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“But can’t we say that seeing happiness in what is suffering, seeing attractiveness in what is repulsive, seeing self in what is not self (like the body seeing as ‘I am this body’) and seeing permanence in what is impermanent is in fact wrong view too?”
Yes. In the end they are related to the 10 types of wrong views you listed.
What do you think “seeing happiness in what is suffering” means? (or the other ones that you mentioned). Let us start with some examples you can think about.
“careless attention” is used in there for the translation of “yoniso manasikara”.
Here is the full sutta:
“Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, ayonisomanasikāro. Ayoniso, bhikkhave, manasi karoto anuppannā ceva micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā ca micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhatī”ti.The basic idea stated in the sutta is:
“Bhikkhus, unarisen (new) wrong views arise and arisen wrong views become worse due to none other than ayoniso mansaikara“.
The critical thing to realize is that ayoniso manasikara is much more deeper than than just “careless attention”.
Ayoniso manasikara is of course the opposite of yoniso manasikara.
A given person with no comprehension of Dhamma/adhamma (what is moral/what is not) can pay his/her utmost attention and still have those problems: arising of new wrong views and the growth of existing wrong views.
Yoniso manasikara explained at: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“.
One should always be mindful of not doing dasa akusala, and learn correct Buddha Dhamma. That is the closest to acting with yoniso manasikara. As one makes progress, one will have better yoniso manasikara.
Siebe said: “Can we really know the conditions for such breaktrough moments?”
That is true. There are many things that we cannot really explain with our limited understanding. Only a Buddha can “see” these things in full detail. For example, we will never figure out why there are only 17 citta in citta vithi. That is just how Nature works. Even the Buddha just DISCOVERED such laws.
– Another factor is that full understanding of a certain issue may come from a different angle, while comprehending a different subject.
– In any case, it is not bad to try to examine a given concept in depth. It is called “vimanasa”.However, I think I have given a reasonable explanation to the key question about why listening can be more powerful than reading the same words (and the words uttered by an Ariya can have a stronger effect than the same words uttered by a normal person, even with recordings).
– We cannot find explanations for each and every issue in Abhidhamma. It is not possible to write everything down. In fact, the Tipitaka was transmitted orally for several centuries before it was written down. I am amazed that it has just enough information, and most of the time we can fill in the blanks.
– If we fill-in-the-blanks with wrong stuff, that will become obvious sooner or later, when compared with another issue. If so, we need to take care of that, and that is how we make progress.
– That is what is meant by “self-consistency”. Everything in the Tipitaka is self-consistent.@Tobias:
You are right. I have revised #11 on that post as follows:“11.Now let us consider the consequences of sankhāra in this life, that we mentioned in #6 above. Suppose a teenager starts associating with bad friends and start drinking alcohol. Initially, he does not even like the taste of it, i.e., he may be generating a dōmanassa vēdanā due to the taste of alcohol. But with the insistence of those friends he continues drinking.”
“Then he makes a habit (gati) of it, begins to perceive the taste as a sōmanassa vēdanā, and starts making sankhāra about drinking. Even while in the middle of some other task, he starts thinking about the next party where he can drink, and what types of drinks there will be and so on.
Now “sankhāra paccayā viññāna” step in the paticca samuppāda leads to making a “new viññāna for drinking”. The more he thinks about such parties and generate those sōmanassa vēdanā, the more viññāna, nāma rupa, etc that he makes for such “drinking events”.
And the stronger that “viññāna for drinking” gets, the more he will be thinking about it (making more sankhāra). Then the habit is strengthened; see, “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View”.I may have made similar mistakes in other posts. Thanks for finding them for me.
You said: “Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.
Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.”
I am on travel, and don’t have access to my resources. But the more I think, I believe that “sukha/dukha vedana” are felt just by the body (kaya).
As discussed in the Kama Guna post, “sweetness of sugar” is a characteristic of the human bhava. Until an Arahant’s physical human body dies, he/she will feel that somanassa vedana.
It comes via “jivhanca paticca rasanca uppaddati jivha vinnanam“, “tinnan sangati phasso“, “phassa paccaya vedana“.
The somanassa vedana is indeed produced by “samphassa with gati”. The gati in this case are not just with the Arahant, but anyone in human bhava. “Sweetness in sugar” is a “human gati”; see the post on Kama Guna. For the Arahant, that gathi will also go away at Parinibbana; it is there only as long as that last human body is alive.
However, the next step: “vedana paccaya tanha” does not arise in the Arahant. That is the difference.
See: “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa”
We can discuss more if needed. This is an important point.
Sorry. I did not catch that in #1 when I revised it today.
Just revised it to: “Attaining magga phala — including Arahantship — do not have such set requirements (at least I have not seen).”
Hi Akvan,
“Does this mean that a human with niyatha miccha ditti may be born again as a human after his death, if he has not expended his kamma for a human bhava.”Yes. If it is not an anantariya kamma he will be born human to the end of the human bhava.
“However, if it means that a person with niyatha miccha ditti is born in the lower realms after his kamma for the human bhava is expended, then these stories do make complete sense.”
That is indeed the case.
@upekkha100:
Can there be a difference between spoken words and written words if they have the same words?
– This is the point that we seem to have finally converged to.There could be a big difference. Let me give an example.
Suppose a little child is about to touch a red-hot cooking surface, because it looks attractive. If the mother sees that, how would she say, “Don’t touch it!”?.
– The tone of her voice will tell the child it would be dangerous to touch it. The child would immediately pull back.On the other hand, if someone watching just said, “Don’t touch it!” without any emotion in the voice, the child may not even hear that. Even if she hears it, she may not pay any attention to it.
– But those are exactly the same words!That “tone of voice” is captured in a recording.
Vince asked: “Could the fact that I was ordained during the time I absorbed all of this information be another factor to consider? How significant of a role would it play in accelerating one’s progress and also, is it possible to bypass that need to physically hear a sound to attain magga phala if one is absorbing Dhamma while one is ordained?”
Yes. It would definitely play a role in making understanding concepts easier. When one is living the life of a bhikkhu, there are less things to worry about, and one’s mind could expected to be relatively more calm. Furthermore, the environment is more peaceful and calm too.
– However, per that sutta that I quoted earlier, attaining Sotapanna phala happens only while listening to an Ariya, whether one is a bhikkhu or not.It is also important to note that this listening requirement is not there for higher magga phala. The help of an Ariya is needed only for the attainment of Sotapanna phala.
You can read the following post and see whether it answers your questions. I just revised it:
Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?Johnny_Lim said: “A fighter pilot is a soldier. A soldier’s job is to defend his own country against enemy’s threat, which implies destroying enemy forces – taking lives. Deliberate attempt to destroying lives is very bad kamma. We are talking about human lives here. Interestingly, we do not see immediate rebirth of these people into hell for performing such unwholesome acts. Instead, they are reborn as human beings.”
As discussed in the post, “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“, a human bhava can last thousands of years, and one could be born many times with a human body during that time. Johnny probably knew, but forgot about that.
Only if one does an anantairya kamma (like killing parent or attaining a jhanic state, for example) that this rule will be broken.
– Someone who has killed a parent will be born in an apaya when this physical body dies, even if there is kammic energy for the human bhava remains.
– In the same way, one who has attained a (anariya/Ariya) jhana, will break the human bhava and will be born in the corresponding brahma realm at death.The fighter pilot did not commit an anantariya kamma, even though it was a strong bad kamma. The rebirth process as a human will continue for him until the kammic energy for the human bhava runs out.
– But at the end the end of this human bhava, the next bhava will be determined by which past kamma (including those killings a soldier) will be the strongest. Cuti-patisandhi or the “grasping of a new bhava happens at that time.“As I understand javana is part of citta. But is javana also part of the physical sound or the sadda rupa?”
I think we can say that there are two possible contributions from one’s speech.
- The actual javana power is emitted when one speaks (or even consciously thinks). These are the real “sadda rupa” or suddhashtaka that are emitted due to the citta generated in one’s mind.
- However, the “message” embedded in spoken words can be reproduced in a recording. Again, I explained this in the previous post.
– These are part of the “aura” emitted by our bodies.
– As I said before, it is likely that these “citta kirana” that are emitted by citta (also called “cittaja rupa”) could affect the listener.
– We do not know what fraction of the “total effect” comes from this.The relative contributions of the two effects may not be quantified. It probably depends on the speaker/listener combination too.
Even if the speaker is the same, two people even listening at the same time may not get the same benefits. It will depend on the listener ability grasp material as well as the listener’s state of mind (even a person with a sharp mind may not be able to grasp the message, if the mind was agitated at that time).
An idea about the complexity of this issue can be seen by listening to Dhammaruwan’s recitals in the post, “Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years“.
– I added a recording from him as an adult in #6; some of you may not have seen that if you read the original post. I made the addition later.
– It is very clear that the chantings of Dhammaruwan as a child is much more powerful than his recital as an adult. Therefore, that “effect” had been captured in the recording.In other words, even though the javana power emitted only during the time one’s conscious thoughts are generated, a significant part of the “effect” of the actual speech is captured in a recording.
The actual “sound wave” can be repeated in a recording, as I explained in the previous post. The sound wave hitting the ear drum of a listener is pretty much the same.
We can also see this when we think about the fact that millions of people can learn about a given subject by listening to a tape of recorded instructions these days.
Magga phala citta (attaining the Sotapanna stage) happens DURING listening to a desana.
However, one may not realize it until even a few weeks later, when one starts realizing that some of one’s gathi have changed.
“What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor.”
That is a good observation. Here is another thing to think about: kama guna that are based on one’s bhava:
Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda
Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.
Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.
– However, since “somanassa” is defined as a “mental construction”, sweetness of sugar would not count as a somanassa vedana either!
– May be it is a “mental construction” that happens AUTOMATICALLY based on bhava.
– For example, humans like the taste of sugar, but a pig does not, which likes the taste of feces. So, just being a human one feels sugar as likable or tasty.What Vince said is true for making general progress.
Upekkha100’s question is specifically on attaining the Sotapanna stage. In the Sotāpattiphala Sutta (SN 55.55) it says: “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti..”
So, “saddhamma savanaṃ” or “listening to correct Dhamma” is one of the 4 requirements to attain the Sotapanna stage.
Now, as upekkha says: “I would think that the energy that was emanating from the Ariya’s mind(as the desana was being delivered) would be able to reach the mind of X.” is likely to play a role.
The question is whether that “live listening” is necessary or whether a recorded desana is sufficient.
We may never get a conclusive answer, but Waharaka Thero probably had some valid reasons to say that it would be sufficient to listen to a recorded desana by an Ariya.
Here is another thing to think about:
As I explained in an answer to another question today, we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works.Sound waves are transmitted through air as waves of air compressions, just like water wave that propagate outwards when a stone is dropped in water.
– Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate.
– Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” (this is how a microphone converts spoken words to an electric signal too) which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.Now, when a recorded signal is played back, it re-creates that same sound wave propagating through air. Therefore, whether listening alive or via listening to a recording, one’s ear drums will generate the same signal.
Therefore, other than effect of being exposed to the “javana energy of cittas” while listening to a live desana (mentioned above), the actual sound reaching the sota pasada rupa will be the same.
So, while it could be better to listen directly, listening to a recorded desana is likely to be enough.
From the accounts of some people at this forum, and also according to those who have listened to Abhaya Thero’s desanas on internet, listening to a recorded desana seems to be sufficient.
The post being discussed is: “Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa”
One way to separate domanassa and somanassa vedana from sukha and dukha vedana is that the former two have associated “mental factors (cetasika)” generated.
So, they are also called “cetasika sukha or cetasika dukha”. Those do not arise in Arahants and arise due to one’s defilements (getting attached to it becoming joyful or being repelled by it and becoming irritated).
The ear-piercing sound is really a dukha vedana (due to vipaka) that is associated with kaya, not the ears (sota indriya).
– Here we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works. Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate. Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.- So, the dukha vedana created by an “ear-piercing sound” is actually due to the high perturbation of the ear drum (part of the physical body), a physical sensation. If it is really strong, the ear drum may be damaged and one could feel pain just like due to a wound.
- Of course, one could also generate domanassa vedana due to being irritated by that.
An Arahant would feel the first (physical), but not the second (mental) due to that “ear-piercing sound”.
I see a lot of good advice. Here are a few more.
Merit giving is always good. You can “give” only after “gaining”. But that “gain” could come in many ways: when one gives to the poor, animals, and especially to bhikkhus, one “gains” merits for oneself, which one can the share with all beings, in one’s mid. One can also gain by doing satipatthana (being mindful). When one has avoided a bad kamma by being mindful, one will feel the “joy”, which again one share, etc. One can also gain by doing vipassana (insight meditation) by contemplating on Dhamma concepts (dasa akusala, five precepts, anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, etc).
One can gain “niramisa sukha” or “cooling down” just living a simple life. When we try to accumulate too many material things (thinking that they will provide us with pleasures), they only increase the burdens that we are already carrying. That does not mean one should give up everything. One needs certain things live this life. But the minimum one can live is the best. One has to be wise in making decisions though. For example, there is no point in paying for a “high end car” costing a lot money, but one should not buy a cheap car that breaks down often too (if one can afford); buying a “really cheap” car would only add more problems to handle, when it starts breaking down.
By the way, I would not worry about whether devas exist or not. We can see the suffering of humans and especially animals. Think about the pain suffered by an animal while being eaten alive or an old person without anyone to help. When I see those old people begging, I wonder what they would do when they get sick. That generates a lot of compassion. Then it is only natural to give merits to all such beings in this world. There are countless beings in much worse conditions.
So, we must not be depressed even if we do have problems. Everyone does. We just need to try to minimize the suffering by acting mindfully. Most of the things that we can do are not that hard to do. We just need to slowly start seeing the “hidden suffering” in things that we perceive to provide pleasure. Just like a fish bites into a “tasty looking” worm on a hook, we tend to overlook the suffering hidden in sense pleasures. Simple life is a happy life.
It may be a good idea to read of the posts in the following sections. Each person’s level of understanding is different. So, one can read different sections and see which ones resonate with oneself.
“Moral Living and Fundamentals”
“Living Dhamma“
