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Thanks Lal,
In Point 1 of this post https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna/ it is mentioned “Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga stage, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta, and thus one becomes a Sōtapanna virtually at the same time.”
1) When you refer to “one who gets to sotapanna magga stage” is this referring to a sotapanna anugami? Does this mean that the differentiation between a sotapanna anugami and a sotapanna is based on one chitta? i.e. from magga chitta to phala chitta?
2) If a person who is striving to comprehend thilakkana and working towards becoming a sotapanna is a sotapanna anugami shouldn’t a person who has already reached the sotapanna stage automatically become a sakadagami anugami?
Hi Siebe,
You mentioned that if someone has some kind of responsibility towards another that they will invariably have some kind of affliction. This is true when we look at things at a glance. But if we dig deeper it may appear otherwise.
Let’s take a teacher who is responsible for a class of say 20 students and his intention is for all of them to get a good grade (an A) in the exam. However a teacher will know that all students are not capable of getting an A. So a teacher will teach to the best of his ability, catering to the individual capabilities of the students. The happiness or fulfilment of the teacher will not depend on the absolute grade that the students receive. For example if student X has the potential to get an A but receives a B the teacher will be disappointed. On the other hand if the teacher thought that student Y can only get a C and he gets a B, the teacher will be happy. So it is clear that it is this expectation that ultimately causes happiness or distress.
As a teacher, however responsible you are towards a student’s future, it is ultimately up to that student to do what he is told to. And as a teacher you have no control over what the student does. The teacher can only teach to the best of his ability, but if the student doesn’t want to learn, however capable he is, there is nothing more a teacher can do. This is the case for doctors, parents and other such people as well. When one realises this, one can perform his duties and responsibilities, without being distressed or worried.
Hi drs8,
I found a sutta that may be relevant to this discussion on how to deal with theros or teachers one followed prior to being exposed to the true Buddha dhamma.
In the Udumbarika Sutta https://suttacentral.net/dn25/en/sujato the Buddha explains the dhamma to an ascetic from a different tradition and after the said ascetic accepts the Buddha’s teachings, the Buddha says the following;
“Nigrodha, you might think: ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants pupils.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your teacher remain your teacher.
You might think: ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to give up our recitation.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your recitation remain as it is.
You might think: ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to give up our livelihood.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your livelihood remain as it is.
You might think: ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to start doing things that are unskilful and considered unskilful in our tradition.’ But you should not see it like this. Let those things that are unskilful and considered unskilful in your tradition remain as they are.
You might think: ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to stop doing things that are skilful and considered skilful in our tradition.’ But you should not see it like this. Let those things that are skilful and considered skilful in your tradition remain as they are.”
Hi Student,
Firstly, it is good that you have seen that thinking of others as less intelligent or as idiots is bad and you are looking at how to get away from this type of thinking. I guess all of us have this type of thinking at varying levels. This is called uchcha maana.
We have to realise that each one of us have been in this samsara for an infinite amount of time and thus would have had numerous types of lives. The Buddha says that each one of us at one point or other would have been in all the different realms (except those realms reserved for anagamis). Which means we have been in the lowest hells, been animals of all kinds, been kings and beggars in the human realms and also been in deva and brahma realms.
So there is a high chance that you would also have been just like those surrounded by you at one point in samsara. You would have been the idiot, you would have been the parent with low intelligence and so on. With that in mind, are you (in this present life) in a state to judge others, because you would have been worse than them at one point or other.
Another point is that you are intelligent not because you like to be. You are intelligent because of a whole load of causes, which made you intelligent. Most of these causes would have occurred in past lives. In the same way the others are less intelligent because they had the causes to be less intelligent. Do you think they like being less intelligent? I doubt it. May be they don’t realise that they are less intelligent but they definitely wouldn’t like to be less intelligent. So you need to remember that given the causes you ended up being more intelligent than them. You also had the causes to be in the midst of them.
Finally, this is a good time to reflect on the anichcha nature of the world, i.e. things will never be the way you like it to be. You would like to be surrounded by intelligent people but you are surrounded by idiots. That is simply because the world will never be to your liking. And when it is not the way you like it to be it causes you to be stressed and angry i.e. dukka. You can reflect on aniccha and anichche dukka sannas.
Hope this helps.
Hi firewns,
The most beneficial way to carry out a meritorious deed is to hope that the good punna kamma of the deed help one (and all beings) attain nibbana.
For example if one is donating money he can think in the following manner. May this good deed help those that receive this donation live well and ultimately understand the dhamma (attain nibbana), and help me and all other beings understand the dhamma and attain nibbana.
The important point here is what we wish for when doing the meritorious deed. Wishing that whatever the meritorious deed to help me and all beings attain nibbana is the most beneficial.
As for thrihetuka births, one may never know if he has a thrihetuka birth (unless he knows that he has attained a magga pala). So the only way I see is to keep striving to understand the dhamma and keep doing meritorious deeds (as mentioned above).
Hi y not,
It is important to understand that only a Buddha will be able to explain fully how a particular kamma and vipaka has unfolded. We can only assume. So here is how I see it.
The fact that Tom wanted to lend money to Kathy means that both of them would have had some transaction prior to this. Chances are that Tom owed something to Kathy (or someone else entirely).
After Kathy borrowed the money she has an obligation to pay it back to Tom. So if she doesn’t this would result in her having to pay him (or someone else) back in the future. She has created a kamma for herself.
So in this case both 1) she has done something wrong and 3) this is the way the debt was settled can both be correct.
Kamma vipaka vaththanthi, vipako kamma sambavo…
Due to a kamma a vipaka is generated. And by facing this vipaka new kamma is generated.
Hi firewns,
You said: Living beings come to be due to the arising of the five skhandhas in a new bhava.
Though you say that living beings arise due to five skandha, we can go back further to find the actual root cause of this through paticca samuppada. According to PS the root cause is avijja (ignorance) and this in turn leads to bava and jati.
The way I look at it, the beginning is avijja. The beginning referred to here is based on sequences rather than a time scale.
This also leads us to how we can get out of this cycle and that is through eradicating avijja completely and without a trace.
Hi y not,
A Buddha (or a pacceka Buddha) realises the dhamma by himself, without any help from anyone else. Therefore a Buddha will not have attained any magga pala until he attains enlightenment.
If he did have some stage of magga pala before he was born as Siddhartha, then he would have been an ariya shrawaka and will not be a Budda / Bodhisatta.
Bodhisatta is actually a name / label given in retrospect. So a bodhisatta may not even know that he is one. He is just a person going in search of the truth and help everyone else see the truth.
Thanks Johnny,
The Arya Samma Smadhi is also explained in the third section of the Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi) as;
A mind that is focused and surrounded by the other seven arya factors (samma ditti through to samma sathi) is called arya samma Samadhi.
Hi All,
There were questions raised as to why Goenka’s meditation will not lead to nibbana. These are my thoughts and are relevant to any meditation technique (not only Goenka’s).
Nibbana is attained in a step by step process starting from the stream entry / sotapanna stage. It is evident from the sutta’s, that the sotapanna stage can only be attained from listening to the sa-dhamma (sa-dhamma shravanaya) and comprehending it. This sa-dhamma needs to be explained by someone who has at least attained the sotapanna stage, a kalyana mitta. Sotapanna stage cannot be attained by meditation.
If there is a method leading to nibbana it has to start with listening and comprehending the sa-dhamma, as one does not have the ability to comprehend the sa-dhamma by himself. So if someone expects to attain the sotapanna stage through meditation, it will not happen.
Hence a programme that relies only on meditation cannot lead one to attain the sotapanna stage.
Hi Lal,
With regard to kamma patha;
The kamma patha that we generally refer to are the kamma patha for the dasa akusala. So for a kamma patha for panathipatha to be completed all those four conditions need to be met. If all those conditions are not met then the kamma of killing an animal will not be created.
For example if one tries to kill an animal but the animal does not die than the panathipatha kamma patha is not created. However with the thoughts, intentions and actions one makes towards killing that animal, kamma is created. So can this mean that different kamma patha are created for/at those different stages of planning etc.?
Hi Alay,
You asked: Is there any explanation for our physical characteristics (even in the human plane) – i.e some are born with pleasing features and some are not. Even in the animal plane, some have pleasing features while others have fearsome features.
The differences in people are all based on their kamma. The physical characteristics, beauty, health, wealth all of this is based on previous kamma. These differences can be seen in the animal, human and even in some lower deva realms.
Hi Tobias / Lal,
These differences in the bala are mentioned in the sekkhabala vagga and the bala vagga.
In the sekkha bala vagga https://suttacentral.net/an5.2/pli/ms hiri and otappa are explained as follows;
(2) “And what is the power of moral shame? Here, a noble disciple has a sense of moral shame; he is ashamed of bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct; he is ashamed of acquiring evil, unwholesome qualities. This is called the power of moral shame.
(3) “And what is the power of moral dread? Here, a noble disciple dreads wrongdoing; he dreads bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct; he dreads acquiring evil, unwholesome qualities. This is called the power of moral dread.In the Thathagatha Bala Sutta (Named as Ananussutasutta in Sutta Central) https://suttacentral.net/an5.11/pli/ms the buddha says that the 5 bala (Saddha, viriya, hiri, otappa and pragna) helped him attain enlightenment.
In the Bala Vithaththa Sutta https://suttacentral.net/an5.14/pli/ms the 5 powers are mentioned as Saddha, viriya, sati, Samadhi, pragna. Here sati and Samadhi are explained as follows;
(3) “And what is the power of mindfulness? Here, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and alertness, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. This is called the power of mindfulness.
(4) “And what is the power of concentration? Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity. This is called the power of concentration.From this I think hiri and otappa are for trainees (sekkha) and may be even for anariyas. Sati and Samadhi are for ariyas? An ariya would keep away from immoral deeds more with understanding while an anariya will do it more because or shame and being scared. Hence, the panca bala in the 37 factors for enlightenment include sati and samadi.
Does that make sense?
Thank Tobias for pointing this out. I had read these suttas before but it never occurred to me.
Hi Vince,
This is how I see these 2 situations.
1) If a person chooses not to place a dying parent of life support.
If the persons intention is to kill the parent by not placing him on life support then it is an ananthariya kamma. Placing on life support is only one medical option, and just because one is placed on life support does not mean that the patient has a 100% chance of living. There are instances where different doctors propose contrasting treatments to the same patient. The patient’s family will have to choose one over the other. I think life support should be viewed in a similar manner.
2) If the person chooses to switch off the life support.
If such a decision is made and the patient dies because of an action following that decision, then an ananthariya kamma may be created. When one decides to switch off a patient’s life support, the intention more often is to cease the patient’s life. However there are instances where the patient lives on even after the life support is switched off, and in such a case no ananthariya kamma will take place although a grave papa / akusala kamma will be created, due to the decision to switch off the life support.
Going back to point 1): If we know that we may face a situation like situation 2) if we choose to put someone on life support, then I believe the safest would be not to put the patient on life support.
