end of the day it’s neither if you look very closely at it, that there is only cause and effect that can be sometimes predicted but it’s not “determinism” which is hard to see-thru. Same if you see object that is spinning really fast, if you do not know physics of spinning you would say the object does not move or move backwards etc. It’s much complicated than you think it is when it comes to “free will” or “determinism. Assumptions are your “enemy” on the Path.
As Buddha said in one sutta, if there will be “determinism” there would be no Nibbana. (I do not remember exact sutta though)
We need to handle each case differently, depending on the situation.
This is the point I wanted to make, to handle a lot of people with different types of gathi, mindset you need to be beyond average as person in standing, insight, discipline etc. otherwise people will not take you seriously. The best course of action now is to make possibility for those people who want to learn Dhamma have way to learn a real and proper Dhamma with proper understanding, once this is established we can move forward towards people
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We can do so out of compassion. If you see a child about to eat a glass shard will you just stand there?
People who are ignoring Dhamma or not are willing to learn it or practice it, or they are not interested, etc. are not children who are about to eat glass, if you think this way you will pretty much suffer as there is no way to changing the people or the world, being idealistic will cause a lot of harm to yourself. Focus on Nibbana first then you may try to bother with people if you are even willing
And why did the Buddha travel to teach Angulimāla?
Buddha and Arahants ignored many people in suttas for various reasons, you can not compare yourself to Buddha and do not do that or you will be delusional about yourself. Just because you find this site and it has an impact on you – you should not suddenly think that you are “bigger” than you are. This is a mistake that plenty of new people make before realizing the depth of Dhamma and how much there is to understand before opening your mouth to speak about Dhamma.
Sometimes even being an Arahant is not enough to teach Dhamma and some Arahants vary when teaching for various reasons. Sotapanna is not enough to teach on a high level as you will be agitated with people and you will do “dispromotion” for Dhamma as people have always high expectations for “spiritual” people, super unrealistic expectations.
**Keep in mind I’m talking about being like a “missionary” or trying to “save” people through Dhamma. Creating spaces like this site or aiming for people who are “seekers” looking for spiritual liberation is okay.
Yes, what I’m talking is anariya meditations which untrained are pretty much dangerous, a lot of them are beneficial but most of them are waste of time and health
Attaining magga phala — including Arahantship — does not have such specific requirements (at least, I have not seen them).
Being Tihetuka would qualify as specific requirement
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For example if you I drink water to fulfill thirst if you drink too much you may even die from water poisoning, if you drink too small amount you will hurt body too – while most people naturally can drink water without side effects when it comes to meditation is not the case, you doing random things with your mind which governs your body and life function, messing up with with it and randomly “toying” with meditation will hurt you long term. Proper meditation has little or no side effect and only positive results.
