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Thank you. I did get confused a bit.
I better spend my time on something useful. ( I did realize it a bit late, after resting).
I wish all those people who claim to be “Buddhist” reach to proper sources and learn Dhamma – they have motivation and will to learn but it’s all behind misinformation.
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I would say also that many ignorant people (non-Ariyas) have cognitive problems when asking questions treating them as it’s “material objects” to be discovered while it’s their perception so it creates a certain loop-trap of ignorance and lack of self-reflection.
It’s like asking “How do I know that consciousness exists” or “perception “exists while denying it because can not be “seen” yet it is experienced all the time
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: “Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?”When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.
“Then is there no self?”
A second time, the Blessed One was silent.
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.
Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, “Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?”
“Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?”
“No, lord.”
“And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: ‘Does the self I used to have now not exist?'” – Ananda Sutta 44.10
The answer here is straightforward. Buddha did not bother with self- or non-self ideas because they do not directly cause suffering and are not solutions to that suffering. Notions of self and no self are notions of ignorance, to solve ignorance we need to understand real Dhamma that goes to the core of existential problems that are created by ignorance.
So to answer your question “How one does know that true atman/buddha nature does not exist?” – One gets rid of ignorance, knows the true nature of the world, and realizes it can not exist in the real notion of world-mind-perception, until there one will have wrong “idea” that self/buddha nature is nicca, atta and sukha. What “wrongly spiritual” people do in stages – they are disappointed in the material world (yet still clinging to a sense of pleasure) so they move to some kind of religion that correlated with their ignorance and “hopes”, “ideas” (based on ignorance) of future non-material existence, they find psychological solace in that false idea. If they are disappointed with their religion, they try spiritual practices and philosophies like yogas/advaitas/quasi-hindu-“buddhism” like mahayana with the same pattern but here there is a chance for achievement of jhana to which they wrongly cling in ignorance thinking they achieved some kind of freedom from this world but without seeing the full picture and real image of the world ie. real Dhamma they are still trapped in those wrong views.
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What I’m saying is that you trying to understand mathematics without understanding concepts of numbers and arithmetics.
First, you need to read suttas (be wary that a lot of them have the wrong translation) which is the basis of Dhamma to have an overall grasp, you try to understand and think things from a perspective outside the curriculum which will be problematic for yourself and others in the long term.
This is one point of the coin, the other is the never-ending compassion that comes from the Buddha – when one realizes that the suttas have a heart and mind it will open new possibilities to see things. One needs to understand Dhamma can not be approached with only scientific cold-heart calculations but it’s a living tradition that is meant to be experienced through the whole body, mind, and heart. It may sound vague because you need to certain maturity in tradition to experience it. Let’s go through step by step so you can understand from the “outside” perspective but this can never be learned by being “outside”.
And what is the unconditioned?
The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. – Samathavipassanāsutta SN 43.2
There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! Extinguishment is bliss!”
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it. – Nibbānasukhasutta AN 9.34
https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/nibbana-difficult-to-understand – Here is good chunk of information that may help you understand
Then the brahmin Jāṇussoṇī approached the Blessed One … and said to him:
“Master Gotama, it is said: ‘Directly visible nibbāna, directly visible nibbāna.’ In what way is nibbāna directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise?”
(1) “Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when lust is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. It is in this way that nibbāna is directly visible.
(2) “One full of hate, overcome by hatred …
(3) “One who is deluded, overcome by delusion, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when delusion is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. It is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible.
“When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.” – Nibbutasutta AN 3.55
The way to have a mental “image” I will use the example of the flu or cold, everybody experienced being unwell at least once in their lifetime – imagine that you have never really been free from the flu and your condition of existence is like this of flu but it does not become evident unless you start the healing process, so you may feel “okay” you do not feel like “flu” because right now you may feel okayish in terms of being neutral or have a home, sensual pleasure or anything that makes you think “you are fine” but this is relative, if you get sick or you will lost what you have right now it will become more on suffering side. In the same way, what you consider mundane happiness to Nibbana and Dhamma is suffering. Keep in mind that I’m using here mundane examples so you can relate to it from your own experience but when we speak about Nibbana, Dhamma, and experiences in it we speaking about different realities that a person experiences, not just feelings. That’s why while Arahant while in the body has attained Nibbana, still can feel pain.
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. …
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.
There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is a pleasure that is finer than that. Since all feeling is conditioned, and what is conditioned is suffering, the cessation of feeling is reckoned as pleasurable.
It’s possible that wanderers of other religions might say, ‘The ascetic Gotama spoke of the cessation of perception and feeling, and he includes it in happiness. What’s up with that?’
When wanderers of other religions say this, you should say to them, ‘Reverends, when the Buddha describes what’s included in happiness, he’s not just referring to pleasant feeling. The Realized One describes pleasure as included in happiness wherever it is found, and in whatever context.’” – Bahuvedanīyasutta MN59
To use simple logic if your hand is colder than the cup you grab it will be something that you may consider “warm”. If you attain first jhana what was happiness in terms of sensual pleasure is now considered “flu” for your reality of first jhana while in “neutral human state” it was something you would pursue to make yourself “happy”.
One needs to understand that the mind is detached from sansara is Nibbana. The whole confusion about Nibbana stating, something that exists or not happens because the mind automatically tries to connect it to the experiences that are understood through hate, greed, and lust so it’s impossible to understand for someone who is not Ariya:
Then Venerable Kaccānagotta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’. How is right view defined?”
“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.
But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, the concept of non-existence regarding the world does not occur. And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, the concept of existence regarding the world does not occur. – Kaccānagottasutta SN 12.15
As a flame tossed by a gust of wind,” replied the Buddha, “comes to an end and cannot be reckoned;so too, a sage freed from the set of mental phenomena comes to an end and cannot be reckoned.” – Upasīvamāṇavapucchā SNP 5.7
Trying to “think” what Nibbana is is trying to think where the flame goes after being extinguished – you will just create many delusions. This is why Buddha explains what Nibbana is in terms of what it leads to Nibbana which means “if you want to know what it is, you need to walk the Path and have the right view”.
See, this teaching is hard to understand, it confuses the ignorant. There is darkness for the shrouded; blackness for those who don’t see.
But the good are open; like light for those who see. Though close, they do not understand, those fools inexpert in the teaching.
They’re mired in desire to be reborn, flowing along the stream of lives, mired in Māra’s sway: this teaching isn’t easy for them to understand.
Who, apart from the noble ones, is qualified to understand this state? Having rightly understood this state, the undefiled become fully extinguished.” – Dvayatānupassanāsutta SNP 3.12<br />
We are concluding your main topic question:
“One who has come to an end—do they not exist? Or are they free from disease for eternity? Please, sage, answer me clearly, for truly you understand this matter.”
“One who has come to an end cannot be defined,” replied the Buddha. “They have nothing by which others might describe them. When all things have been eradicated, eradicated, too, are all ways of speech.”- Upasīvamāṇavapucchā SNP 5.7
My suggestion would be to stop trying to conceptualize Nibbana because you will only make up a falsified mind story about it. Nibbana will be evident once the right views are realized – in the sense that way to Nibbana will be evident at Sotapanna stage.
At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Varanasi, in the deer park at Isipatana.
Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita came out of retreat, went to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to Sāriputta:
“Reverend Sāriputta, does a realized one still exist after death?”
“Reverend, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”
“Well then, does a realized one no longer exist after death? …
Does a realized one both exist and not exist after death? …
Does a realized one neither exist nor not exist after death?”
“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”
“Reverend, when asked these questions, you say that they have not been declared by the Buddha. What’s the cause, what’s the reason why they have not been declared by the Buddha?”
“Reverend, ‘does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in form.
‘does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness.
This is the cause, this is the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha.” – Paṭhamasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta SN 44.3
All ideas about Nibbana come from “form, feeling, perception, choices (I think it’s the wrong translation), consciousness” that people have this is why we are saying Nibbana can not be understood the way people would like to know it. This situation is like eating cake and having cake at the same time. It’s impossible. You either develop understanding through the right view and the 8-fold Path or you will keep imaging stuff, trying to get that “perfect” image and becoming ever more far away from the Nibbana but yet Buddha assures us about Nibbana:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress. – Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding UD 8.1
In translation we have “dimension” from the word “tadāyatanaṃ” – here Lal would do a better job explaining exactly the word in the context, but ayatana (https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/key-pali-terms-tanha-lobha-dosa-moha/indriya-and-ayatana-big-difference/) is related to mental dimension, not “heaven” or object outside of your mind. I’m not sure if you or someone else (maybe a different topic) said that “Arahant would be a vegetable without consciousness” but in Dhamma, we meant that Arahant’s body and mind function without normally but what is meant here is “without consciousness” is without fabrication that is related to the pancakkhandha (https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/five-aggregates-pancakkhandha/pancakkhandha-or-five-aggregates-a-misinterpreted-concept/) – Arahant does not have pancakkandha but his physical faculties work as in normal person.
I think that pretty much explains everything related to Nibbana, if you have any more questions feel free to ask – I will try to explain.
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That understanding of scientists “that our subjective reality is a fabrication” comes from the fabrication of the sanna itself. It is related to “simulation theory” and other wrong views, so wrong views can not liberate themselves. If you are under the influence of something and become aware of it, it does not mean it brings a solution to the issue because the root problem is still there. You need to be mindful of it with the proper understanding that it comes with Dhamma to be liberated from those views.
To put it simply, just because you are aware of wrong views while having wrong views does not bring a solution. The “root” view needs to be proper so the rest will “grow” from it.
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- Keeping precepts is not enough, it’s good but you need to see “bad” things and why they are bad. Keeping precepts is not a “vow” or “exercise” – it’s the result of insight and wisdom that you gain through understanding Dhamma
- You need to have a properly realized teacher who can speak to you directly about progress and your understanding. It’s very hard to do it on your own. There are videos of certain teachers that explain the true nature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk8UenDhipg
- Read thru the site too
- Meditate using kammasthana (chanting like “Ethan Santhan Ethan Paneethan”)
It takes time to mature because your progress is limited by your own understanding and inborn qualities. You should not give up even if the progress is slow as there is no other way out of Sansara
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I always tell people who go beyond their means of understanding that when it comes to “self” or “no self” and Nibbana they are trying to think of color they don’t know – it’s just impossible to understand that conceptually on the level you would like to understand.
The way it works is that the mind can exist without any attachment or desire, and the existence of that mind makes the “self” vanish. While in the body, the function of the body still stays the same, with new outcomes and experiences that result from Nibbana. Buddha explained it as Nibbana with residue.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.” – “Nibbānadhātu Sutta“
People are scared of the “no self” idea because of misunderstanding and they overthink it because they think about it in terms of an ignorant person. Some people are scared to lose “hate” or their negative emotions. Freedom from self is not practice or philosophy like some people trying to make, but the outcome of Nibbana – you will come to it sooner or later. It’s good to remind yourself of your position and know where you stand with your understanding of Dhamma to not fall into delusion. Some people come to scientists and start to argue about their delusions or ideas without having basic knowledge and understanding of themselves. Curiosity is natural but we must understand that when it’s beyond our understanding we may very quickly become ignorant in our actions without being aware of doing so.
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@lagrade – Yes, generally everybody gets tired sometimes of life and self-manipulation can ease out your psyche that “there is someone” etc. but this is something that makes you more “sleepy” of life. I would say the coping mechanism of religion is not bad in the sense if someone gives up on life or copes with religious mechanism via Dhamma understanding human life is very rare so it’s better to believe false things and keep going as you have a bigger chance to either get into Dhamma or just be a good person and get a better rebirth. There are some nuances in life where it’s not black and white but Dhamma explains everything to the extent we can understand as humans
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Also, the most important fact I would be looking for what is true, logical, and can be tested/understood – only Buddhism offers that on that level
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1) After realizing Buddhism is not a religion but more like Mathematics but about our existential dilemma and personal meditative experiences that Buddhism explained.
2) I tried probably every school there is – I even got initiated into esoteric streams of “Buddhism” but realized they are far from what Buddha taught. Dhamma is something you realize – imagine you are an adult who still believes Santa exists, once you realize it doesn’t you will see what is true and what is not, it’s pretty much the same with real Dhamma, non-Dhamma “Buddhism” lives in different preassumptions about “Santa” but because Santa does not exist they can not be true. (It’s just a metaphor that some people may relate who believed in Santa and then they had a “realization” that is just a story)
3) Confidence comes from realization as I mentioned above, once you learn 2+2 is 4 you can not be cheated or confused when somebody gives you 3 apples and tells is it’s 4 you obviously will see through it. Seeing Dhamma is seeing life in this way – there is no more confusion about what is what.
4) Reading, and watching discourses that lead to realization and meditation in layman terms but in Dhamma terms – 8 fold Path that you may read about it on this site
(ex-Christian here too)
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I probably used more than 100 objects in my practice (variations of the same objects often) – one needs to find an object that works with your mind’s quality. Also, I forgot to add that an ascetic lifestyle is important, you pretty much need to have a disciplined morality. No sense of pleasure of any kind, no bad things, and pretty much cut off from the world besides things you need/must do. If you try to attain jhana without actually having half to half a year without a solid base of discipline you will be wasting time unless you have high rebirth (still need to do the same to progress). I can not speak about Arupa much because many imposters would make claims – if they make true claims it would be harder to verify them and if someone has a wrong idea about jhanas and their claims it’s easy to debunk (that’s just my personal thing). I didn’t attain samapatti in any jhana but the majority of the jhanas were without samapatti.
About powers is that in arupa jhanas you feel god-like, it feels like you can do anything but because of the nature of your experience, you are not bothered to even do stuff like that because of certain factors you experience and see. In the story of Brahma and Buddha when Brahma thought he reached the peak, it’s clear in that state why.
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For anariya jhana anything can be used as long as you can keep your mind relaxed and focused on an object. Objects that relax you will work better. Formless objects will bypass rupa jhanas and you will start with arupa jhanas.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “If you are using this sound to enter jhana, then it’s going to be super fun, based on how deep you are in jhana or samadhi. The tune and its volume changes. letting you know where you are and where you going.
When it comes to this sound there’s a lot to say.
As for jhanic experiences, the deeper you go the more the body becomes air-like, usually the perception of solidness goes away. Beginning from the foot. In some cases the body seems to get very tall and strange, there are a lot of strange things that happen don’t know where to begin. Usual experiences are a light body and a sense of comeness. Sometimes extreme joy delight. Some time still and quit, free from usual blabbering thoughts.
In higher states extraordinarily balanced mind, doesn’t grab at things like sounds with hate or lust, at that point usually below the neck is not felt. And strangely it seems that the usual feelings in my chest have moved, I remember some sort of energy from my chest going through spin on top of my skull, at the 3 or 4 jhana.
A lot of strange stuff, hearing bell-like sounds in both ears, not from physical objects…”This is not even the first jhana, those experience means your body, mind, and method are immature – this is what a beginner experiences before reaching 1st jhana.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “3 or 4. It’s not that hard to get to this state. I don’t know whay everybody says it’s hard. It’s probably the method. Just sit 2 hours on each setting 1/5 even 1 hour 3 to 4 times a day. Walking works too, I remember being in a very busy city with the sound of cars and all, still my mind was in some deep state. My body was like air while walking and I could hear the nada in the background.”
Please do not delude yourself, this is not even the first jhana – your energy gets affected negatively and weirdly because of the lack of a proper teacher and understanding of the practice. Real jhanas has very fixed experiences, what you explain is a very immature approach to meditation ie. being a rookie and over-estimating yourself. I wish you the best, though.
Lal’s note: Please make sure to indicate whom you are quoting. I entered that above.
As someone who has experience, I need to address certain things to make clear because you need to live through certain things to be able to relate to it.
1) This person is a jhana practitioner (anariya), I can tell just by looking – it’s a skill that is gained through many years of meditation. As army men can recognize army men, as criminals can recognize criminals, at a certain level there is a shift in the way presents himself. The person did not attain Nirodha Samapatti which is exclusive to Arahant, let’s get this first straight. When I attained arupa jhanas I thought it was nirodha too because of the last jhana, this misunderstanding comes from not understanding Dhamma properly. I think at the level of Sotapanna one should realize no matter how high or low the experience is and see thru it for what it is – even if the person lacks theoretical understanding, one sees “this is it” and “this is not it”, people who are anariya yogis/jhana achievers do not have this distinction and can not see the true nature of experience which makes them wrongly call things for what they are. So when such a person attains the highest he can, he thinks of himself as “enlightened” – this happened at the times of Buddha when he was looking for teachers.
2) Not having carvings is different than realizing Nibbana and not having the desire to be reborn. His idea of not having carvings is the result of him having cravings fulfilled by jhana – not being free from them because of understanding Dhamma. It’s very easy to overestimate your position when you have wrong views. If you experience a certain level of sense pleasure and high you will be content for a long time ie. not having carvings in a mundane way but in reality they are still there. This is why is important to have real wisdom, insight, and experience because you easily can misunderstand your own experience without proper realization. That’s why it’s important to have real Dhamma, if you go through key aspects of this site and understand what is said here you will know his experience is anariya experience, still, I’m not downplaying it but it’s not permanent the solution so do not confuse it with Dhamma achievements.
Yes, what I thought in my post was upacara samadhi, forgot about it – thank you.
@cubibobi – yes, when you attain jhana the way you feel as a human does not feel human anymore but you are becoming a different being in that body for that time, but at the same time does not affect your humanity ie. does not lead to delusion like people under influence of drugs. For me personally if not for jhana, I would not believe anything super-natural or related so thankfully I can practice Dhamma with full confidence this confidence is of course now not the result of jhana but Dhamma itself, jhana stopped having any meaning to me personally.
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