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The new post will hopefully be helpful to clear the above issues:
Paṭicca Samuppāda Creates the External World, Too!
- Feel free to ask questions to clarify any remaining issues.
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Have a safe trip and a productive time learning Dhamma!
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Also see “Sīla, Samādhi, Paññā to Paññā, Sīla, Samādhi.”
- Some of the difficulties in maintaining a calm mindset can be eliminated by abstaining from dasa akusala. The first step is to keep the five precepts.
- More suggestions in “Key to Calming the Mind – The Five Hindrances”
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I am beginning to think that a main reason that many people have difficulty in understanding the “distorted sanna” (“kama sanna,” in kama loka) could be one of the following two reasons:
- They had not realized that for “distorted sanna” to arise, not only must living beings’ bodies (both manomaya kaya and the physical body) but also the external world must arise via Paticca Samuppada.
- Some may have seen #1 above in my explanations, but they cannot believe it to be true.
I am glad that Yash asked the above questions. His questions made me realize the possibilities mentioned above. If those are relevant issues, please let me know, and I can provide further clarification. If you have doubts, the only way to proceed is to get them clarified.
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“So it means that we have never really experienced the external world in its absolute form? “
- Yes. Even though that is how the world operates (to provide the “distorted sanna“), that operation is ultimately based on a deeper reality, rooted in Paticca Samuppada.
- That is why Buddha Dhamma is called “paramatta Dhamma,” where “parama atta” means “ultimate truth.”
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“So we have never really seen, smelt, tasted, touched and heard any external thing?”
- No. As I mentioned above, even Arahants, or the Buddha himself, perceived the world in this way, because the external world and our bodies are designed this way via Paticca Samuppada. They also taste honey to be sweet, or a particular woman to be attractive compared to others, for example. However, their minds have fully comprehended how that “distorted” perception (sanna) originates and thus do not attach to it.
- This is the issue to be grasped to understand Buddha’s teachings at the deepest level. I have been trying to explain this for the past three years in several different ways.
- Everyone knows that avijja (ignorance) means “not to comprehend the Four Noble Truths, or alternatively, Paticca Samuppada.” This is where one can truly understand them and start dispelling the remaining avijja and the tendency to attach to the “distorted” perception (sanna).
- This “distorted” perception (sanna) is so deeply embedded in our minds that even after “seeing it” at a basic level (at the Sotapanna stage), it takes an effort to overcome it. That is where one needs to cultivate the second stage of Satipatthana (“kama sanna,” which is the “distorted sanna” relevant to kama loka, is overcome at the Anagami stage). I have provided an overview in the current post: “Satipaṭṭhāna – What Does It Mean?“
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Yash wrote: ” I know that even monkeys like fruits just like us but why is it so with the Devas? They don’t have a physical body to eat the fruit and gain nutrition so why do they experience good Sanna for these things?”
- These must be Devas in the lowest realm. They live among us, i.e., on the Earth’s surface, unlike higher Deva realms far above. There is not much information about them in the suttas, so we don’t know enough details. They probably have physical bodies denser than other Devas, but subtler than ours.
P.S. Note that it does not say they eat fruits; they absorb the aroma of fruits. Even those Devas do not have a digestive system like ours. They just absorb the aroma.
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Yes. You got the basic idea!
- The sanna generated depends on both the specific species (human, lion, cow, insect, etc.) and the external object.
- All of these are made with suddhatthaka, which consists of eight components: pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, gandha, rasa, and oja. See “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
- It is the matching of those pairs that provides specific sanna for a specific species.
Yes. I think you summarized the current capabilities of AI well in your following statement: “In any case, the current models are not in a position to do this, as they are essentially trapped within their universe, i.e., the totality of all training data. This makes it impossible for them to think outside the box and be creative and innovative.”
- As I also mentioned, AI can only summarize, but it does it well.
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You wrote: “I believe that models that are able to create completely new theories are possible in principle. Every scientist has developed their own theory based on other theories and research findings.”
- Yes. However, when examining the “chain of progression” (where one scientist builds upon the previous accomplishment of another), all of them contributed an original idea to help the process move forward. That progression eventually leads to a significant breakthrough by a scientist who is fortunate to have the previous accomplishments of others to build upon. But that last step may require an especially bright mind.
- What I tried to say is that AI (as of now), cannot come up with such an original idea (breakthrough concept) anywhere in that “chain pf progression.”
P.S. Regarding your first question: “Do you think the AI’s interpretation of the sutta is acceptable?”
- Yes. AI seems to have summarized both versions reasonably. Of course, it does not compare the two to make a judgment on which is better.
- I wonder whether it will do so in a more complex concept, like Tilakkhana.
Yes. This is a somewhat complex subject.
1. One way to start is to consider how a given object (say, a red apple) is perceived (with sanna) by different species. An apple is the same object, but is perceived differently by a human and a lion, for example.
- A human perceives an apple to taste good. But lions do not eat apples; they do not perceive it to be desirable. The “rasa component” in an apple is the same regardless. The only difference is that the sense faculty of taste in a human is different from that of a lion. That “matching” happens via Paticca Samuppada. I have discussed how cows prefer the taste of grass, while humans do not. There is a “rasa component” in grass that matches the “taste faculty in a cow” to provide an attractive sensation.
- One’s sense faculties are designed according to the “gati” that led to that type of birth. A lion’s birth results from violent deeds, and that birth is designed to live by killing. The birth as a “hungry ghost” (peta or pretha) results from “stingy gati” or greediness. It is a complex subject, but that is the basic idea.
- All living beings and the environment in which they live arise through Paticca Samuppada.
2. The physical body of a given living being (human, lion, cow, etc.) incorporates details that we cannot even start to fathom.
- Let us consider ‘color.’ There are no colors embedded in any object. However, the “vanna” component in the object can cause it to appear in a certain way to a specific species. We see a red apple as red. But some animals do not see in colors. Bats do not “see” with eyes. They navigate by monitoring sound reflections. You can search and read about it.
- The color of an object (as seen by a human) depends on the light reflected by that object, and also the specific sensors in the eyes of a human. That is the “matching” that happens via Paticca Samuppada. A lion’s eyes may not have the same type of sensors. A bat does not have “eyes with color seeing ability.”
- The following video can help understand the basics of color vision.
- Let me stop here for now. Think about the above and then ask further questions as needed.
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Thank you, Jaro. Very interesting.
- I just scanned through it, and AI seems to have done a decent job of summarizing.
- We can discuss if anyone has questions.
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AI has the benefit of being able to analyze a large amount of text in a short time.
- However, I have always wondered whether it will be able to “think for itself” and come up with new ideas and discoveries.
- Not relevant to this topic: Will AI be able to make discoveries on its own? For example, consider Newton’s discovery of the laws of gravity or Einstein and others’ discovery of quantum mechanics. My belief is that it will not be. I think it is only a way to summarize large amounts of existing information and provide a summary very quickly. But we will see. I believe this is what they refer to as “general intelligence,” and they (Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Demis Hassabis, etc.) think it can be achieved within a few years.
There are many people and bhikkhus delivering thousands of discourses like this. It is not necessary to listen to every one of them.
- The purpose of this forum is to discuss the posts on this website. I would be happy to answer questions about what I write. Discussing and especially analyzing discourses by others is not a good idea. Those questions should be directed to the person who delivered that specific discourse.
- If anyone has a specific question about an external discourse, I can look into that and provide my input if appropriate. Otherwise, please refrain from posting random external discourses.
Here is another point to think about.
Stacy wrote: “Waharaka Thero redefined anicca not merely as “impermanence” but as the inability to maintain things to one’s liking, directly tied to taṇhā and the illusion of control.”
- One engages in immoral deeds (via the body, speech, and the mind) because one believes such actions can lead to happiness. That is believing in an “icca nature” instead of an “anicca (na icca) nature.” (Remember the adopted convention to write anichcha as anicca, i.e., to pronounce “c” as “ch” in writing Pali words. Many people in Sri Lanka do not realize this.)
- Those immoral deeds are done due to (abhi)sankhara.
- As I mentioned above, (abhi)sankhara arise in the mind due to avijja, i.e., not realizing that one will be unable to maintain things to one’s liking.
- Of course, there are things that “work out well in the short term.” For example, one selling drugs to make money may even live well until dying, but the consequences will be realized as rebirths as an animal or worse. Thus, in the long term, those efforts involving (abhi)sankhara (with raga, dosa, and moha) can only lead to suffering.
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1. Jittananto initiated this thread by quoting a person (let’s call X) who criticized Waharaka Thero’s interpretation of anicca. At the end of the quote, person X says, “I invite anyone who is familiar with waharaka thero to point out any errors I have made in quoting/paraphrasing him, and forgive me for any errors or any offence from this post.”
- Perhaps Jittananto can invite him/her to join the discussion.
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2. Stacy has provided some key insights into problems in the X’s critique. I can also provide the following observations for X to consider and respond to.
- Of course, “impermanence” is a feature of anything in the material world. Modern science has proven that not only everything on Earth, but also all stars and planets in the entire universe, are impermanent. However, the Buddha pointed out that it is a result of the ‘anicca nature.’
- The impermanence associated with material things we like leads to suffering when they inevitably become damaged or broken. Impermanence associated with those we love leads to suffering when they get sick or die. We all are destined to get old and die, too! All this is suffering. But, again, impermanence is the result, not a root cause.
- We cannot eliminate the suffering associated with impermanence by just observing the fact that everything is impermanent.
- The Buddha explained that impermanent “things and living beings” arise due to living beings not comprehending the “anicca nature” and engaging in immoral deeds. The root cause is a mental process!
- The Buddha did not elaborate on the origin of the inert material things because that is not necessary to attain Nibbana. He explained in detail how each living being generates kammic energy to fuel their future lives. That is the Paticca Samuppada process. It is a fully mental process! It begins with avijja (ignorance) and culminates in bhava (kammic energy that can generate future lives), resulting in jati (future rebirths). Those kammic energies are generated through (abhi)sankhara caused by avijja. That is the bridge between mind and matter (mind energy leading to subtle matter in a manomaya kaya or gandhabba)!
- When one begins to understand the deeper aspects of the Paticca Samuppada process, one can also see how even the external world arises through Paticca Samuppada. Only a brief description (without getting into Paticca Samuppada) is given in the Aggañña Sutta. See “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction ” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).” Again, it is a waste of time to spend time on that process.
- But it is good to know that everything in this world is based on “mental power.” See “Manōpubbangamā dhammā..” which means “mind is the precursor to everything.”
P.S. Also, the reason for anything created via “mental energy” to be impermanent: Mental energy (or any energy) can last only a finite time.
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I may not have discussed the following point in the above-referred post, “Is Cakkhu Viññāṇa Free of Defilements?“
- The chart in #3 in that post shows kamma generation in two stages: “purāṇa kamma” (initial weak kamma) and “nava kamma” (new strong kamma).
- The beginning of the “purāṇa kamma” stage is where initial kamma generation takes place with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna.” These saṅkhāra are not potent, and they are called saṅkappa. This can be called the “vipāka viññāna” stage. That is why it is called “avyākata.”
- Potent kamma (that can bring vipaka in future lives) happens in the “nava kamma” stage with saṅkhāra. That happens after the “taṇhā paccayā upādāna” step (with strong kamma with speech and actions with the physical body: lying, stealing, etc.)
- More information in “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
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