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From SN 25.1: “. .abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti.”
The key word is “tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ” or “time expiration”. Many people translate it as “time expiration for the current physical body”, but it could mean “time expiration for the human bhava”. In either case, it is a negligible time in the samsaric time scale.
– One will not be reborn in the apayas.upekkha100: Yes. What you stated is correct.
On the last one, the sequence given in the sutta is: kāyānupassanā, vēdanānupassanā, cittānupassanā, and dhammānupassanā.
However, one can actually do all of them at the same time. Being mindful involves first three, and that can be done anytime.
Dhammānupassanā is best to be done when one can contemplate at a quiet time.
Sotapanna Anugami is also a Noble person, one of the “attha purisa puggala”, or the “eight Noble persons”.
So, a Sotapanna Anugami must have a tihetuka birth.
Vedana and sankhara and two different things.
In the five aggregates we have: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara,and vinnana.
As you pointed out earlier, vedana and sanna are mano sankhara. So, they are part of sankhara, but they are separated from vaci and kaya sankhara because they (vedana and sanna) arise with each and every citta.
So, vedana is very different from vaci and kaya sankhara.
I think it will become clear if you had read the following post:
Vedana (Feelings)The website is getting bigger, so it may be hard to figure out where to start.
Anyway, let us keep the discussion going, because these are important issues. I can see you are making a strong effort, so I want to help you figure it all out.
Mahendran said: “It seems and sounds like an extraordinary experience to have attained a jhana.”
Actually — for those people who had attained jhana in recent human lives — it is not that hard to get into (anariya) jhana.
It is like once one learns how to ride a bike, that habit stays. Even if one does not ride a bike for many years, it would be easy to do.
Upekkha100 said: “As per MN44, vedana is in mano sankhara. Mano sankhara is defined as vedana and sanna” AND “And mano sankhara(vedana/sanna) are automatic/unconscious due to our gati, thus we don’t have conscious control to stop this step.”
Those are correct. Vedana and sanna are universal cetasika and they arise in each and every citta.
Upekkha asked: “ Is samphassa ja vedana(somanassa/domanassa) in mano sankhara or vaci sankhara? I’d think mano sankhara, but the reason why I’m not sure is because it has been described as what sounds like vaci sankhara to me.”
Samphassa ja vedana are initially mano sankhara. They also arise according to one’s gati. That is critically important to see. An Arahant does not have samphassa ja vedana.
Upekkha asked: “The part about stopping samphassa ja vedana-this does not mean to actually stop the feeling itself right? Because we can’t help it, it is automatic and super fast. Does this mean more along the lines to stop the automatic samphassa ja vedana(mano sankhara) from escalating into vaci sankhara/kaya sankhara?”
One cannot stop samphassa ja vedana as they arise. Just like in getting rid of tanha, stopping samphassa ja vedana REQUIRES Satipatthana/Anapana (via gradually reducing/getting rid of one’s gati).Does that make it clear? If not, we can discuss more. It is important to clarify these issues, since they are the basis of Satipatthana/Anapana.
P.S. I just revised the post in question and gave it a new title, “Vēdanā and Samphassa Jā Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings“.
Also read: “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
Siebe said: “To know that one is living does’t that need citta vitthi’s running?”
Do you feel that you are living while you are in deep sleep? An extreme case is when one becomes unconscious.
Only while awake one can feel one is alive.
Siebe said: “I learned bhavanga is also the state in which we are when we are in deep dreamless sleep. Is this correct?”
No. Even in deep sleep there are atiparittarammana citta vithi running for breathing. But those do not have javana citta, and thus one does not feel them. Of course, in between those atiparittarammana citta vithi, mind is in bhavanga.
Here is a summary of jhana to my knowledge:
Jhainc states correspond to the mental states in the brahma realms. The first four jhanas correspond to the rupavacara brahma realms and the higher jhanas correspond to the arupavacara brahma realms.
The jhanic experience is the same whether they are Ariya or anariya jhana.
The critical difference is the following: Kama raga (cravings for sense pleasures including sex) and patigha (tendency get angry) will be SUPPRESSED (vishkambana pahana) while in anariya jhana. But if one can get into even the first Ariya jhana, then kama raga and patigha would be completely REMOVED (no anusaya remain).Therefore, if one can get into the first Ariya jhana, one is an Anagami.
In the same way, avijja is SUPPRESSED at the fourth anariya jhana, but is REMOVED at the fourth Ariya jhana. That means one is at or close to the Arahant stage if one can get onto the fourth Ariya jhana.
Therefore, only that person who is experiencing a given jhana can determine whether it is an anariya jhana or an Ariya jhana.
It is not necessary to have any jhana to attain a magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage.
On the other hand, one could be a Sotapanna and may have anariya jhanas.
There is nothing “bad” about anariya jhana. All jhanas are mental states corresponding to brahma realms, and one would be born in that realm at death. The difference is that one with an anariya jhana (without magga phala) will come back to human and even lower realms in the future. One with an Ariya jhana will never come back to the kama loka at all. A Sotapanna with an anariya jhana will also not come back to kama loka.
These are discussed in detail with sutta references at: ‘Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna”. More details at: “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala“.
Personally, I have not experienced the fourth jhana, where one is totally covered with white light (according to suttas). It is not that others can see that white light; that is what one in jhana “sees”.
I do believe that many people who have attained Ven. Abhaya’s meditation sessions have attained the fourth jhana (I have watched a few youtube videos where their experiences are described). But the question is how many of those are actually Ariya jhanas. Only those persons would know.
If any of your friends like to share their experiences, that would be great. Many people at this forum are not able to watch and understand those videos where jhanic experiences are described by the participants of Abhaya Thero’s sessions.
Siebe said: ” I always thought that life is somehow maintained by this continuum of citta’s from one life to the other.”
There are no citta for a being in the asanna realm during that whole lifetime. Life is always maintained by the kammic energy.
In sanna-vedayita-nirodha, there are no citta vithi or bhavanga.
See:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna SamāpattiSiebe said: “I only want to share the experience that craving, greed, urge can be very very strong and hard to resist.”
Of course. that is the key issue.
One cannot make progress without overcoming these cravings. This why the Buddha said: “Strive as hard as you can”. Results do not come automatically. One has to work at it.
However, it is also essential learn Dhamma so that one understands the MAIN REASON for getting rid of those cravings: The hidden dangers in them. When one sees the dangers, one will be motivated to overcome cravings. Again, it is a step-by-step process.
Upekkha100 said: “These bodily sensations only come during formal meditation right? “
It is possible that one could feel these bodily sensations outside formal meditation sessions. Formal sessions are helpful to get one’s mind to be focused. But if the javana power is strong enough one can feel the effects any time.
This is quite clear from the cases 1 through 3 you listed. It is the “inner feeling” or “how strongly one feels” that matters. This is why just reciting verses is not effective. One must understand the embedded idea and must feel it too.
The following is an extreme case, but conveys the idea: It is said that one could get into jhana in a split second, when one gets really good at it. And that can be done in any of the four postures: sitting, standing, walking, lying down.
– I don’t like to discuss these too much, because these could distract people from following the Path to attain magga phala, which is THE foremost goal. So, we should not focus on these “effects”.
– On the other hand, one MUST BE aware that “bodily sensations” COULD occur, and that those are natural.A more mundane example: We have heard reports of people doing rather difficult tasks under unusual conditions. I once heard a report where a small-made woman lifted the side of a car to rescue her child. Of course, she was unable to repeat it under normal conditions.
Christian said: “Goosebumps are not related to the spiritual process”.
I am not sure what you mean by “spiritual processes”. There is nothing mystic about what upekkha is experiencing, as I explained with that last example. What upekkha is experiencing is not that different from what that lady was able to experience.
– Even jhana are not mystic processes. It is just that most of us are not aware of the full capabilities of the mind.Furthermore, experiences are highly personal. What one person may experience may not be experienced by another person. That person may experience a different effect. Some people even experience “pressures”, “tingling sensations”, or even temporary discomforts; see, #15 of “Can Buddhist Meditation be Dangerous?“.
-Some people may not feel any “bodily feelings” and may get to magga phala. It is highly personal.Upekkha100 asked:” Do these goosebumps indicate the javana of a citta(higher potency)?”
I guess upekkha’s original post was made in the Abhidhamma Forum because of the connection to javana citta. However, this is an important topic that would be of interest to anyone doing formal meditation sessions. That is why I moved it to the Meditation Forum.
In the second post upekkha quotes this from an external link:
“From that link:
“In religious literature, the prickly feeling is also mentioned as an accompanying aspect of deep contemplation and meditation..”Yes. What upekkha is feeling could be early signs of getting into deeper samadhi. It has nothing to do with asmi mana and moha. In the contrary, upekkha is moving away from asmi mana and moha.
When one starts getting into deeper samadhi, one starts “feeling it” in the body. This may come in several different forms: goosebumps, needle pricks (not painful just heightened sensation), pressure points in the body or the head, etc. Some of these are discussed in, “Possible Effects in Meditation – Kundalini Awakening“.
When one switches from the regular metta bhavana to Ariya metta bhavana (with some comprehension of Tilakkhana), the javana power of cittas is indeed increased, as upekkha wondered. Then one’s thoughts become much more powerful, and they will affect one’s own body.
Even in anariya meditations, as long as one’s mind is temporarily released from kama sankalpana (that means not only sexual thoughts but also thoughts about any type of sense plesures), the javana power of citta are increased. It is not only kama sankalpana, but also thoughts about mundane things like worrying about job-related problems, worrying about kids, etc. This is why those ancient yogis were able to get into anariya jhanas by going into forests and staying away from sense attractions AND also interactions with other humans.
However, when we follow the Path of the Buddha, we don’t need to hide away from the society. The calming of the mind comes through understanding the true nature of this world.
I just wanted to add the following:
It is a good idea to do a “formal meditation” session too. This will help one’s mind to settle down, especially in the early days.
– This just means sitting down in a quiet place and either contemplate on a Dhamma concept or recite a kammatthana while contemplating on its meaning.
– One may be able feel “bodily sensations” when one gets deeper into samadhi.Formal sessions are also good to get into jhanas. While our objective is not jhanas, especially those with “jhanic experiences in recent past lives” may be able to get into jhana relatively easily.
– However, it is important not to get attached to such jhanic experiences.
– In particular, one should ignore any “colored lights” or objects (some people see religious symbols) that come to mind. These could be distractions and even dangerous.
– Some may get deeper into jhana and see “white light”. That is good, but one should just ignore that too.
– The bottom line is that any light or symbol belong to this world, and should not be the “thought object” in Ariya meditation.Dr.J Chakma said: “1) There can be approximately 600 citta vithi per second if all six senses are actively working, followed by 1800 manodvara citta vithi (3 mind door citta vithi follows every sense door citta vithi). Because human brain takes approximately 10 millisecond to process a sense input. ”
That is true in the case of pancadvara citta vithi. The “time lag” of approximately 10 milliseconds takes for the brain to process a signal coming though the five physical senses. However, the time lag could be smaller, since the brain may be able to process signals coming from the five physical senses in parallel. So, the time lag could be smaller by a factor of two. In any case, these are estimates based on current scientific findings. The actual numbers could change.
Regarding #2: While the brain is processing those external signals, the mind could be in a bhavanga state or in an active manodvara state. It is a complex situation.
The only thing we can say with certainty is that the mind — at a given time instant — will be in just one of the following states: processing a pancadvara citta vithi, processing a manodvara citta vithi, or in a bhavanga state.
Jhana (or phala) samapatti is a special case, where a single manodvara citta vithi can run uninterrupted for hours.
