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You are right. Those words are not found commonly in the suttas, at least to my knowledge.
May be the reason is that when one truly understands Dhamma (basically the unfruitful nature of this world) or pariyatti, one will automatically gets into practice (patipatti), and one will inevitably realize the fruits (pativedha).
Most of the time is spent in learning the background material, getting rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi, and then truly understanding Tilakkhana: the unfruitful, suffering-filled, nature that tends to make one become helpless in the rebirth process.
When one gets to that stage, all three are fulfilled to some extent. It is just a matter of time (relatively speaking), when they are fully completed.
However, there is another way of looking at this: In order to understand Tilakkhana (and to get to pariyatti), one must first follow the mundane eightfold path and get rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi. That goes hand-in-hand with living a moral life. So, at that level, pariyatti and patipatti can be said to go together first.
Then when one starts on the Noble Path by almost simultaneously getting to fulfilling all three to some extent.
Just my initial thoughts. I had never thought about it much before you asked the question.
Siebe said: “I believe the unconditioned is the stable.”
That is exactly right. But only an Arahant is at the unconditioned state. The question is how does one get to that stage: step-by-step. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.
A related point:
When Siebe says he cannot see a difference from day-to-day (in the first post), that is because he is not “seeing it with panna”. This is actually what most of us perceive.
– We don’t see a change from day-to-day, but the change is apparent to the “physical eyes” only over a relatively long time. Same with the mind: Our minds do not see any change from day to day (that is because our gati do not change that fast).We need to learn to “see” with wisdom (panna).
We know that we have changed physically over the past 10 years, say. We can even look at a picture taken 10 years ago and even see with our own eyes.
However, we may or may not be able to see the change over even a year by looking at an year-old picture.
– But if we think about it, we will realize that we much have changed somewhat over a year, because a few years more and we will be able to see the change.We can keep doing this division to shorter and shorter times. Logically, even over a second, we would have changed at least a minute fraction.
– That is how one “sees” the change with wisdom. The change is incessant, it never stops. We just don’t “see it”.If we don’t make an effort, the change is to the down side.
– If we don’t exercise or eat well, our physical bodies will degrade over a year. In the same way, if we don’t make an effort to be “more moral”, the natural tendency is to “enjoy the moment” and the consequence will be to “worse gati” over a year for sure.Of course, in order to see a “big improvement” of our gati, we must comprehend the anicca nature. That will help us stay away from unwise immoral actions (and more importantly immoral thoughts).
As we discussed in “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“, our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara) play a huge role here, in helping comprehend the anicca nature, and thus in changing one’s gati.
P.S. The book “The Power of Your Subconscious Mind” by Joseph Murphy gives a mundane version of how our thoughts (the way we think) can make a huge difference. The more we think in a certain way (good or bad), our subconscious mind changes accordingly. This is another way of saying that our gati change according to the way we think.
Good observation. I had not seen that. Thank you!
Yes. There are many short suttas in the Sutta Nipatha and Anguttara Nikāya, that summarize key concepts.
” Is there a real basis for this, is there something that does not change?”
There is NOTHING in this world that does not change.
It depends on exactly what you are trying to change.
Once you figure that out, you need to figure out what MUST BE changed in your THOUGHTS, SPEECH, and ACTIONS that could lead to the change you are seeking.
If you found out the right causes, AND if you follow through what MUST BE done, then the change will happen OVER TIME.
P.S. I was thinking about this a bit more.
- A material thing like our body can be “improved” to some extent only up to the middle age. After that one cannot reverse the inevitable decay with time.
– Basically everyone knows what to do to make a physical body “better”: exercise and eating well. - Our minds (and thus the progress on the Path) can be changed for the better for a longer time. But when one gets to really old age, the brain (which is physical) starts decaying and that will make any more progress impossible.
– The basic suggestion by the Buddha to make one’s mind better is to remove lobha, dosa, moha from one’s mind.
Y not said: “If only we were able to always put ourselves in the shoes of ‘that other’ most of these questions would not even arise.”
That is really the bottom line. In fact, that was Buddha’s advise to the people of Kalama in the Kalama Sutta.
Put it in another way: Nibbana (cooling down), starting from the very basic level is to remove greed, hate, and ignorance (greed and hate arise due to ignorance).
- So, if a given action causes one to be uncomfortable that is due to greed, hate, ignorance arising. This is what is called “taapa” (or “heat”) in Satipatthana. One should avoid such actions.
- On the other hand, returning a lost item to the owner (whenever possible) is a non-greed, non-hate action done without ignorance. That always lead to joy in the heart in both people, opposite of taapa.
Both actions lead to cooling down of the mind.
Hi Akvan,
Of course, I knew that and I said so.
You said: “I was just trying to explain how in an ultimate (pramaththa) sense the ownership of things work. And also trying to explain how the ultimate (pramaththa) laws may defer from conventional and legal rules. .”
The conventional laws do not need to be different from ultimate (pramaththa) sense, especially in cases like ownership. If conventional law and order breaks down, we will have a chaotic situation. If one can just grab something from another, would not that lead to chaos?
The point is that when one makes progress on the Path, he/she will not care much if someone else takes things from him/her. The “sense of ownership” goes down. That is true. But we cannot impose that on the whole society, because law and order will break down.
I can see that the precept about “musavada” (making “adhamma as dhamma”) is different from “conventional lying”. But I don’t see how stealing can be justified in any way.
Because this involves breaking a very fundamental precept of not hurting another person: “In a similar way, if B steals something from A, say by grabbing his bag and running off, in the ultimate sense the ownership of that bag changes from A to B after the point that B takes hold of the bag. ”
“Panca upadanakhanda being compared to drinking the poison, seems to imply that suffering begins at the upadana stage(pulling object of greed/hatred closer), rather than beginning at the tanha stage(getting attached).”
- Yes. That is correct.
“Is there a deliberate reason why the Buddha called it “panca upadanakhanda” instead of “panca tanhakhanda?”
- The reason is in the above statement.
It is the upadana that we have control over, not tanha.
If it was tanha that leads to “bhava” WITHOUT having the upadana step in between, then no one will be able to attain Nibbana.
This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. If this is not clear to anyone: Please read the thread from the beginning and ask questions. Be specific what the sticking point is.
To put it in another way, attaining Nibbana is really about getting rid all gati, especially the “bad gati” in the beginning.
– When we get rid of a certain gati over time (by controlling upadana via controlling vaci and kaya sankhara), tanha associated with that gati will be removed eventually.
– One becomes free of the apayas by removing “apayagami gati” or “those gati that makes one do bad kamma that can lead to rebirth in the apayas”. That is the way to the Sotapanna stage. It becomes easier to get rid of”apayagami gati” when one starts grasping the anicca nature.Akvan said: “Let’s take an example where person A loses an object and drops it on the road. In the ultimate sense after A drops that object, he loses ownership of it and no one owns that object.”
Legally that is true.
However, that thing one may have dropped could be one’s wedding ring, or some critical and valuable thing over which one may lose sleep. It will be hugely beneficial to see if it can be returned to the owner.
As I said above, each case needs to be evaluated on its own. There is no need to worry about trying to return a dollar bill that one finds on the road.Akvan said: “In a similar way, if B steals something from A, say by grabbing his bag and running off, in the ultimate sense the ownership of that bag changes from A to B after the point that B takes hold of the bag. ”
That will not even hold legally.
That is a clear case of stealing or adinnadana. If that is not stealing, I don’t know what is. That is a very dangerous way of thinking. Of course, I know that Akvan does not act that way. But even to say that is not a good idea. Someone may latch on to that idea.y not said: ” it is hard to resist going back to enjoying something one likes(of course, in cases where you are thereby not harming any one else in any way). I myself cannot resist, to quote the example Upekkha gives, listening over and over again to a song I like. I see nothing wrong in it at all, per se..”
Perhaps it is easier to understand this difference between tanha and upadana by taking a more extreme example.
Suppose one trying to break the habit of taking drugs. Initially, when the urge comes (due to tanha), he may go along with more vaci snkhara and will get “worked up” to the point that it will be impossible for him to not to use it.
Suppose he gets better at resisting the drug use, but keeps thinking about it. He may be able to resist for longer times, but at some point he will not be able to resist. So, it is a bad idea to think that “just thinking about it not so bad”. If one is really motivated, one MUST at least keep reducing the time that one is “day dreaming about it”.
The Buddha explained it this way: One cannot live more than seven days without food AND water. One will die.
– But if one stops taking food, but takes in just water, one can live for several weeks.
– That is the analogy for killing a habit. If one stops BOTH kaya sankhara (actual act) and vaci sankhara (thinking about it), then one can kill the habit in a relatively short time.Breaking a habit involves stopping food (associated bodily actions or kaya sankhara) and water (vaci sankhara).
– So, one can break the habit of taking drugs in a shorter time (say a month) if he has the discipline to stop taking it AND also stop thinking about it.
– But if he stops taking the drug but goes on enjoying thinking about it (vaci sankhara), then he may go on without suing drugs for months and months, and one day he may lose the resolve and take the drug.
– In fact this happens to a lot of people who are trying to stop taking alcohol or even stop eating too much. They may temporarily stop those activities, but months later they break it. That is because they had not stopped generating vaci sankhara!Of course, I am not saying that listening to music is bad. But if one is working to get to the Anagami stage, that can be a hindrance. Of course, by that time one would have seen the “unfruitfullness” of listening to music. It is all relative. As I pointed out in a recent post, it is a step-by-step process to Nibbana.
“Day dreaming” or “not being mindful” involves thoughts that are related to greed, hate, and ignorance (lobha, dosa, moha or lower versions of them). That is the easiest way to think about it.
Focusing one’s mind on breath also belongs to the ignorance category.
Yes! I am really glad to see that you have grasped it correctly.
“So at the automatic mano sankhara stage, only tanha and attachment is there. There is no upadana at all in the mano sankhara stage?”
- That is rght. One may get attracted to something based on one’s current gati. Those mano sankhara arise automatically, as we discussed in the post, “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)“.
- Upadana or “pulling it closer” happens with vaci sankhara, when one consciously start thinking about how nice it would be to “get hold of that thing”, whatever it is.
- Even if one does not act to get possession of it, one may enjoy just “day dreaming” about it. This is a dangerous process and not many people understand how bad (addictive) that can be.
- In the “upadana paccaya bhava” step, one does not necessarily need to take action to make “bhava” or “kamma beeja”. Conscious thinking (vaci sankhara) is enough, if done long enough.
So, when you say, “If this is the case, controlling sankappa/assada is not a trivial matter. It is the key to gradually start reducing tanha and eventually removing it.”, that is exactly right.
As for #3: The fish seeing the bait and immediately getting attracted to it is tanha. Then actually thinking how nice would it be to taste is upadana.
Of course, a fish does not have much of a neocortex like we do to “think about it”. It just goes with the first impulse; basically tanha is followed automatically by upadana, and then also acting on it.
Of course, even if we all have the neocortex, many of us do not make use it. It needs to be used in order to really become effective. This is why it takes time to cultivate Anapana/Satipatthana. It gets easier with time to “slow down and think about the consequences”, and not to act on impulse.
Yes. It depends on the person. Abhidhamma is not necessary, but if one likes it, then one can see much deeper.
– Abhidhamma is more precise, and in fact when are there unresolved issues with sutta interpretations, one has to fall back on Abhidhamma.“Say one comes across a fruit tree in the woods or finds a valuable object in a public place. In both instances, one is taking, if he does, that which is not given.”
We can clarify these by looking at the “intention” (whether there is greed involved), and also “whether anyone will be harmed by a given action”. That is the bottom line.
In the case of the fruit tree in a forest, it does no harm to anyone to eat a fruit from it. So, that is not theft.
But in the latter, there is someone who lost that item. So, if there a “lost and found” office at the public place, one should return it there.
But if one finds a valuable thing lying on the road, say, then it is fine to take it, unless there is a way to find the owner. If it is really valuable one could give it to charity on behalf of the (unknown) owner.
So, depending on the situation, we can figure out what to do.
“How is it said here that a Sotapanna has the license to be exceedingly heedless? The translation cannot be right, I sense. He is free of only apayagami deeds.”
- Yes. The translation could be better. What is meant is if one attains the Sotapanna stage, then even if one is not diligent (i.e., does not strive hard), one will attain Arahanthood within 7 seven bhava (which could be a long time, by the way; even one existence in the human realm could be many thousands of years; in deva and brahma realms it could be millions or billions of years).
- These are called “dhammata” or “laws of nature”. Buddha did not dictate them, he just discovered them.
“What is the correct translation of the verse : Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,”
– It says even if one is “extremely negligible” or “not taking an effort at all”. But that probably meant to indicate one’s behavior in the current life where he just attained the Sotapanna stage.
– Obviously, one will “catch up” in later births or at least later bhava. He still has a long time!““Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
QUESTION: What is meant here by ‘concealing'(any evil action)?…and ‘such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path? Is it because the one on the Path has now become so authentic, so true to himself and to others,so transparent, that he does not even try to conceal it because he has no interest to do so? Is this what is implied here?”
- The verse above this one says there are six kamma that a Sotapanna is incapable of doing: killing mother, father or an Arahant, seek refuge in anything other than Buddha Dhamma, commit niyata micca ditthi, and Sangha bedha. (These are not listed there).
- So, it is POSSIBLE that a Sotapanna could do any bad kamma outside of those, but UNLIKELY. Even if he is forced to do something, he will not do so willingly and will not be able to conceal it, if done. He will show remorse without doubt; he will not be able to conceal it.
– However, he will never be ABLE TO do a kamma that could make him be reborn in the apayas.
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That is exactly what I am saying.
It is better to use Pali terms, when it comes to complex key words like these, and understand what is meant by those words.
For example, vinnana is translated as “consciousness”, but it is much more complex: “Viññāna – What It Really Means“.
Same for sanna and many other words: “Saññā – What It Really Means“.
A human gandhabba will be born with a human body many times during that human bhava.
An animal gandhabba will be born with an animal body many times during that animal bhava. For example, a “dog gandhabba” will be born only as a dog, not as any other animal.
The gandhabba state remains that same until that existence (bhava) runs of kammic energy. When that first dog dies, the “dog gandhabba” comes out of that dead body and waits until another suitable “dog womb” becomes available, at which time it goes into that womb and will be born again as a dog. That dog may not look the same as the first one, since the parents are different. But it si the same gandhabba.
Gandhabba is the “mental body”. It cannot change from a human to a dog or dog to a human, until the kammic energy for that bhava runs out.
But if a human dies the last death in that human bhava, he may be born as a dog in the next bhava. OR he can be born as a deva in the next bhava, in which case there is no gandhabba. A deva will be born with a full deva body and live in that way until the kammic energy for the deva bhava runs out.
See, “Bhava and Jati – States of Existence and Births Therein” and “Gandhabba – Only in Human and Animal Realms“.
- A material thing like our body can be “improved” to some extent only up to the middle age. After that one cannot reverse the inevitable decay with time.
