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I would say it’s natural for ignorance to “think” we are right or feel right in situations when we are wrong. Nothing to feel sorry about, it’s a condition of all people and we’ve all been there. Even in a mundane way, we know when somebody is wrong yet they feel sure about it and then life bites back. It happens the same with a world view.
The translator’s mistake is the other aspect that the English translation speaks about “cow dung” in suttas. I doubt we had cows at that stage of humanity
At the time of Buddha, there were types of writing around the world:
- Clay tablets (Mesopotamia)
- Stone inscriptions (Egypt, Greece)
- Turtle shells and bones (China)
- Papyrus scrolls (Egypt)
- Pottery and ceramics (Various civilizations)
- Bark paper (Mesoamerica)
- Wooden tablets
- Animal skins
- Leaves (in tropical regions)
There are two ways to make a logical conclusion or argument based on what we have:
Whether Buddha didn’t want transmissions in textual form for various reasons (having Ananda with ultra memory or people memorizing as part of Dhamma training, monks obviously could not engage in such things as production materials) for practical reasons.
or having living Ariya is more beneficial for one understanding and Path. (or just both)
In my personal opinion, both are good, second is better for the arguments I provided above – even if we base on simple logic and life experience we would conclude that. Studying just from the books/suttas or sites may not be enough if someone can’t get pointed out in his “field of vision”. Usually, when you study materials, textbooks, or anything you are put into a very narrow field of understanding that you need to conclude a lot on your own and “teach yourself” so to speak to develop understanding. Having someone else can point out your misunderstanding or ignorance on the topic that you may not be aware of using different examples and can show you different angles of thinking that textual forms don’t have on that level or you may not see them. As I said in my understanding both are good but the second is better, I can not say with 100% that someone will not attain Sotapanna reading the right texts but I very highly doubt it. If you give textbooks to people who can’t read, speak, or write to develop those skills or understanding of mathematics who never really knew the concept of numbers or even know just basics – how many of those people will get to the point of understanding it on the proper level?
Keep in mind that my only intention is to clear logical gaps here and there we encounter in Buddha Dhamma so everybody has good and solid standing, truth of Dhamma will defend itself
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I wonder about this verse in the sutta “Actually, Vāseṭṭha, your people are forgetting their ancient lineage when they say this to you.”
Is Buddha explaining things from the perspective of Dhamma or how the world/universe is or does he just explain on the base of Vedas to prove the point to Vasettha?
What I’m saying is there is more value to the real community than just reading suttas, whether there would be suttas back there or not. I don’t think that even suttas can benefit people who are ignorant of Dhamma to that extent unless someone has extremely good roots like Bahiya. Something also does not add up, if Buddha didn’t think of making a book or suttas but can think and see the universe, but can’t see a way or the idea to “make a book” or “sutta” that would be really off.
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Somewhere already on the forum, and I think it was Mr. Lal who referred to the issue of this “need to listen” and it was that the message itself, which comes from Ariya, is important and can be read as well, what matters is understanding and implementation in practice. This issue of listening strictly may come from a time where there was a problem with access to print, it appears as some kind of superstition, or something of the caliber of a “ritual” – just a thing by force, a dogma of some kind. I have access to PureDhamma content, and I don’t think that by reading it and putting it into practice I am at a disadvantage to those who understand English enough to catch every important nuance and benefit from it. – @Nibbidi83
Discarding advice that may bring you closer to Nibbana and calling it “ritual” or “superstition” makes no sense and screams ignorance. You should consider this for your well-being, and I share this from personal experience. No matter what reading will substitute for experience and sharing “Dhamma” with someone. This has nothing to do with any kind of ritual or superstition. Imagine sharing food with someone in a proper atmosphere versus just ordering food from an app or drive-thru, it seems like the same thing but not really – the outcome is different. Reading is just for you to develop proper ambition and theory, understanding of concepts that may (or may not) create the possibility of realization with someone who already knows Nibbana. This is how it works. There is a sutta when one person recites sutta and other people get Nibbana but not him (the person who did recite). It’s a simple life experience that learning from someone who is realized even on the topic of science will help you quicken the understanding than teaching on your own because there is nothing and no one to point out your ignorance, even this post and I answering to that is proving the point. We are shackled by our bubble and think “We know” but in reality, it’s just a false idea of the mind. Your post is like saying I will “unbound” myself while having your hands tight in rope – but it will not work that way unless you find someone who will help you with those ropes. In reality, there may be less than a few, or maybe even nonexistent in this time of our world of people who can tackle ignorance by just reading articles without someone’s deep explanations based on someone’s ignorance. Most people can not correct themselves, they are corrected by suffering, mistakes, or others (or a mixture of a variety of those things). You should always consider anything and verify everything related to Dhamma before taking up any assumptions because this habit will create more delusion by blindly discarding everything that does not fit your ideas (ie. ignorance. In short – you can not just call things “superstition” and “rituals” because you do not like the idea of them or have a hard to accepting/understanding the principles of the ideas, it’s childish and a sign that maturity is not there. Reading about music and listening to music are two different things. I post it so everyone can reflect on themselves and keep things in check, always remind yourself of your shortcomings and turn them into opportunities, not shackle (so you do not look down on yourself on how much you do not know, but how much space there is for you to learn)
What is said is clear in many suttas. Buddha didn’t say “Look for the holy book and read on it” but look for a spiritual friend (Ariya):
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sakyans, where they have a town named Townsville. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.”
“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life. A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path? It’s when a mendicant develops right view, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. They develop right thought … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right immersion, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.
And here’s another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life. For, by relying on me as a good friend, sentient beings who are liable to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are freed from all these things. This is another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.”
There are also other factors, more on the esoteric side on how mind, speech, and actions in certain ways or certain states of mind/energy can influence you or others. Contemplate it so things whatever you can learn from a book or living Ariya is the same will become obvious. Suttas are obviously “influenced” so it can substitute “Ariya” but only to some extent, I still haven’t figured out that aspect fully on how far and how compatibile you need to be for suttas to actually help you get insight without living Ariya.
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“Boy Remembers Amazing Details of Past Life as Hollywood Actor“
This is an interesting case.
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
I would agree if I didn’t have access to PureDhamma – but now that I have access to such an extensive explanation, made through the efforts of Mr. Lal – I don’t know if this is still a valid thesis ;)
You still need to “listen” to someone either thru audio or audio-video who understand Dhamma. It works on whole different level then
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Thank you. I did get confused a bit.
I better spend my time on something useful. ( I did realize it a bit late, after resting).
I wish all those people who claim to be “Buddhist” reach to proper sources and learn Dhamma – they have motivation and will to learn but it’s all behind misinformation.
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I would say also that many ignorant people (non-Ariyas) have cognitive problems when asking questions treating them as it’s “material objects” to be discovered while it’s their perception so it creates a certain loop-trap of ignorance and lack of self-reflection.
It’s like asking “How do I know that consciousness exists” or “perception “exists while denying it because can not be “seen” yet it is experienced all the time
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: “Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?”
When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.
“Then is there no self?”
A second time, the Blessed One was silent.
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.
Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, “Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?”
“Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?”
“No, lord.”
“And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: ‘Does the self I used to have now not exist?'” – Ananda Sutta 44.10
The answer here is straightforward. Buddha did not bother with self- or non-self ideas because they do not directly cause suffering and are not solutions to that suffering. Notions of self and no self are notions of ignorance, to solve ignorance we need to understand real Dhamma that goes to the core of existential problems that are created by ignorance.
So to answer your question “How one does know that true atman/buddha nature does not exist?” – One gets rid of ignorance, knows the true nature of the world, and realizes it can not exist in the real notion of world-mind-perception, until there one will have wrong “idea” that self/buddha nature is nicca, atta and sukha. What “wrongly spiritual” people do in stages – they are disappointed in the material world (yet still clinging to a sense of pleasure) so they move to some kind of religion that correlated with their ignorance and “hopes”, “ideas” (based on ignorance) of future non-material existence, they find psychological solace in that false idea. If they are disappointed with their religion, they try spiritual practices and philosophies like yogas/advaitas/quasi-hindu-“buddhism” like mahayana with the same pattern but here there is a chance for achievement of jhana to which they wrongly cling in ignorance thinking they achieved some kind of freedom from this world but without seeing the full picture and real image of the world ie. real Dhamma they are still trapped in those wrong views.
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What I’m saying is that you trying to understand mathematics without understanding concepts of numbers and arithmetics.
First, you need to read suttas (be wary that a lot of them have the wrong translation) which is the basis of Dhamma to have an overall grasp, you try to understand and think things from a perspective outside the curriculum which will be problematic for yourself and others in the long term.
This is one point of the coin, the other is the never-ending compassion that comes from the Buddha – when one realizes that the suttas have a heart and mind it will open new possibilities to see things. One needs to understand Dhamma can not be approached with only scientific cold-heart calculations but it’s a living tradition that is meant to be experienced through the whole body, mind, and heart. It may sound vague because you need to certain maturity in tradition to experience it. Let’s go through step by step so you can understand from the “outside” perspective but this can never be learned by being “outside”.
And what is the unconditioned?
The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. – Samathavipassanāsutta SN 43.2
There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! Extinguishment is bliss!”
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it. – Nibbānasukhasutta AN 9.34
https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/nibbana-difficult-to-understand – Here is good chunk of information that may help you understand
Then the brahmin Jāṇussoṇī approached the Blessed One … and said to him:
“Master Gotama, it is said: ‘Directly visible nibbāna, directly visible nibbāna.’ In what way is nibbāna directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise?”
(1) “Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when lust is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. It is in this way that nibbāna is directly visible.
(2) “One full of hate, overcome by hatred …
(3) “One who is deluded, overcome by delusion, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when delusion is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. It is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible.
“When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.” – Nibbutasutta AN 3.55
The way to have a mental “image” I will use the example of the flu or cold, everybody experienced being unwell at least once in their lifetime – imagine that you have never really been free from the flu and your condition of existence is like this of flu but it does not become evident unless you start the healing process, so you may feel “okay” you do not feel like “flu” because right now you may feel okayish in terms of being neutral or have a home, sensual pleasure or anything that makes you think “you are fine” but this is relative, if you get sick or you will lost what you have right now it will become more on suffering side. In the same way, what you consider mundane happiness to Nibbana and Dhamma is suffering. Keep in mind that I’m using here mundane examples so you can relate to it from your own experience but when we speak about Nibbana, Dhamma, and experiences in it we speaking about different realities that a person experiences, not just feelings. That’s why while Arahant while in the body has attained Nibbana, still can feel pain.
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. …
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.
There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is a pleasure that is finer than that. Since all feeling is conditioned, and what is conditioned is suffering, the cessation of feeling is reckoned as pleasurable.
It’s possible that wanderers of other religions might say, ‘The ascetic Gotama spoke of the cessation of perception and feeling, and he includes it in happiness. What’s up with that?’
When wanderers of other religions say this, you should say to them, ‘Reverends, when the Buddha describes what’s included in happiness, he’s not just referring to pleasant feeling. The Realized One describes pleasure as included in happiness wherever it is found, and in whatever context.’” – Bahuvedanīyasutta MN59
To use simple logic if your hand is colder than the cup you grab it will be something that you may consider “warm”. If you attain first jhana what was happiness in terms of sensual pleasure is now considered “flu” for your reality of first jhana while in “neutral human state” it was something you would pursue to make yourself “happy”.
One needs to understand that the mind is detached from sansara is Nibbana. The whole confusion about Nibbana stating, something that exists or not happens because the mind automatically tries to connect it to the experiences that are understood through hate, greed, and lust so it’s impossible to understand for someone who is not Ariya:
Then Venerable Kaccānagotta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’. How is right view defined?”
“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.
But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, the concept of non-existence regarding the world does not occur. And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, the concept of existence regarding the world does not occur. – Kaccānagottasutta SN 12.15
As a flame tossed by a gust of wind,” replied the Buddha, “comes to an end and cannot be reckoned;so too, a sage freed from the set of mental phenomena comes to an end and cannot be reckoned.” – Upasīvamāṇavapucchā SNP 5.7
Trying to “think” what Nibbana is is trying to think where the flame goes after being extinguished – you will just create many delusions. This is why Buddha explains what Nibbana is in terms of what it leads to Nibbana which means “if you want to know what it is, you need to walk the Path and have the right view”.
See, this teaching is hard to understand, it confuses the ignorant. There is darkness for the shrouded; blackness for those who don’t see.
But the good are open; like light for those who see. Though close, they do not understand, those fools inexpert in the teaching.
They’re mired in desire to be reborn, flowing along the stream of lives, mired in Māra’s sway: this teaching isn’t easy for them to understand.
Who, apart from the noble ones, is qualified to understand this state? Having rightly understood this state, the undefiled become fully extinguished.” – Dvayatānupassanāsutta SNP 3.12<br />
We are concluding your main topic question:
“One who has come to an end—do they not exist? Or are they free from disease for eternity? Please, sage, answer me clearly, for truly you understand this matter.”
“One who has come to an end cannot be defined,” replied the Buddha. “They have nothing by which others might describe them. When all things have been eradicated, eradicated, too, are all ways of speech.”- Upasīvamāṇavapucchā SNP 5.7
My suggestion would be to stop trying to conceptualize Nibbana because you will only make up a falsified mind story about it. Nibbana will be evident once the right views are realized – in the sense that way to Nibbana will be evident at Sotapanna stage.
At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Varanasi, in the deer park at Isipatana.
Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita came out of retreat, went to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to Sāriputta:
“Reverend Sāriputta, does a realized one still exist after death?”
“Reverend, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”
“Well then, does a realized one no longer exist after death? …
Does a realized one both exist and not exist after death? …
Does a realized one neither exist nor not exist after death?”
“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”
“Reverend, when asked these questions, you say that they have not been declared by the Buddha. What’s the cause, what’s the reason why they have not been declared by the Buddha?”
“Reverend, ‘does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in form.
‘does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness.
This is the cause, this is the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha.” – Paṭhamasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta SN 44.3
All ideas about Nibbana come from “form, feeling, perception, choices (I think it’s the wrong translation), consciousness” that people have this is why we are saying Nibbana can not be understood the way people would like to know it. This situation is like eating cake and having cake at the same time. It’s impossible. You either develop understanding through the right view and the 8-fold Path or you will keep imaging stuff, trying to get that “perfect” image and becoming ever more far away from the Nibbana but yet Buddha assures us about Nibbana:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress. – Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding UD 8.1
In translation we have “dimension” from the word “tadāyatanaṃ” – here Lal would do a better job explaining exactly the word in the context, but ayatana (https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/key-pali-terms-tanha-lobha-dosa-moha/indriya-and-ayatana-big-difference/) is related to mental dimension, not “heaven” or object outside of your mind. I’m not sure if you or someone else (maybe a different topic) said that “Arahant would be a vegetable without consciousness” but in Dhamma, we meant that Arahant’s body and mind function without normally but what is meant here is “without consciousness” is without fabrication that is related to the pancakkhandha (https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/five-aggregates-pancakkhandha/pancakkhandha-or-five-aggregates-a-misinterpreted-concept/) – Arahant does not have pancakkandha but his physical faculties work as in normal person.
I think that pretty much explains everything related to Nibbana, if you have any more questions feel free to ask – I will try to explain.
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That understanding of scientists “that our subjective reality is a fabrication” comes from the fabrication of the sanna itself. It is related to “simulation theory” and other wrong views, so wrong views can not liberate themselves. If you are under the influence of something and become aware of it, it does not mean it brings a solution to the issue because the root problem is still there. You need to be mindful of it with the proper understanding that it comes with Dhamma to be liberated from those views.
To put it simply, just because you are aware of wrong views while having wrong views does not bring a solution. The “root” view needs to be proper so the rest will “grow” from it.
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- Keeping precepts is not enough, it’s good but you need to see “bad” things and why they are bad. Keeping precepts is not a “vow” or “exercise” – it’s the result of insight and wisdom that you gain through understanding Dhamma
- You need to have a properly realized teacher who can speak to you directly about progress and your understanding. It’s very hard to do it on your own. There are videos of certain teachers that explain the true nature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk8UenDhipg
- Read thru the site too
- Meditate using kammasthana (chanting like “Ethan Santhan Ethan Paneethan”)
It takes time to mature because your progress is limited by your own understanding and inborn qualities. You should not give up even if the progress is slow as there is no other way out of Sansara
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I always tell people who go beyond their means of understanding that when it comes to “self” or “no self” and Nibbana they are trying to think of color they don’t know – it’s just impossible to understand that conceptually on the level you would like to understand.
The way it works is that the mind can exist without any attachment or desire, and the existence of that mind makes the “self” vanish. While in the body, the function of the body still stays the same, with new outcomes and experiences that result from Nibbana. Buddha explained it as Nibbana with residue.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.” – “Nibbānadhātu Sutta“
People are scared of the “no self” idea because of misunderstanding and they overthink it because they think about it in terms of an ignorant person. Some people are scared to lose “hate” or their negative emotions. Freedom from self is not practice or philosophy like some people trying to make, but the outcome of Nibbana – you will come to it sooner or later. It’s good to remind yourself of your position and know where you stand with your understanding of Dhamma to not fall into delusion. Some people come to scientists and start to argue about their delusions or ideas without having basic knowledge and understanding of themselves. Curiosity is natural but we must understand that when it’s beyond our understanding we may very quickly become ignorant in our actions without being aware of doing so.
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