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“Most Venerable Bhante Nivanthapa Thero (Abbot of the monastery) told the audience, “Give me the bible, the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita, and I will show you Nibbāna.””
- Did he actually say that? Is that an accurate quote? It is hard to believe!
“The primary reason is that seismic waves don’t indicate the presence of a large liquid layer beneath the crust. If there were an ocean-like layer under the plates, we would expect clear seismic wave disruptions, but we don’t see this.”
- These are the same type of arguments based on mundane understanding (sañjānāti and vijānāti).
- It is best to spend time understanding that the basis of “modern science” is sañjānāti and vijānāti. I devote my time to Buddha’s teachings based on pajānāti, the true nature.
- I have no more comments on this subject. We have more important things to discuss. The point is that if the foundation is not solid, there is no point trying to “fix” (or “patch up”) the building built on that foundation. All mundane (including scientific) knowledge is based on “distorted saññā.” Time is better spent understanding how “distorted saññā” arises and its profound implications. Of course, it is not easy. It is a different paradigm. Even a few of my close friends don’t believe that and I no longer argue with them. I tried for years. Most are too focused on their “scientific work” and pay no attention to Buddha’s teachings; they don’t even have the time to “take a look.”
1. The problem is we tend to believe whatever science says. Of course, many things science says are true. But science is a “work in progress.” It keeps improving slowly. The following extract is from the post “Dhamma and Science – Introduction.”
“1. Even a few hundred years ago, scientists believed our Earth was the center of the universe: “Geocentric model.”
- Therefore, Buddha’s view of the universe as consisting of innumerable “world systems” was not looked at favorably even a few hundred years ago.
- Of course, that has changed now. Buddha’s statement that “there is no discernible beginning to life” is also becoming vindicated with each new scientific discovery.”
I discussed a few other examples in the post.
2. Taryal asked: “Is the translation above correct? If so, why does it say that the earthquake is caused due to the blowing wind when it is primarily the role of tectonic plates?”
- How do you (or scientists) know that the movement of tectonic plates could not be due to the shifting of a liquid mass underneath it?
- Scientists have not drilled far down enough to see what the Earth’s core is made of. I find the following: “The deepest hole scientists have drilled into the Earth is the Kola Superdeep Borehole in Russia. Located on the Kola Peninsula near the Arctic Circle, this scientific drilling project reached a depth of 12,262 meters (approximately 12.3 kilometers or 7.6 miles) in 1989. The borehole was part of a Soviet research effort started in 1970 to study the Earth’s crust and upper mantle.”
- Earth’s diameter is roughly 12,742 kilometers (7,918 miles).
- So, they have only “scratched the surface.”
- The Buddha did not provide any details, and I will not speculate. But my point is no one knows for sure. Yes. The shifting of tectonic plates could be the “immediate cause” But that could be due to the other reasons. We don’t know enough about the Earth’s core to say for sure.
3. There are deeper aspects to this discussion. I have discussed some in “Cognition Modes – Sañjānāti, Vijānāti, Pajānāti, Abhijānāti” because it is related to the concept of “distorted saññā.”
- All investigations by scientists are based on sañjānāti or vijānāti.
- However, the ultimate reality is different.
- As I pointed out before, Buddha Dhamma is based on a different set of axioms than science, which is why debates are useless.
- When one tries to understand Buddha Dhamma through “mundane logic,” that does not work. There is a paradigm change involved.
- This is summarized in the phrase “atakkāvacaraṁ” (beyond mundane logic/inquiry) in the “Ajāta Sutta (Iti 43)” that describes Nibbana.
4. In another example, we believe things around us are “solid.” However, even the hardest substance we know, diamond, is mostly “empty space.” Our eyes “see” things with a wavelength band that is a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Dasa akusala kamma patha are listed in the “Saṅgīti Sutta (DN 33)“: “pāṇātipāto, adinnādānaṁ, kāmesumicchācāro, musāvādo, pisuṇā vācā, pharusā vācā, samphappalāpo, abhijjhā, byāpādo, micchādiṭṭhi.”
Dosakkhayo asked:
“A sotapanna may not always be able to discern whether someone is an arahant.
So, what if a sotapanna tries to swat a tiny mosquito but accidentally strikes an arahant instead, causing the arahant to fall, hit their head on a rock, and die? In this case, what kind of kamma would the sotapanna generate?
As far as I know, a sotapanna cannot generate the kamma of killing an arahant.
If this is true, is such a situation karmically prevented?
In other words, is it absolutely impossible for such a situation to even exist, where a sotapanna accidentally kills an arahant while trying to swat a mosquito?”
- Yes. A Sotapanna will be “naturally protected” from such an accident.
With the other example, Dosakkhayo asked: “Does this mean that a sotapanna cannot commit panatipata at all?”
- Sotapanna is capable of committing a killing (not likely to kill a human unless under extreme conditions). He is prevented from killing an Arahant or a parent even accidentally.
- The bottom line is that a Sotapanna is prevented from doing an anantariya kamma. That is a law of Nature. We cannot explain how that works.
From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):
“There are four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?
“The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge) is unconjecturable and not to be conjectured about.
“Details of jhana (including supernormal powers that one can attain).
“The precise workings of the results of kamma.”
“Origins of the world.”
– These are the four things that are not to be investigated (because they are discernible only to the mind of Buddha), that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.”3 users thanked author for this post.
We hope you are fully recovered. Please keep us informed of your progress. Consider the incident a temporary roadblock.
“.. is it possible that we may get confused between nibbana and asanna state?”
- Yes. This is a good question.
- I know some people who got into trouble by trying to “get rid of perceptions” willfully, by force.
- For example, one dangerous technique is to remove all thoughts that come to one’s mind. If this is done for a long time, one could lose memory (and perception, i.e., become asañña). They will even forget to eat or cannot recall where the bathroom is! They are reborn in the “asañña realm.”
- Memory is intrinsically related to perception (saññā). Our goal is not to be fooled by saññā, not to lose saññā! See “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).” P.S. As we have discussed, Arahants still taste honey to be sweet or a particular woman to be attractive; but their minds are not fooled by such “distorted perceptions.”
- The Buddha said to stop IMMORAL thoughts, not ALL thoughts. There is a big difference between the two. Furthermore, he encouraged cultivating moral thoughts (One interpretation of Anāpāna is “āna” AND “āpāna”; see, “6. Ānāpānasati Bhavana (Introduction)“.
- Many people wrongly advise that one needs to remove ALL THOUGHTS from one’s mind to attain Nibbāna. Once, a Deva expressed the same idea to the Buddha: “Isn’t Nibbāna attained via removing all thoughts?”. The Buddha replied, “No. Nibbāna is realized by removing greedy, hateful, and ignorant thoughts”. That account is in the “Manōnivarana Sutta (SN 1.24).”
“Whenever I see people of different religions on YouTube talk about how their religion is true and everything else is false and if you don’t follow them, you will be burnt in hell forever. This is about abrahmic religions. These things kind of depress me and make me anxious and I feel like why do they say this?”
- That is a waste of time and indeed could be the cause of your anxiety.
- People do all sorts of weird things. What is the point of trying to make sense of their actions? How does that help us understand the root cause of suffering? They are already on a wrong path. We already know that, so why worry about it? There is nothing to learn from their activities.
- Even criticizing their actions is foolish. They do things because they believe in them, and there is nothing we can do about that. Such actions on our part can only lead to conflicts and losing our “peace of mind.”
1 user thanked author for this post.
“I have been experiencing immense fear that also causes my hands and legs to shiver when I am focusing on the “me” part. “
- Why do you focus on “me”? Did the Buddha ever teach that?
- In ultimate reality, there is no “me.” What happens to an Arahant upon death? Was there an “I”? Only the suffering ceased.
- Things happen due to causes and prevailing conditions (Paticca Samuppada.)
- We need to focus on how suffering (pancupadanakkhandha or our experiences) arises. When we understand that, we will realize how to prevent it from arising.
- However, DO NOT start with the idea of “deleting me” either. Just understand how our minds respond to sensory inputs. We focus on how a mind attaches to sensory experiences. There is no need to make it “my mind.”
If you can explain precisely what you meditated on (if that is OK), we may be able to understand what happened.
Thank you for the document. I had not seen it.
- Of course, this issue does not affect our goal of attaining Nibbana.
- Still, many people are interested in this issue. I believe that the truth will eventually reveal itself.
The difference between rupa jhana (corresponding to the mental states of rupa loka Brahmas) and arupa samapatti (corresponding to the mental states of arupa loka Brahmas) is pointed out in #5 of “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction.”
- It must be clear that there is no 9th jhanic/samapatti state per Zapper’s question.
- Once one transcends the fourth arupa samapatti, one attains Arahanthood.
- Ancient anariya yogis (including Uddaka Ramaputta mentioned in the Tipitaka) were able to proceed all the way to the highest arupa sampatti (nevasaññānāsaññāyatana). But they could not transcend that (and to separate from the world, i.e., get to Arahanthood) because all of their samyojana (sansaric bonds) remained intact. To break those ten samyojana one must comprehend the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana. As explained in many posts, it is a stepwise process for a puthujjana (via Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant).
- Our Bodhisatta achieved that during the night of his Enlightenment (and became a Buddha).
1. I revised the link in Zapper’s comment to point to the verse he quoted: “And so, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, my defilements were ended.”
- In Pali: “So kho ahaṁ, ānanda, sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharāmi, paññāya ca me disvā āsavā parikkhayaṁ agamaṁsu.”
2. At the Arahanthood, a mind completely separates from various “distorted saññā” associated with the world of 31 realms.
- That process of overcoming the “distorted saññā” associated with all three lokas (kama, rupa, arupa) happens stepwise for an ubhatovimutti Arahants; Buddha attained the Buddhahood that way, too.
- Once overcoming the “kama saññā” (triggering the mind-made “sensual pleasure” perception) associated with the kama loka, one gets to the Anagami stage. Then one must overcome the “rupa saññā” (triggering the mind-made “jhanic pleasure” perception) associated with the rupa loka (there are four jhanic states discussed in the suttas). Then, one must overcome the “arupa saññā” (triggering the mind-made “arupa samapatti pleasure” perception) associated with the arupa loka (there are four arupa samapatti states discussed in the suttas). Thus, there are eight jhanic/samapatti states with the last one being “nevasaññānāsaññāyatana” (dimension of neither perception nor non-perception). In that state, the “distorted saññā” is so weak that it almost goes away, but because the arupa raga samyojana still remains intact, it comes back.
- In the final step, that arupa raga samyojana is overcome too, and the mind is fully released. That is the ninth state referred to: saññāvedayitanirodha or cessation of perception and feeling. Here “saññāvedayitanirodha”is “saññā avedayita nirodha” meaning one would be released from the (distorted) saññā associated with that last (eighth) samapatti state of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana.
3. Thus, the battle for Nibbana involves overcoming the “distorted saññā” associated with all three lokas (kama, rupa, arupa).
- A pannavimutti Arahant gets there without going through the stepwise process.
- For example, Ven. Bahiya may have arrived at Nibbana directly from the kama loka without cultivating rupa jhana or arupa samapatti. That certainly seems to be the case for Minister Santati, who had just returned from a battle. They were both pannavimutti Arahants.
- Some may have attained Nibbana (Arahanthood) via a low-lying specific jhana or a samapatti.
- One would be an ubhatovimutti Arahant only if one goes through all the nine steps.
Thanks to Zapper for pointing out this sutta!
I had mistakenly provided a wrong link in the above comment. It should be “Anupada Sutta (MN 111).”
- I just corrected it in the above comment, too.
- My apologies for the confusion.
“But perhaps there is little one can know without exposure to Dhamma?”
- Yes. That is the key. Unless a Buddha or a disciple of the Buddha explains these concepts, no one can figure out the Buddha Dhamma, i.e., the ultimate laws of nature.
- These “ultimate laws of nature” (embedded in Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana) can be discovered only by a Buddha. That is why the birth of a Buddha is so rare; it is not easy to attain the Buddhahood. Sometimes 30 maha kappas (i.e., trillions of years) go by without a Buddha appearing in the world.
- That is why we should not miss this opportunity. It is a “once in a trillion years” opportunity.
1. First, it is a good idea to link a sutta in the following format, where each verse is allocated a marker: “Anupada Sutta (MN 111).”
- If a Sutta Central sutta does not show the markers, type #1.1 at the end of the URL, and the sutta will be reloaded with the markers. For example, the URL in the link you gave has “script =latin” at the end. Just add “#1.1” to it to become “script =latin#1.1”
- Also see the URL in my link above to get the idea.
- Once you get that format, click on any specific marker number, and the URL will indicate that marker. (You can also manually change the marker number in the URL.)
- It will be helpful for EVERYONE to use this format, so we can refer to marker numbers to point out specific verses.
2. I set the link to highlight the start of your quote in your comment above (“For a fortnight he practiced discernment of phenomena one by one.”)
- @marker 3.1 it says he attained the first jhana (referred to as “first absorption” in the translation) “..paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
- @marker 5.1: He attained the second jhana and so on until @marker 19.1 it says Ven. Sariputta attained saññāvedayitanirodha: “..saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
- That is when he became an ubhatovimutta Arahant!
- That sequence of events (where he went through all the jhanas and samapattis to get to nirodaha samapatti at the Arahanthood) happened two weeks (a fortnight) after he attained the Sotapanna stage.
3. So, I think you are confused in some way.
- If I missed anything, please refer to the relevant verse numbers/markers when explaining.
There is no mention of nirodha samapatti there. When clicking on the asterisk, it says the following:
- Ven. Sariputta attained the Sotapanna stage while listening to a single verse by Ven. Assaji (at that time he was a disciple of Sanjaya).
- Then he abandoned Sanjaya as his teacher and became a follower with the Buddha (became a bhikkhu.)
- A fortnight later, he attained the Arahantship.
