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The following sutta also explains that one should not stop all thoughts.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn1.24Hi Siebe,
You asked what the meaning of the phrase ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’ is.
I see that you have raised this in another post as well. I will try and explain what I understand of this.Preceding the above phrase (for example in https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.15) the Buddha says “Bhikkhus, form is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself.” In Pali this is “Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ; yaṃ dukkhaṃ tadanattā”
I understand this as; rupa will not stay the way one likes it to be. If something does not stay the way I like it to be it causes suffering. And if something causes suffering then there is no point in it (it is worthless/pointless).
Then he goes on to say: “What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’” In pali “yadanattā taṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti”
I understand this as; If something is pointless / worthless (as it causes suffering), there is no point (it is foolish) to think of it is me, it is mine and something worthwhile to try and make it mine.
Makes sense??
It is also said that fully understanding of the above leads one to become an arahath and that this is the only thing that needs to be done to attain nibbana. So I don’t think that the phrase; ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ (yadanattā taṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti) specifically refers to sakkayaditti. However, the basic / fundamental understanding of this will lead to the eradication of sakkayaditti. I guess at the ultimate level, the understanding of this leads to the eradication of Maana (asameemana).
Thanks Johnny for sharing the article.
Hi Siebe,
For your question of the earth being destroyed; I wouldn’t say that it is only based on kamma. Just like all other events, the other 7 factors can also have an influence. However, it would be based on kamma that those specific beings will be living at the time the earth comes to its end. There would be countless other beings who would have died and be born in other realms just before the world ends and so the beings living at the time would be there due to their kamma.
You say that when this event takes place that these beings will suffer and die. We should note that how we see “suffering and dying” in the conventional sense is not how suffering and dying is seen through the Dhamma. For example, it is common to consider that dying in one’s sleep is peaceful while dying in a disaster or accident as tragic. However according to Dhamma the event that leads to death does not explain whether that person suffers or not and what his next birth will be.
When a person who has killed his parents dies (whether in his sleep or is violently killed in an accident) he will go to hell, while when a sotapanna dies (whether in his sleep or by a disaster) he will never go to hell. I would consider the former tragic while the latter peaceful regardless of the event. There are examples of arahanth’s being murdered or dying as a result of accidents. Such incidents would be seen as tragic in the conventional world.
Also in the Agganna Sutta (https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27) the Buddha says that after the earth is destroyed that most beings will be born in the Abhassara Brahma realm (world of radiance).
When explaining natural disasters (or anything for that matter) current scientific or sociological practices does not consider the kamma niyama, but considers all other niyamas. Also, current practices mainly focus on effort and intelligence (prayoga sampatti) to minimise or negate the effects of these impacts.
We also need to keep in mind that only a Buddha can truly understand the workings of Kamma. He has said that others should not try to understand everything about kamma and that such an effort will only lead one to lose their mind. It is unfathomable. So, I would simply assume that kamma plays a role in all these things and that the roots of these events are because of kamma. It may be a very small portion due to kamma, but kamma still has a part to play.
These Niyama’s govern how the world works. Out of all these niyama’s we can only influence kamma by influencing what type of kamma vipaka we will experience in the future. But we have so many kamma waiting to give vipaka, that the only solution is to make sure one does not get into a state that all these stored bad kamma can give us vipaka.
Finally, all of this shows that there are so many factors in play that we are not in control of this world or ourselves and that the world will not be as we like and want it to be.
Hi Siebe,
This is the only English translation I could find. This is not the best, and only mentions the verse he explains the cause of the rock hitting the foot, in the last 4 lines at the bottom of the page.
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Connection-with-Previous-Deeds/05-Pierced-by-a-Rock.htmRelevant to your marathon question; In the Pubbakamma Pilotika Therapadana, the Buddha says how he insulted a Buddha in a previous birth and gives this as the reason why he had to undergo 6 years of suffering before he attained enlightenment. This is a decision he made but the suffering due to that decision was a result of a kamma.
However, this is not to say that everything is deterministic and/or determined by kamma. This is evident as the Buddha realised that putting the body through immense suffering was not the way forward and decided to let go of that approach. Likewise, the man running the marathon to raise money may later on realise that there is an easier, less painful way to raise money. Or better still that there is more permeant solution to all these illnesses and help people on that path.
Thanks for the Girimananda Sutta, sorry I may have just skipped this section.
The Buddha here is explaining the “adeenava” of the body. I wouldn’t translate “adeenava” as danger per say, but may be say something like the problems of the body, or the bad effects experienced by the body.
Then he lists down all the illnesses (problems) that a body can experience. These 8 reasons are listed together with commonly known diseases and also heat/cold, hunger/thirst etc. If we take kamma as a separate cause we will also have to take hunger as a separate cause and fever as a separate cause, which doesn’t make sense. So, I don’t think it is correct to take these 8 reasons separately but should rather consider all aspects on the list together, as problems afflicting the body.
So to your main question; could bodily pain be due to other causes than kamma-vipaka? Short answer; Yes.
But based on the sutta’s we can say that kamma-vipaka will be the primary cause, and that other 7 causes will also play a part. So kamma-vipaka may not be the only cause but there can be no bodily pain without any kamma-vipaka. There will be atleast, say 1%, due to kamma-vipaka. It also means that the primary cause may not be the most prominent, or at least the most visible for us.
Thanks Lal. I went through the suttas.
Siebe said; But if one would zoom in and look for a cause for a certain illness or pain or suffering one must be careful to immediately think that must be due to kamma.
In the Pubbakamma Pilotika Therapadana (THA AP392) in the Kuddaka Nikāya, the Buddha specifically mentions the causes for pain and illnesses he suffered after becoming the Buddha.
For example; in a previous birth he had killed his step-brother by throwing him off a rock to get his father’s wealth. Due to this kamma-vipaka his foot was injured when Devadatta threw a rock at him and it hit another rock and a splinter hit him.
From this it is obvious that the root cause is kamma, but other 7 causes may also come together for the vipaka to manifest.
With regard to natural disasters; if people dying by such natural disaster isn’t due to kamma vipaka how else can we explain why only some people are affected and others are not by the same incident? There are people who miraculously survive even when they are in the same place at the same time as others.
Also when a group of people are affected together it is due to all of them being part of a kamma together in a previous time. For example in the Pubbakamma Pilotika Therapadana the Buddha says how he in a previous life insulted a Brahmin and told 500 of his followers the same and all of them went around spreading bad words about the Brahmin. Due to this kamma-vipaka all 500 of his followers in that life, who were ordained and were followers of the Buddha now, were insulted together by Sundarika Pribrajika.
Firstly, we need to be a bit careful as the Milindapanha was recorded after the First Buddhist Council and is not considered by some to be part of the Tripitaka.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/noncanon/index.htmlThe question posed by King Milinda is whether the Buddha burnt out all evil in himself when he became a Buddha and if he had indeed burnt out all evil how was it that he hurt himself after becoming a Buddha?
This is a bit of a confusing question. One does not experience pain because of evil per say but because of the result of such an evil (thought/deed). So even though the Buddha does not have any evil within himself he can experience results due to past evil he had done.
These 8 causes are mentioned in SN36.21 (Sivaka Sutta), but I could not find them in AN10.60 (Girimananda Sutta)
In SN36.21, the Buddha’s opinion on some claims made by Brahmana’s that “whatever a person experience’s, all that is caused by what was done in the past” is clarified. The Buddha refutes this claim that everything that happens, is caused by something done in the past and gives 8 causes, one being kamma-vipaka. It has to be understood here that “what has been done in the past” does not refer to kamma-vipaka, as the Buddha says that, it is wrong to think that everything happens due to what was done in the past because kamma-vipaka can also be a cause.
It seems like the answer to the question in SN36.21 has been given for the question asked by King Milinda, which is a bit mis-leading.
Though Ven. Nagasena says that the wounding of the Buddha’s foot is not because of bad kamma this is not what is said elsewhere. “Even to the Buddha himself it happened that, as a result of former deeds, Devadatta was able to cause him a slight injury.”
Also in this same light when Angulimala (an arahanth, who has burnt out all evil within himself) was hit by rocks by people while walking on the road, can this also be only due to external agency? The Buddha says here, “Bear it, brahmana, bear it, brahmana! You have experienced here and now the ripening of kamma whose ripening you might have experienced in hell over many a year, many a century, many a millennium.” From this it can be seen that both external agency as well as kamma-vipaka played a part in Angulimala getting hurt.
This also shows that one does not need to repay all the kamma to attain nibbana. If one has to repay all kamma to attain nibbana, Angulimala would not have been able to attain nibbana until he repaid all of it in hell. The level of vipaka he would have had to experience in hell cannot be even compared to getting hit by stones and rocks.
AN10.217 and AN10.218 does not say that all kamma needs to be repaid. In AN10.219 it is said “The noble disciple understands: ‘Whatever bad deed I did here in the past with this deed-born body is all to be experienced here. It will not follow along.’” This is consistent with what the Buddha told Angulimala.
However, I need to find a sutta reference to kamma being the root / primary cause. If anyone does come across something please let me know.
Hi Siebe,
Here are a few examples of the Buddha and other Arahanths who suffered bodily pain after attaining enlightenment. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel312.html
“Yet there were still a few who could not forget that Angulimala the bandit, with his superior prowess, had shown them in their weakness and thus had humiliated them. Out of that resentment, as an act of revenge, they were mean enough to injure the venerable Angulimala by throwing stones and sticks which struck him when he had gone for alms. They must have done so from a safe distance.
Then with blood running from his injured head, with his bowl broken, and with his patchwork robe torn, the venerable Angulimala went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming, and he told him: “Bear it, brahmana, bear it, brahmana! You have experienced here and now the ripening of kamma whose ripening you might have experienced in hell over many a year, many a century, many a millennium.”
Being a saint, his mind and heart were firm and invulnerable. But the body, the product of former craving, the symbol and fruit of previous kamma, was still there in present existence and was still exposed to the effects of former evil deeds. Even to the Buddha himself it happened that, as a result of former deeds, Devadatta was able to cause him a slight injury. Also his two chief disciples had to experience bodily violence. The venerable Sariputta had been hit on the head by a mischievous demon, and the venerable Maha-Moggallana was even cruelly murdered. If this occurred in the case of these three Great Ones, how could Angulimala have fully avoided bodily harm — he who in his present life had committed so much evil! Yet, it was only his body that received these blows, but not his mind. That remained in invulnerable equipoise.”
So what I take out of this is that the primary cause for any vipaka (bodily pain in this case) has to be due to kamma. However the other 7 causes may also be there for the vipaka to materialise. This is the ananthara-samananthara paccaya. So there will be no vipaka (pain) if there is no kamma. However the other 7 causes can be more prominent than the kamma.
This is why the Buddha said that one cannot and does not need to repay all one’s kammic (sansarik) debt to attain nibbana. Eventhough one is an arahanth ss long as one has the (vipaka / flesh) body he can experience vipaka from kamma. When an arahanth attains parinibbana he is freed from that viapaka pain as well. Lal explains this is Saupadisesa and anupadisesa nibbana.
Also we have to understand that the suffering (dukka) that the buddha talks of is not the bodily suffering.
Hi Siebe,
you said, Nagasena also denies that the pains of the Buddha were Kamma Vipaka.
From what I have heard the pains experienced by the Buddha were due to kamma vipaka. For example he had a back pain and this was due to him (when a Bodhisatta) breaking someone’s back in a wrestling game. Kamma was also the reason that the Buddha and a group of monks did not receive any Dhana and were offered only horse food for a period of 3 months.
So you may want to double check what has been said by Nagasena.
Hi Johnny,
In my opinion this vegetarianism argument or the belief that being a vegetarian is the most compassionate way is mainly due to the lack of a basic understanding of how kamma works. I think Lal has explained this well in his posts. Of course understanding of aniccha and how the 31 realms operate helps tremendously as well.
Hi all,
I have not read the Sutta’s so I will not comment on them, but this is how I understand this topic.
For any effect there are causes. not just one cause but many. Kamma always plays a part in it, it is the underlying cause but may not be the major cause. A good example is to take a boy hitting a cat. If he hits the cat with his bare hand we will say that he hit the cat with his hand. If he hits the cat with a stick we will say he hit it with a stick. Now, when he hit the cat with the stick, was the hand involved? It definitely was, but we refer to as”hitting with the stick” because the stick was the main cause or more prominent. So in this way there can be numerous causes like weather or genes which are more prominent (like the stick) but the kamma still has a part to play and is the underlying cause (like the hand).
A person will not have some sort of bodily pain if he doesn’t have some sort of kamma to give that specific vipaka. This is how we can explain why only some people get sick even when others are exposed to the same external conditions. If there is no kamma to be repaid he may not get sick.
If a person decides to cross the road with his eyes closed, that is a foolish act, but he will only get knocked down by a car if he has a previous kamma to give vipaka in that particular way. That is why everyone who crosses the road without looking does not get knocked down, while people sitting inside a shop may get knocked down by a car that skids off the road. In conventional terms we call this luck. I see that luck being caused by kamma. In Buddha Dhamma there is nothing called luck or random events, all events have causes.
If one decides to stand on one leg, the initial thought that came across to his mind that he needs to stand on one leg may be due to a kamma vipaka, but if he is wise enough he will not take that action. Thus he does not have to go through that pain. But if he does decide to stand for long on one leg, the physiological aspects will come into play, and now we might only focus on them and not the initial decision taken to stand on one leg.
What the Niganta’s in the Buddhas time were doing was to stand on one leg to erase the bad kamma collected in previous lives. The Buddha saw that as foolish, as not all vipaka is due to past kamma in previous lives. Some are due to kamma in this lives as well. Just like standing on one leg. The decision to stand on one leg is a kamma in itself.
Hi Siebe,
The Buddha has mentioned that if one sees the dhamma it is only then that one will see the buddha. So in this sense, I think “seeing the buddha and understanding the unfathomable nature of the Buddha does not refer to his bodily form. It is something deeper, like his “gathi” and “guna”. Which connects with what Vince talks about.
I’m not sure if the Buddha has mentioned that he is omniscient, but he has mentioned that what he has preached is just a minute bit of what he knows. So for all intents and purposes we can think of that as being omniscient. So yes, an arahanth will not understand all that a Buddha has understood. For example the Buddha says that only a Samma Sambuddha can fathom the intricate details of how Kamma works and for others not to try understand the details. So even Sariputta, who was second only to the Buddha in wisdom, was not be able to comprehend that.
The Buddha also says that only another Samma Sambuddha can truly see and comprehend the nature of a Buddha. So this can be taken to be the unfathomable nature of the Buddha.
Hi Johnny,
I can relate to you in that I am also a very skeptical person and will always have a counter argument or theory for anything, may be even to the point of being cynical. I grew up in Sri Lanka and was exposed to the traditional Theravada Buddhist tradition plus Christianity and Islam through relatives and friends. I had this feeling that there was something substantial in all these religions but I always saw faults in all of them. I was reading widely and had a thirst for knowledge and in this process varied causes lead me to the puredhamma site. Thanks mainly to Lal and other Theros in Sri Lanka I started to realise that the Sa-dhamma (pure dhamma) actually was the correct path. However I still had all sorts philosophical questions, and indirectly was questioning the teachings. So I think this also would fall into Udacca-kukkucca.
However the more I contemplated and understood the anicca, dukka, anatta nature of the world the more I understood different areas of the dhamma. The more it all fell into place. Some questions I had, I simply put away as they do not help this path. So what I have come to realise is that as I progress on this path, the teachings of the Buddha seem to be more and more correct. So in this same logic I believe that the points he has mentioned that I cannot grasp at the moment have to be correct as well. I guess this is the sadhdha aspect.
Sorry if this is a bit long, just thought I should share my experiences as well.
I also had this same problem some time back and was trying to figure out what all of this (nibbana) meant. This may sound cliche, but the only way to understand what it, is to really see it. Or at least glimpse it. And the only way to do that is to understand anichcha, dukka, anaththa and keep looking at the world with that understanding.
I was trying to explain the cooling down feeling to a friend and realised that it is very hard to explain it, as the words I was using had very different meanings in a worldly sense.
As Lal has explained in his post, the best way to explain it is through the extinguishing of a fire. When a candle is extinguished, the wax, the wick, the oxygen is still there but the light / fire is no more. So the fact that the fire is no more is something that we can see in this world but, then again the “lack of the fire” is not really in this world too. Again it is very hard to explain as we are using worldly concepts.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Seng. Atta Vimokka is explained in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta. The link to the pali is; https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Buddhist-Texts/D16-Mahaparinibbana/22-Vimokkha.htm
In the Puggala pannatti, a panna vimutta person is explained to be someone who attains nibbana through wisdom (panna) without experiencing the “atta vimokko”.
So when considering both these explanations the term “atta vimokko” (atta vimokka) can be taken to mean the 8 jhana while vimutta (vimukta) can be taken to mean becoming free (nibbana) like Lal has explained.
Any other ideas? or other places anyone has come across these terms?
