[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

In Point 6 of the post Pannavimutti – Arahanthhood without Jhana https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/samadhi-jhana-magga-phala/pannavimutti-arahanthood-without-jhana/ you present the citta vithi to attain a magga phala. Here there are two different cittas named as magga citta (M) and phala citta (P).

1. Can you explain a bit more about these two? How are they different?

2. Is a Magga citta always followed by a phala citta? Are there other citta vithi where there is only a magga citta without a phala citta?

3. Do you know the citta viti for a person who falls into the sotapanna magga anugami stage? Or any other magga anugami stage?

Thanks,
Akvan

[Lal]

Hello Akvan,

1. We can think of it this way. Nibbana is attained in four steps (Sotapanna, Sakadagami,..). At each step one comprehends Tilakkhana (and asubha nature) to a significant level. Magga citta is basically when one really grasps this “real nature” at a given level, and that is completing a kamma. One gets the vipaka (or the result of that kamma) in the very next citta.
   – This is a citta niyama (a universal law). All four “lokottara kamma” have immediate results, in the very next citta.

2. Sotapanna Anugami has not yet attained a magga or a phala citta. He/she has heard the correct Tilakkhana and may have some understanding. But that understanding has not yet reached the “tipping point”; see, “Sotapanna Anugami and a Sotapanna“.
3. The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:

   B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B B

   In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.

[SengKiat]

@Akvan said: Is a Magga citta always followed by a phala citta?

Please read this Magga-vithi-citta article to understand the magga and phala citta in a change of lineage (gotrabhu) moment.

[Akvan]

Thanks Lal,

In Point 1 of this post https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna/ it is mentioned “Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga stage, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta, and thus one becomes a Sōtapanna virtually at the same time.”

1) When you refer to “one who gets to sotapanna magga stage” is this referring to a sotapanna anugami? Does this mean that the differentiation between a sotapanna anugami and a sotapanna is based on one chitta? i.e. from magga chitta to phala chitta?

2) If a person who is striving to comprehend thilakkana and working towards becoming a sotapanna is a sotapanna anugami shouldn’t a person who has already reached the sotapanna stage automatically become a sakadagami anugami?

[y not]

I hope this makes it in time before Lal answers Akvan:

“1. Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga stage, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta, and thus one becomes a Sōtapanna virtually at the same time.”

“5. Similarly, a Sōtapanna magga anugami spends time contemplating the newly learned concepts of anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, etc.”

As I see it, as there is virtually no time to differentiate between a Sotapanna Magga and a Sotapanna Phala (it happens instantly and on its own accord), unlike the case of a Sotapanna Anugami becoming a Sotapanna, (where there is something to be consciously done by him, which takes time) I fail to see …
” 1. THERE ARE FOUR who have fulfilled the conditions for the four stages of Nibbāna: Sōtapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant. They are said to be in the magga stage for respective stage. AND THERE ARE FOUR who have received the fruits (phala)” ….why the Magga in any of the four stages is treated as distinct from its Phala stage, as to all practical purposes, the time spent by a Sotapanna in the Magga stage is insignificant. That is, how is it that they (the four Magga stages) warrant the 4 (of the 8) ‘types of people’, since they cannot be found (because they have by then already moved ON to the Phala stage).

I hope I have been clear. By the same reasoning, I can see the 8 ‘types’ of Ariyas (the 4 Anugamis and their respective 4 full Stages.)

As to Akvan’s second point, if it were so, that one Stage leads into the next higher one automatically, where is the place for the striving to attain those higher Stages.? There would be only Arahants around!

Lest I be misunderstood,this is different from the inevitable attainment of Nibbana as a matter of course on even setting foot on the Path (the Anugami Satopanna stage), but this involves effort and time, even though that time (within 7 bhava) is set.

Metta to all beings

[Lal]

Regarding the quotation that Akvan gave from the post, I just revised that sentence to make it more precise: “Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga citta, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta,..”.

I also added #3 from my post above to that post (new #2) to make it more clear ( https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna/ ):
The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:
B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B B

In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.

Akvan said:” If a person who is striving to comprehend thilakkana and working towards becoming a sotapanna is a sotapanna anugami shouldn’t a person who has already reached the sotapanna stage automatically become a sakadagami anugami?”

That is essentially correct. But technically, a Sotapanna is not called a “Sakadagami Anugami” unless he/she is making an effort to get to the Sakadagami stage.

Yes. The explanation of y not is correct.

[y not]

Thank you Lal.

What is it that I am missing here? I apparently do not see that you addressed this in your reply:

How does the phrase attha purisa puggalā” refer to both:

1. “….they are referred to as “attha purisa puggalā” …Thus there are eight types of people belonging to the sangha. Who are the eight?”, and on to the listing them as those who have satisfied the conditions (Magga) and those who have reaped the fruits (Phala) of the four Stages – Sōtapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant.” Again, “how is it that they (the four Magga stages) warrant the 4 (of the 8) ‘types of people’, since they cannot be found (because they have by then already moved ON to the Phala stage). How are there eight here when 4 (the 4 Magga) exist only for the duration of a chitta? This is my question. The four do not exist but for the duration of a chitta. How do they belong to the Sangha if they do not exist but for the duration of that chitta. How can you ‘salute a chitta’? This is what I mean.

and (at the same time) to:

1. Thus it is clear that “attha purisa puggalā” consist of the eight Ariyas (Noble Persons): Sōtapanna Anugāmi, Sōtapanna, Sakadāgāmi Anugāmi, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi Anugāmi, Anāgāmi, Arahant Anugāmi, and Arahant.” With this I have no problems.

Infinite gratitude

[Lal]

y not said: “What is it that I am missing here? I apparently do not see that you addressed this in your reply:..”

Apparently, I did not read your comment carefully. I thought you had understood. If something is not clear, it is better to ask a question, rather than to make a statement. I have said this to you before too. I cannot miss it, if a direct question is asked.

y not asked: ” How are there eight here when 4 (the 4 Magga) exist only for the duration of a chitta?”

That is the whole point. A Sotapanna Anugami HAS NOT HAD a magga citta yet.

Having a “magga citta” moment is different from being on the path (magga) to become a Sotapanna.

To put it in another way: A “magga anugami” may be a better word. That means one who is following the path to get to the “magga” moment.

That is all I can say. I cannot explain that any better. Please read my comments and the post in question carefully. Then refer to any of those statements and ask a direct question.

[y not]

Thank you so much Lal:

I did ask the question (below) but it was ‘drowned out’ by the length of my statement; but yes, I should make it easier for the question to stand out. I tend to take great pains to ‘set the background’ to a question, or even to a statement of my own. I have been told before, even in conversation, ‘Come out with it’ It is just that I do not want to be misunderstood.

….”That is, how is it that they (the four Magga stages) warrant the 4 (of the 8) ‘types of people’, since they cannot be found (because they have by then already moved ON to the Phala stage).”

I will follow your leads.

Ever grateful

[Akvan]

Thanks Lal.

[Author]

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