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The “intention” of aborting a human embryo in an unwanted pregnancy would be to protect the mother’s life & well-being, AND the baby from future suffering. So I remain unconvinced that their minds will release javana citta equivalent to the strength of “murdering” a human that is already living independent of their mother.
I think this is a really bad argument, if you kill something for the comfort or sense of pleasure it’s even worse javana citta. Your logic would apply in the sense that I have no problem killing anyone because somebody is bothering me and killing that person will make me feel go away isn’t it the worst kamma to make?
This is why we need to verify our logic from a lot of angles especially if it is infected with mundane ignorance.
I understand there are extreme situations like “the child will be dead anyway so let’s save the mother” as the best choice in a given situation, but Dhamma perspective is different from than mundane perspective and logic that often falls in the big picture of the world.
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“When one is infected with parasites, it’d be advised to take medicine to kill them, too”—the value of worms is much less in karmic terms, and being human is extremely rare, the same with pets. As Buddha taught us, “It’s not the way we like it.” You can not even out everything because you want something to be according to your logic. You are trying to bend it with tunnel vision of ignorance. Buddha explained how it is in the big picture, if you see the big picture it’s clear that it is like that.
You put extreme examples but it does not take away that the cell is a living being, just because it does not look like that to you it does not mean it is not. If you see a small sapling of the tree, it is still a tree even if it has no branches or it does not look like it.
In extreme examples, those are very unfortunate for people who experience them and we understand that but emotionally charged arguments will not make truth non-truth. If people value mundane life they will abort or make any sacrifices on all levels of life for the sake of an illusionary sense of pleasure. If you are put in a bad situation you either make it worse for the future or somehow manage it, normal people have no option of Dhamma so obviously they generate more kamma with wrongdoings.
Your arguments are just questions of value. Puthujjana will always choose the option of a sense of pleasure under false views to the extreme version of sacrificing everything for the outcome of comfort and not having problems. Ariya will always value Nibbana even if it costs him his life because in the long term, you will be free permanently from sansara.
I think Vinaya is very good for measuring potential wrongdoings and their weight even if you are not a monk.
People need to understand that society and the way people act are based on distorted sanna so obviously, there will be shortcomings one way or another even if we have a pretty developed society in terms of material-objective truths that help up advance in terms of science and technology, but without Dhamma it can turn wrong way easily.
Having someone with an understanding of Dhamma + strong 4th jhana you could verify most things like that by yourself and experience of it.
We can kind of blame Ananda for that, as he fumbled when Buddha gave Ananada a hint. I’m saying blame in a “joking” manner, of course.
“The Realized One has developed and cultivated the four bases of psychic power, made them a vehicle and a basis, kept them up, consolidated them, and properly implemented them. If he wished, the Realized One could live on for the eon or what’s left of the eon.”
“Ānanda, the misdeed is yours alone, the mistake is yours alone. For even though the Realized One dropped such an obvious hint, such a clear sign, you didn’t beg me to remain for the eon, or what’s left of it. If you had begged me, I would have refused you twice, but consented on the third time. Therefore, Ānanda, the misdeed is yours alone, the mistake is yours alone.”
Buddha would live for that long or longer but nobody asked for that where there was time to ask.
Many people see the transferring of merits in a very ignorant way. In some countries like Thailand, they pretty much sponsor monks so they can be successful for material well-being. If monks are not “successful,” they are not sponsored anymore, leading to harsher times in the monastery. It’s not inherently bad itself, but a mindset like that obviously is not beneficial.
I don’t think we can measure or even see if merits sharing works the way most people think. People should do it without expecting anything and just do it with a sincere feeling towards people because is just beneficial on the base of that feeling
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I would say it’s natural for ignorance to “think” we are right or feel right in situations when we are wrong. Nothing to feel sorry about, it’s a condition of all people and we’ve all been there. Even in a mundane way, we know when somebody is wrong yet they feel sure about it and then life bites back. It happens the same with a world view.
The translator’s mistake is the other aspect that the English translation speaks about “cow dung” in suttas. I doubt we had cows at that stage of humanity
At the time of Buddha, there were types of writing around the world:
- Clay tablets (Mesopotamia)
- Stone inscriptions (Egypt, Greece)
- Turtle shells and bones (China)
- Papyrus scrolls (Egypt)
- Pottery and ceramics (Various civilizations)
- Bark paper (Mesoamerica)
- Wooden tablets
- Animal skins
- Leaves (in tropical regions)
There are two ways to make a logical conclusion or argument based on what we have:
Whether Buddha didn’t want transmissions in textual form for various reasons (having Ananda with ultra memory or people memorizing as part of Dhamma training, monks obviously could not engage in such things as production materials) for practical reasons.
or having living Ariya is more beneficial for one understanding and Path. (or just both)
In my personal opinion, both are good, second is better for the arguments I provided above – even if we base on simple logic and life experience we would conclude that. Studying just from the books/suttas or sites may not be enough if someone can’t get pointed out in his “field of vision”. Usually, when you study materials, textbooks, or anything you are put into a very narrow field of understanding that you need to conclude a lot on your own and “teach yourself” so to speak to develop understanding. Having someone else can point out your misunderstanding or ignorance on the topic that you may not be aware of using different examples and can show you different angles of thinking that textual forms don’t have on that level or you may not see them. As I said in my understanding both are good but the second is better, I can not say with 100% that someone will not attain Sotapanna reading the right texts but I very highly doubt it. If you give textbooks to people who can’t read, speak, or write to develop those skills or understanding of mathematics who never really knew the concept of numbers or even know just basics – how many of those people will get to the point of understanding it on the proper level?
Keep in mind that my only intention is to clear logical gaps here and there we encounter in Buddha Dhamma so everybody has good and solid standing, truth of Dhamma will defend itself
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I wonder about this verse in the sutta “Actually, Vāseṭṭha, your people are forgetting their ancient lineage when they say this to you.”
Is Buddha explaining things from the perspective of Dhamma or how the world/universe is or does he just explain on the base of Vedas to prove the point to Vasettha?
What I’m saying is there is more value to the real community than just reading suttas, whether there would be suttas back there or not. I don’t think that even suttas can benefit people who are ignorant of Dhamma to that extent unless someone has extremely good roots like Bahiya. Something also does not add up, if Buddha didn’t think of making a book or suttas but can think and see the universe, but can’t see a way or the idea to “make a book” or “sutta” that would be really off.
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Somewhere already on the forum, and I think it was Mr. Lal who referred to the issue of this “need to listen” and it was that the message itself, which comes from Ariya, is important and can be read as well, what matters is understanding and implementation in practice. This issue of listening strictly may come from a time where there was a problem with access to print, it appears as some kind of superstition, or something of the caliber of a “ritual” – just a thing by force, a dogma of some kind. I have access to PureDhamma content, and I don’t think that by reading it and putting it into practice I am at a disadvantage to those who understand English enough to catch every important nuance and benefit from it. – @Nibbidi83
Discarding advice that may bring you closer to Nibbana and calling it “ritual” or “superstition” makes no sense and screams ignorance. You should consider this for your well-being, and I share this from personal experience. No matter what reading will substitute for experience and sharing “Dhamma” with someone. This has nothing to do with any kind of ritual or superstition. Imagine sharing food with someone in a proper atmosphere versus just ordering food from an app or drive-thru, it seems like the same thing but not really – the outcome is different. Reading is just for you to develop proper ambition and theory, understanding of concepts that may (or may not) create the possibility of realization with someone who already knows Nibbana. This is how it works. There is a sutta when one person recites sutta and other people get Nibbana but not him (the person who did recite). It’s a simple life experience that learning from someone who is realized even on the topic of science will help you quicken the understanding than teaching on your own because there is nothing and no one to point out your ignorance, even this post and I answering to that is proving the point. We are shackled by our bubble and think “We know” but in reality, it’s just a false idea of the mind. Your post is like saying I will “unbound” myself while having your hands tight in rope – but it will not work that way unless you find someone who will help you with those ropes. In reality, there may be less than a few, or maybe even nonexistent in this time of our world of people who can tackle ignorance by just reading articles without someone’s deep explanations based on someone’s ignorance. Most people can not correct themselves, they are corrected by suffering, mistakes, or others (or a mixture of a variety of those things). You should always consider anything and verify everything related to Dhamma before taking up any assumptions because this habit will create more delusion by blindly discarding everything that does not fit your ideas (ie. ignorance. In short – you can not just call things “superstition” and “rituals” because you do not like the idea of them or have a hard to accepting/understanding the principles of the ideas, it’s childish and a sign that maturity is not there. Reading about music and listening to music are two different things. I post it so everyone can reflect on themselves and keep things in check, always remind yourself of your shortcomings and turn them into opportunities, not shackle (so you do not look down on yourself on how much you do not know, but how much space there is for you to learn)
What is said is clear in many suttas. Buddha didn’t say “Look for the holy book and read on it” but look for a spiritual friend (Ariya):
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sakyans, where they have a town named Townsville. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.”
“Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life. A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path? It’s when a mendicant develops right view, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. They develop right thought … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right immersion, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go. That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.
And here’s another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life. For, by relying on me as a good friend, sentient beings who are liable to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are freed from all these things. This is another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.”
There are also other factors, more on the esoteric side on how mind, speech, and actions in certain ways or certain states of mind/energy can influence you or others. Contemplate it so things whatever you can learn from a book or living Ariya is the same will become obvious. Suttas are obviously “influenced” so it can substitute “Ariya” but only to some extent, I still haven’t figured out that aspect fully on how far and how compatibile you need to be for suttas to actually help you get insight without living Ariya.
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“Boy Remembers Amazing Details of Past Life as Hollywood Actor“
This is an interesting case.
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
I would agree if I didn’t have access to PureDhamma – but now that I have access to such an extensive explanation, made through the efforts of Mr. Lal – I don’t know if this is still a valid thesis ;)
You still need to “listen” to someone either thru audio or audio-video who understand Dhamma. It works on whole different level then
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Thank you. I did get confused a bit.
I better spend my time on something useful. ( I did realize it a bit late, after resting).
I wish all those people who claim to be “Buddhist” reach to proper sources and learn Dhamma – they have motivation and will to learn but it’s all behind misinformation.
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I would say also that many ignorant people (non-Ariyas) have cognitive problems when asking questions treating them as it’s “material objects” to be discovered while it’s their perception so it creates a certain loop-trap of ignorance and lack of self-reflection.
It’s like asking “How do I know that consciousness exists” or “perception “exists while denying it because can not be “seen” yet it is experienced all the time
