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NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
“Now, recently I notice that I’ve been shifting through three of these states within about 15-20 minutes. This is very new to me and I’m not sure if the quick shifting through the jhanas are even relevant. I recognize the qualities of each shift very easily as, previously, I would spend hours and days in some of these states”.One can go through jhana very quickly with practice.
It is said that Ven. Sariputta could go through all 8 jhana, attain Nirodha Samapatti, and “get back” within a brief moment.Yes. One could also stay in a given jhana for hours.
Regarding: “I seem to end on the third where there is intense awareness of the space in-between objects of the world. I don’t ‘see’ objects directly but the space around them seems to have much more relevance – the paradox being that there is nothing there”
The jhanic experiences in the first four jhana are clearly described by the Buddha in the “Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)“.
The relevant section from the English translation at that site is given below, which is fairly good (It seems to me that jhanic experiences may be the same for Ariya and anariya jhanas; these jhanas correspond to mental states of rupavacara brahma realms. Also note that while abandonment of the 10 types of miccha ditthi is needed for anariya jhanas, Ariya jhanas require a level of comprehension of Tilakkhana):
The First Jhāna
“Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states (my comment: these are greed, hate/anger, and 10 types of miccha ditthi), he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.“Great king, suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Second Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the subsiding of applied and sustained thought (my comment: i.e., vitakka/vicara are lost, but savitakka/savicara remain), the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is without applied and sustained thought, and is filled with the rapture and happiness born of concentration. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.“Great king, suppose there were a deep lake whose waters welled up from below. It would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south, nor would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; yet a current of cool water, welling up from within the lake, would drench, steep, saturate and suffuse the whole lake, so that there would be no part of that entire lake which is not suffused with the cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Third Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture (my comment: i.e., piti or joy is lost), the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’ He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness.“Great king, suppose in a lotus pond there were blue, white, or red lotuses that have been born in the water, grow in the water, and never rise up above the water, but flourish immersed in the water. From their tips to their roots they would be drenched, steeped, saturated, and suffused with cool water, so that there would be no part of those lotuses not suffused with cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with the happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Fourth Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain (my comment: there was no pain in the third jhana, just the sukha that was in the third jhana also abandoned), and with the previous passing away of joy and grief, the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which is neither pleasant nor painful and contains mindfulness fully purified by equanimity. He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind (my comment: one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized), so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind.“Great king, suppose a man were to be sitting covered from the head down by a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his entire body not suffused by the white cloth. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
y not wrote: “Is it not that once on the Path, one needs no external help until one reaches Arahanthood?”
Yes. But causes are not enough in Buddha Dhamma; suitable conditions must be there too.
– However, suitable conditions will appear in due time. That is called the “nature of things” or “dhammatā”.
– For example, a Sotapanna (or a Sakadagami anugami) may not make any progress in a particular human birth (due to unfavorable conditions), but will catch in future births in due time.“so progress will be made even outside of a Buddha sasana.”
No progress can be made outside the Buddha Sasana.
– It must be noted that the time limit for Buddha Sasana of 5000 years or so holds only in this “human world”. That limit is not there in deva and brahma worlds.
– Buddha Sasana in the human world ends when the last Sotapanna (and of course any other with magga phala) have all passed away. But they may be reborn in higher realms and can take a much longer time to get to the Arahanthood.
– For example, a Sotapanna deva may attain the next stage much later than 5000 years.
– There are brahmas in higher brahma realms who had attained the Anagami stage during the time of a previous Buddha who lives several maha kappas earlier.That is a good discussion. Thank you Dr. Chakma, Tobias, and upekkha100.
We should also be thankful to modern science for making this possible. Four people with very different backgrounds to come together and have a discussion on Buddha Dhamma!
– Thanks also to Seng Kiat for updating and keeping track of the corrections I make to the posts. It is to be noted for those who read the eBook that I revise a couple of old posts on average each week. Please make sure you have the updated version of a given post. Revision dates are there on those posts that have been revised.Yes. Abhidhamma describes basically all processes. It is amazing how much details one can get. But we need to keep in mind that our main goal is to understand enough Dhamma to overcome suffering.
The following is a viewpoint from another angle.
Those who object to the concept of the mind being at the forefront, object that mind does not generate enough power to do bodily work (kamma).
The mind (power of the javana citta) only gets the process started. Those mind-made decisions are carried out by the brain (which is inert, just like a computer), and the energy for brain function and to move body parts come from the energy generated by the food we eat.
For example, when we wash dishes, those actions are initiated by the mind. The brain (acting like an advanced computer) gets the arms and hands and other body parts to move. It is the same with a laborer who works in a field. After few hours, he would get tried and hungry, and would need more food to continue.
It is amazing to see, how a gandhabba (mental body) that is smaller than a single cell in the body controls everything.
I have discussed this in several posts (not possible to do in a single post), and a couple are below:
Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- IntroductionCitta and Cetasika – How Vinnana (Consciousness) Arises
When we really understand the importance of the mental body (gandhabba) our attachment to the physical body will fade. This physical body lasts only about 100 years, but the human gadnhabba may last thousands of years (of course will keep changing during that time).
– Once the gandhabba comes out, the physical body is pretty much like a log of wood.
– In case of a temporary exit (OBE), that physical body is kept alive by kammic energy, but cannot do any movements (because the brain needs instructions to move body parts).One final simple example. We can warm hands if we want to by rubbing the two hands together. Where is that heat energy coming from? It is from the food we eat. However, without the mind deciding that the hands needs to warmed, that will not happen.
P.S. All sankhara have consequences (outcomes or vipaka).
Punnabhisankhara lead to good results (sense pleasures) and good births.
Apunnabhisankhara lead to bad results (bad sense experiences) and bad births in the apayas.
“Neutral” sankhara get things done (like washing dishes or going to bathroom).Eventually, we need to stop all sankhara from arising (stopping rebirths) by cultivating panna (i.e., comprehending Tilakkhana).
– First task is to stop doing apunnabhisankhara and learn the basics of Buddha Dhamma.
– One also needs to cultivate punnabhisankhara AND learn deeper Dhamma (Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, etc) too.Hi Akvan,
When one becomes a Sotapnna, one does not automatically become a Sakadagami Anugami.
– One needs to keep striving. In most cases that is likely to happen.But there are instances when one attains a magga phala at the dying moment, say the Sotapanna phala.
– But in the next birth that person may be born to a family where Buddha Dhamma may not even be heard about. In that case, one would just be a Sotapanna for the duration of that life.
– Of course, that person will attain the Arahanthood within 7 bhava.Good question.
In a manodvara citta vithi, the vottapana citta is the same as the manodvara citta labelled MD, just before the set of javana citta:
OK. I see the misunderstanding.
I have revised #4, #5, and #9 of the post to make it more clear.
“A saddhānusārī (or dhammānusārī) is incapable of dying (separating) from that Noble birth until he realizes the Sotāpanna stage”. This does not mean a saddhānusārī will attain the Sotāpanna stage within that lifetime. Once “born as a Noble Person” one will not die from that birth, i.e., one WILL get to the Arahant stage without ever getting a birth in the apāyās.
– One gets a “Noble birth” when attaining the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage. One is now one of the “attha purisa puggalā“.So, basically, a Sōtapanna Anugāmi may be born many times a human until getting to the Sōtapanna stage (may even have many human bhava, each with many human jāti).
– Once getting to the Sōtapanna stage, there would be only seven maximum number of “bhava” left, within which one WILL attain the Arahant stage.I just translated the sutta in #4. It was clear to me, but I realize that it may not be clear to someone just reading the post.
– The post was already a bit long. This is why it is hard to provide a good translation of a sutta without getting into details.
– A given sutta (especially deep ones) need to be discussed in detail.Yes, Siebe. All you say are correct. That sutta is a good reference too.
If sense experiences are not pleasurable, humans will not be tempted by them. When they do immoral things to get those sense pleasures, they commit kamma that lead to rebirth in the apayas.
It is hard for a normal human to avoid such kamma WHEN sense pleasures are HIGHLY attractive, i.e., when temptations become STRONG.
– This is why a permanent change in mindset of at least a Sotapanna Anugami is needed. Such a mindset will automatically reject such bad actions at the vottapana citta (in the Abhidhamma language). So, one will not have to consciously avoid such “apayagami actions”.
– The tendency to have temptations for certain sense attractions are embedded in one’s gati. Those gati need to be reduced by doing real Anapana/Satipatthana. Then it will become easier to grasp the Tilakkhana and get to the Sotapanna stage.“When it turns out to be that recommended practices or contemplations lead to unhappiness, what to do? Does one have to continue?”
Those bhikkhus (and the translator too) misunderstood the instructions given by the Buddha.
– In any case, if a given procedure does not help, there in no point in pursuign that particular approach. There are many different techniques to choose from.“Therefor, i belief, searching happiness in life cannot really be in conflict with buddha-dhamma. Happiness and joy are necessities to practise the buddha-dhamma and make any progress. Ofcourse i understand it is a kind of happiness the sutta’s talk about (piti and sukha). We are not talking about sense-pleasures. But an unhappy mind is a serieus obstacle, at least, this is my own experience.”
That is true.
But the whole point in pursuing Buddha Dhamma is to realize the bad consequences of GETTING ATTACHED TO sense pleasures.
– But that does mean one needs to avoid sense pleasures, and live like those ascetics who endured suffering in hopes of getting rid of sense pleasures.
– That “giving up” HAS TO come through understanding: That in the end such sense pleasures only lead to suffering. That is the hard part.This is why I keep saying that one must follow the Path step-by-step:
“Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“New post on this issue published:
“Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“.Discussion can be continued at:
“Post on “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“.Yes. See, “Āhāra (Food) in Udayavaya Ñāna“.
“What is the use of the utuja kaya?”
I am not sure whether the utuja kaya has a “use”. It just arises due to the cittja kaya. As I said, citta arise and fade away quickly. Part of the energy in those cittas are released as an “electromagnetic wave” to use terminology of modern science.
These days, there are machines that can monitor this “aura”. It is an energy field.
– When one dies, this field is turned off and the “dead body” becomes inert like a piece of wood. So, this “aura body” is a sign of life.Thanks, upekkha100!
Yes. It is relevant.The key seems to be at least getting a basic idea of what is meant by anicca, dukkha, anatta nature AND how a given existence (bhava) arises due to one’s own (abhi)sankhara (as described in Paticca Samuppada).
– Once that basic idea is grasped, one may not be able to do “apayagami actions” (even under highly-tempting situations) even if one has not yet gotten to the Sotapanna phala moment.Good questions.
“1) The 6 ajjhatta äyatana are not the 6 physical eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mano indriya right? Ajjhatta äyatana are the 6 mental pasada rupa that is in the gandabba? Specifically cakku pasada rupa, sota pasada rupa, ghana pasada rupa, jivha pasada rupa, kaya pasada rupa, hadaya vatthu?”
Correct.
“2) Are all those 6 ajjhatta äyatana made up of mano rupa? Even the hadaya vatthu?”
No. Those are actually (barely) above the “mano rupa” or “vinnana” stage. They are at suddhashtaka stage (the smallest “rupa rupa” or “vanna rupa”).
– They are created by kammic energy at the cuti-patisandhi stage, when a new bhava is grasped.
– Those are really the “essence” of a living being.
– In the case of a brahma, that is basically all there is. Of course, there is arising of thoughts (cittaja kaya), and the utuja kaya (“aura body”) that is due to the cittaja kaya.
– That is also the essence of a human or animal gandhabba. However, a gandhabba can “absorb” aroma and acquire a trace of matter, the finest state of a karaja kaya. Our karaja kaya (physical body) is the VERY DENSE form of that karaja kaya.“3) The 6 bahiddha äyatana are also not the 6 physical sense faculties either right? Bahiddha äyatana are the rupa rupa from the material world that enter the 5 physical sense doors(eye, ear,nose, tongue, body) and the mano rupa from the mental world that enter the mano indriya?”
Correct. Very good observation.
“4) The 6 external physical sense doors(eyes, ear,nose, tongue, body, mano indriya) are not what does the actual sensing right? They are merely the doors, the gateway for either rupa rupa/mano rupa to enter these doors and eventually transfer to the 6 internal mental sense faculties? Because it’s these 6 internal mental sense faculties(pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu) which does the actual feeling/sensing of the material and mental world?”
Yes. Our physical eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and the mana indriya just help in getting the “signals” coming from bahiddha äyatana to the ajjhatta äyatana.
“5) Why are they called ayatana instead of indriya? Because isn’t everything we sense initially neutral thus are indriya rather than ayatana?”
Those indriya become ayatana due to avijja and tanha: We not only “see”, “hear”, etc, but also attach our likings/cravings to those signals.
– That is why only an Arahant uses them as indriya.
“Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference”You are almost there in grasping the essence!
