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This has been explained in detail:
Thank you, Tealer, for the detailed posting.
I think it is a good idea to first see the difference between cetovimutti and pannavimutti Arahants.
– I had started writing a post on the Tapussa Sutta that explains this well. So, I was able to finish it today, and I just published it:
“Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)– Akuppā Cētōvimutti”We can discuss more if you have questions. Please refer to the bullet numbers in the post, if you ask specific questions on it.
upekkha100 asked: “Can someone be able to radiate boundless metta to all sentient beings to that level of a brahma, when they still have kama raga?”
You have given the answer below that too.
When one has extreme version of kama raga (abhijja), the power of the metta bhavana is the weakest. One is just reciting without much effect.
– It is stronger when abhijja is reduced to kama raga stage.
– It is even stronger when one has no kama raga, but has rupa raga and arupa raga left.
– It is stronger when only arupa raga is left.
– It is strongest when all are eliminated by removing both tanha and avijja (i.e., for an Arahant).Put it in another way, the javana power of a citta is increased as one gets rid (or at least suppresses) avijja and tanha.
– Of course, removal is better than suppression, AND removal requires the comprehension of anicca nature (Tilakkhana).P.S. “A Simple Way to Enhance Merits (Kusala) and Avoid Demerits (Akusala)“
1 user thanked author for this post.
Akvan wrote:
“This is how I have understood all this;There are two types of sotapanna anugami (Sotapattiphalasacchikiriyaya paṭipanno) based on their dominant faculty. The pragna dominant person is a dhammanusari and a saddha dominant person is a saddhanusari.
There are three types of sotapanna based on the time they will take to attain nibbana; sattakkhattuparamo, kolamkolo and ekabiji.”
I have been able to look into this a bit more, and your above conclusions are correct.
The only remaining questions are regarding the time it takes to attain the Arahanthood.
I need more time to verify, by it seems that there are no set time limits for the dhammanusari and the saddhanusari (Sotapanna Anugamis) to attain the Arahanthood.
– However, they will NEVER be born again in the apayas. So, the post, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās” is accurate.
– I will write a post, but may take some time. I am going through some medical issues.@Tealer: I think we can resolve this issue if you can provide the key suttas which led to your conclusions.
Mahendran sent me a desana and a writeup on Devanussati. Since both are in Sinhala, no point in providing the links.
– However, Devanussati does not involve encouraging people to seek births in deva realms.
– However, one must do deeds while cultivating Noble Path, in order to purify the mind and such punna kamma do lead to births in human and higher realms.Mahendran wrote:” my confusion is due to the fact that I am under the impression that all the Devas are good. ”
I have provided evidence that all devas are not good: “What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?”
– Mara Devaputta is in the highest deva realm, yet he tried to put obstacles in the way for the Buddha, because he did not want people to attain Nibbana.Mahendran wrote: ” it is said that bhavana yogis need to think of the five characteristics of the Devas, ( sadhdha , sila, shrutha, thyaaga and pragngna)..”
That is the root cause of the problem. While some devas have them (especially those with magga phala), not all devas have them. But of course, they received that good birth due to at least some of those qualities in a PREVIOUS life; see below.
– If Mara Devaputta had pragngna (the correct Pali word is panna, meaning wisdom about the true nature of this world), then he would not have tried to block people from practicing Buddha Dhamma.
– Some Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka try to highlight the benefits in births in deva worlds. That is exactly what Mara Devaputta tries to do too.
– While it is good to realize that deva births are good births due to good deeds, one must realize the futility of getting deva births in the long run. Most devas indulge in sense pleasures and are reborn as animals (many of the beautiful birds had deva births in the previous life).The key point to understand is that devas are another type of living beings, with more sense pleasures than humans. They get that birth mainly due to dana and sila (giving and moral living).
- There is nothing wrong with giving merits or even making offerings to devas.
- But one should NOT seek REFUGE in any living being, other than Sangha (By the way, bhikkhus do not necessarily belong to Sangha. Only Noble Persons belong to Sangha and some bhikkus are Noble Persons; of course, one should ALWAYS pay respects to bhikkhus because they do represent the Buddha Sasana).
- One should take refuge only in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.
Mahendran wrote: “So if Mara likes to entice people for pleasures and also doesn’t know about the consequences of such pleasures, does he lack some of those five qualities?”
Of course. The birth as Mara Devaputta was due to good kamma. But Mara himself has bad qualities.
– It is no different from some humans have very bad qualities, i.e., they kill, steal, etc. They also have relatively good births due to PAST ACTIONS.One’s current birth is due to past kamma.
– If one is now engaged in bad kamma, one will get bad births in the future. If one is engaged in good kamma, one will get good births in the future. That is what we all have been doing for an infinite time.
– The problem is that most of those births are bad (in the apayas), because living beings, by nature, tend to do bad things to get sense pleasures.When one realizes this fact, one would try to get out of the rebirth process as explained to Māra himself by upacālā bhikkhunī: “Upacālā Sutta (SN5.7)”
– English translation: “7. Upacala“.1 user thanked author for this post.
@ Mahendran: I can comment on that only if I can read/hear about that reasoning. If you can publish a link, I can take a look at it.
Mahendran wrote: “Now the other question that comes to my mind is that how can Mara and other Devas have influence on us? Is it some kind of Devine power? Is it like the belief system of Hinduism where they have so many Gods to whom they worship asking for favours, and offering things with transferring merits? Is it the same Brahma and Deva realms Hinduism refer to as well?”
This “having infleunce” should NOT be looked at as “having power over a human”.
It is more like “being able to persuade”. If you read the thread from the beginning, this is what I have emphasized.For example, when a given person has a weakness for drinking, it is easy to entice him to “have a drink”. When a person has “rough character qualities”, it is easy to get to him to participate in beating a another person, etc.
“Good” Devas and brahmas are attracted to people with moral character.
“Bad” beings of any kind are attracted to people with bad moral character, AND they can make them do more bad things.
– So, not only devas/brahama, but humans also can influence other humans. This is how kids join gangs or become drug addicts, for example. If the parents instill good character qualities in them and teach them morals, they will not be able to be influenced like that.Yeos wrote” “One will never be free from death”…Neither from life ?”
To be free from death in this world is to be free from birth, because any birth in this world of 31 realms leads to death without exception.
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Thanks, Christian.
But it would be good if the Pali version with Akvan’s quote can be found.P.S. I think I just found it. I need some time to go through it:
7. SattakapuggalapaññattiI need to publish a post today and have some travel tomorrow to get ready for. So, it may take a couple of days.
– In the meantime, if anyone can come with a consistent explanation please do so.Hi Akvan,
You wrote: “In the Puggala Pannatti ekabījī, kolaṅkolo and sattak¬khat¬tu¬paramo has been explained. Here all three have been explained as “thinnang sanyojananang parikkaya sotapnno hoti…”
Do you have a link for that?
Yeos wrote: “” But isn’t Mara the deva whose “specialty” consists in arising great lust in people ?”
Mahendran wrote: “Is there a relationship between Mara and death? If he is a Deva what is his role and why was he born in that realm? I always misunderstood Mara as ” thought of death” in one’s mind.”
Yes. Both perceptions are out there. The first one more accurate than the second. The second is also accurate in a deeper sense as I discuss below.
As I mentioned above, Mara Devaputta is in the highest deva realm. He has anything that he desires, and he of course enjoys all those sense pleasures. He cannot understand why people want to attain Nibbana. His mindset is that if one attains Nibbana, one will have to give up all such pleasures.
– So, he tries to entice people to indulge in sense pleasures.
– Of course he does not understand that all such “pleasures” will come to an end, and once one is born in an apaya, it is very hard to get out.But the perception that Mara Devaputta is DIRECTLY associated with death and suffering is not correct, at least in the mundane sense. He is not trying cause direct physical harm to people, or trying to get people to commit murders, as some beings do.
However, in the lokottara sense, Mara can be associated with death, since if one follows him, one will never be able to be free from the cycle of birth and death (or the rebirth process), where one is subjected to much more suffering than any periods of pleasures like when born in such deva realms.
– So, “death” in the lokottara sense is associated with not being able to attain Nibbana.
– Since Mara is trying to prevent people from attaining Nibbana, he can be called an “agent of death”, as the Buddha himself stated. One will never be free from death, if one falls under Mara’s influence.It is possible that the references Siebe has given may have some of these descriptions.
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Yes. The description of y not is right.
Just as people with same gati (gathi) tend to associate with each other, many unseen beings tend to be attracted to people with similar gati; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)“.
So, devas and even brahmas may “help out” or at least give their blessings to those humans with high moral standards like theirs.
On the other hand, beings from lower realms (with bad intentions) tend to be attracted to humans with similar “bad gati”. They may influence those with “weak minds” to do immoral things. So, there could be truth to some stories where people claim that they heard voices asking them to kill certain people.
Of course, there are some devas in higher realms, like the Mara Devaputta, who may harass those humans who are making an effort to attain Nibbana.
– Mara would not encourage people to do bad, immoral things. He just wants people to to moral deeds and to become a deva like him.
– Mara does not understand that his life as a deva of a higher realm will end one day, and thus he may be born in an apaya in the future.In any case, it ALWAYS good to give merits to ALL BEINGS.
However, “worshipping devas or brahmas” is not in Buddha Dhamma.1 user thanked author for this post.
OK, y not. I must have somehow missed the bigger point.
It is a good thing that you mentioned that last verse. I did not pay attention to that either!:
‘Na tāvāyaṃ, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo paṭibhāsi bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ upāsakānaṃ upāsikānaṃ. Taṃ kissa hetu? Māyimaṃ dhammapariyāyaṃ sutvā pamādaṃ āhariṃsūti. Api ca mayā, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo pañhādhippāyena bhāsito”ti.’It should be actually translated as:
Sāriputta, I did not give this explanation of the teaching to the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen until now. Why is that? For I didn’t want those who have progressed to lower phala stages to slow down their efforts. However, I have explained it now, in order to answer your question.”So, this seems to be the first instance where the Buddha explained how long it would take to attain Arahanthood from the lower phala stages. Basically, one may think that as long as one is free from the apayas, there is no urgency to proceed further. In fact, as I have pointed out before, some bhikkhus needed to be admonished by the Buddha not to “slow down”.
I just came across a sutta that provides a more detailed description of Noble Persons. This is “Saupādisesa Sutta (AN 9.12)“.
- I will try to write a post on it a later, but the key points are discussed below.
Five kinds of Anāgāmis (of course including those Arahant Anugamis):
-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā antarāparinibbāyī hoti“.
-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā upahaccaparinibbāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā asaṅkhāraparinibbāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā uddhaṃsoto hoti akaniṭṭhagāmī“.They all have overcome the first five samyojana of sakkāya ditthi, vicikiccā, and silabbata parāmāsa, kāma rāga, patigha.
- The first one was discussed at the forum: “Antara Parinibbana“.
- The fifth category are those born in the Akanittha brahma realm, the highest realm reserved for the Anāgāmis; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
- Therefore, I suspect that the second, third, fourth types belong to those born in the other brahma realms reserved for the Anāgāmis.
Then there is the Noble Person with the Sakadāgāmī phala (including those Anāgāmi Anugamis):
- “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”
Translated: “With the ending of three fetters (saṃyojanā), and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, a Sakadāgāmī will come back to this world only once to deva realms”.
Lastly, there is the Sōtapanna and two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmi:
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattakkhattuparamo hoti, sattakkhattuparamaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.Translated:
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, an ekabījī will be reborn just one time in a human existence (bhava), then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a kolaṅkolo will be two or three bhava then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a sattakkhattuparamo has most seven bhava among devas and humans and then make an end of suffering”.Thus it is clear that an ekabījī is a Sōtapanna.
The last two must be the two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmis discussed in the post “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“:
“dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.I am not sure yet how kolaṅkolo and sattakkhattuparamo categories are to be identified with dhammānusārī and saddhānusārī categories.
However, the number of remaining bhava before attaining the Arahanthood is more precise in this classification of ekabījī, kolaṅkolo, and sattakkhattuparamo.
“If Nibbana was created due to the eightfold path or some practise it would be conditioned.”
It is essential to realize the following:
– Nibbana is NOT CREATED.
– Nibbana is ATTAINED when all defilements or CAUSES (greed, anger, ignorance) are REMOVED from one’s mind.
– The Eightfold Path is the WAY TO REMOVE defilements.When one removes ALL CAUSES then one ends up with the UNCAUSED (i.e., no causes remain) and UNCONDITIONED (Nibbana).
The CAUSES are greed, anger, ignorance.
P.S. We do accumulate punna kamma (and cultivate the three good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha) while we are on the Path. But at the end, at the Arahant stage, all those are also given up when wisdom (panna) reaches its peak.
– Therefore, the net result is that when panna is at peak, one sees the futility of even a trace of anything to do with the 31 realms. That is the “full Nibbana”.
