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I’d like to understand how Sotapanna can not lose his/her understanding in the future lives. In other words, the process of first asavakkhaya(in this case, diṭṭhāsava). How first three samyojana can be gone and never return? Of course, it can be done by learning and contemplating dhamma. What I really want to know is the mechanism of it.
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I’ve been writing on this forum for an hour, but somehow the writing seems to have gone away. So I rewrite it shortly. -
Good question!
I will try to answer in the point format. Some people may want to read the post, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream” to get the background material.
1. Current “mental qualities” (in particular, gati and anusaya) are associated with the hadaya vatthu of the manomaya kaya.
2. Of course, gati and anusaya can and will change, even moment-to-moment. However, they change gradually. Even when the physical body dies, the manomaya kaya can enter another womb and start a new physical body, but with the “same” (but gradually changing) hadaya vatthu.
3. But when the “human bhava” ends, that manomaya kaya (hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa) will die.
4. But kammic energy will create a new manomaya kaya (with a new hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa) at that time. That is the cuti-patisandhi moment of “grasping a new bhava.”
5. That new hadaya vatthu WILL have the same anusaya (hidden defilements) but gati CAN BE very different from the those for the previous bhava.
– For example, if the transition is from a human bhava to an animal bhava, the new manomaya kaya will have “animal gati.” Note that even within a “dog bhava,” different dogs will have different “dog gati.” But as a set, all dogs have some common “dog gati” that are vastly inferior to “human gati.”6. Therefore, while gati may change drastically, anusaya will remain the same after the cuti-patisandhi moment.
– We can say that dasa samyojana represent the anusaya of a lifestream. P.S. See “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process.”
– Unless at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage is attained, ALL living beings will have the ten samyojana. A Sotapanna Anugami will attain the Sotapanna stage before the cuti-patisandhi moment.7. Thus, by the time a Sotapanna gets to the cuti-patisandhi moment (to grasp a new bhava), three samyojana would have been removed from the anusaya.
– Thus, the new hadaya vatthu will have only SEVEN samyojana, i.e., less anusaya.8. That means that lifestream CAN NOT grasp a bhava in an apaya. Those lost three samyojana are permanently lost.
– In other words, a Sotapanna can NEVER again have “dog gati” or the “gati of a hell-being,” for example.
– If that Sotapanna grasps a Deva bhava, they will have Deva gati. If a Brahma bhava grasped, then Brahma gati, etc.Some familiarity with the posts on gandhabba may be needed: “Mental Body – Gandhabba” and “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya).”
Regarding the second part:
It s a good idea to write the comment/question using a word processor and then copy and paste, especially if it is a long comment.
– Also, note that a given comment SHOULD NOT be revised after an hour. It will not be revised. Some people had the original post deleted when they tried to revise it after an hour. -
OK. From what I understand is hadaya vatthu is the bearer of anusaya. Asavakkhaya happens in here. This certainly helped me understand Gandhabba. Thank you for the good answer lal.
About the “A Sotapanna Anugami will attain the Sotapanna stage before the cuti-patisandhi moment.”
It sounds like a Sotapanna Anugami must attain the Sotapanna stage in given bhava. Is it right? But from what I understand is Sotapanna Anugami has no limit of bhava. After becoming Sotapanna, one is left 7 bhava or less. So I’d like to know about this point.
By the way, the post Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process in #10
10. So, it is essential to understand that getting rid of the first three samyōjana involves NOTHING ELSE but comprehending a bit about the true nature of this world, the anicca nature.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting the sentence, in this case there is no problem with it, but the removal of first three samyōjana means the removal of diṭṭhāsava. i.e. It means there is no vipallasa about the anicca. So the statement “a bit about” might be able to have a possibility to mislead to comprehension level of anicca to require becoming sotapanna.
I’m afraid whether I’m pointing out the too minor problem of sentence expression.
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dosakkhayo asked: “It sounds like a Sotapanna Anugami must attain the Sotapanna stage in given bhava. Is it right? But from what I understand is Sotapanna Anugami has no limit of bhava. After becoming Sotapanna, one is left 7 bhava or less. So I’d like to know about this point.”
Those are two different issues. One is a Sotapanna Anugami becoming a Sotapanna. The other is a Sotapanna attaining Arahanthood within seven bhava.
On the second question: Good point. I have revised that as: “10. So, it is essential to understand that getting rid of the first three samyōjana involves nothing else but comprehending the anicca nature.”
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One must fulfill the four conditions to become sōtapanna @dosakkhayo.
Just so that you know, Four conditions to become sōtapanna is different from four qualities of someone who is at least sōtapanna.
One of the condition to become sōtapanna is that One must LISTEN to dhamma sermon or desana by someone who is at least Sōtapanna.
Only when problem, it’s causes, it’s end and path to its end are seen and understood to some level, can one start working on the problem. To understand the problem reading is beneficial and can lead to sōtapanna anugami stage, you must listen to dhamma sermon either in live mode or recorded one to get exact problem definition, so to speak.
This sections contains complete analysis on the sōtapanna stage (↓)
“Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna”This page (↓) contains complete summary of what happens at different level with attainment of various stages of nibbanā
(What āsavā, anusuya, citta, Cetasika, samyojana are removed or reduced at various stages.)
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Thank you, LayDhammaFollower!
P.S. It is a good practice to use the following guidelines to insert a link to a comment:
3. In particular, it is good to use the “link” button to provide a link to another post or even external links. In order to describe the procedure, let us assume that you want to provide a link to the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post at the website.
– Open that post in a separate window.
– Copy the title of the post (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and paste in the text you are writing.
Select that text with the title (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and click the “link” button. It will open a new window to put in the web address.
– Go to that other open window with the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post and copy the web address from that web page (which in this case is https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/abhidhamma-introduction/”).
– Come back and paste that to provide the link at the URL input.
– You can also check the little box “Open link in a new tab”, so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.
– Follow the same procedure to provide an external link.
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Those instructions are from: “How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question”Of course, just do it as you did if it is not easy to follow the instructions. It is just that the comment will look better, , and also, the link will open in a new tab. That allows the reader to go back and forth between the comment and the link if needed.
I just “fixed” your links per those instructions.
****@ dosakkhayo: Also, see #5 of “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“
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OK. I read all post of Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna subsection. And I found an answer of my question.
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Now I think it’s time to ask the question I wrote in the title as I started this thread.What is the knowing which Sotapanna cannot lose even beyond death?
In the forum“saññākkhandha comprises avijja, or saññā of nicca, sukha, atta”
To infer from this, we can say that sotapanna’s saññākkhandha got permanently changed.
We already know, cultivating sanna of any given concept is different with just memorizing the word or description of it.
What I’m curious about in here is following.
I learned that ariya’s achievement is can not regress.
If one died attained sotapanna stage, one will be born in human realm(or higher realm but in here not think about other case).
The punna iddhi is not common phenomenon. It is not ensured that all Sotapanna has punna iddhi.
Without punna iddhi or cultivate jhana and iddhi one cannot access the previous memory.
Nevertheless, whether one have iddhi, the understanding of sotapanna is never lost.
How far is the understanding that is never lost in the future?
First, of course, the tilakkhana, four noble truths, paticca samuppada belong to the inseparable group.
The aveccappasada to Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha also belong to there.
However, the knowledge of Pali words is not there. This is excluded in that there are individual differences. What I’d like to find is universal knowledge which every sotapanna has.
(1) Does knowing about 31 realm belong to the inseparable group?
(2) Does knowing about gandhabba belong to the inseparable group?
(3) Does knowing about abhidhamma belong to the inseparable group?
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After reading the above post of dosakkhayo, it seems to me that he has two unresolved issues:
1. The difference between amoha and paññā, which I briefly explained in the thread, “hetu the six roots.”
– That topic was discussed previously too: “post on Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”2. How the “comprehension of the Four Noble Truths” (i.e., the level of paññā attained) at a magga phala “carries over to subsequent rebirths.” In other words, how can one not lose that attainment when dying in this life and being reborn?
– From dosakkhayo’s following comment above, it seems that he thinks that “newfound understanding” must become a memory to be carried over to the next life:
“Without punna iddhi or cultivate jhana and iddhi, one cannot access the previous memory.”
– It is not a matter of being able to recall what one has learned. That knowledge/understanding stays with the seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu) and is transferred to the next hadaya vatthu when grasping a new bhava. When Samsaric bonds (samyojana) are broken, they never “come back.” There is no need to “consciously think” about it.@dosakkhayo: Before I go any further, were those the unresolved issues? Do the above explanations help? Do they need further clarification?
– What do you mean by ” inseparable group” in the last three questions? I am not sure what that means. May be you can give the Pali word for it. -
I read the topic post on Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda
Let me write what I understand. I ask you to be excused my out of grammar talking. It’s very difficult for me to construct a sentence while conveying my thought.
One who doesn’t understand Tilakkhana, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Four Noble Truth(I’ll abbreviate these three things as TPF from now on) can not go to stop rebirth process. One just keeps going rebirth endlessly.
In my view, it looks like a revolution of stars. They keep moving but never reach anywhere, just moving and moving on. So, Living without knowing TPF is anatta. There is no final destination. Only repetation of endless painful road. One goes round and round in circles and does not make any progress.
So, I can call one’s attempt with amoha revolves(turn) around avijja in that one can not reach any lokottara achievement.
(Of course, even if it is insufficient to attain nibbana, still have some meaning for setting a enought condition to learning dhamma, but in the this post I’ll leave aside this point to state my view)
But the case of paññā is not same as amoha. Paññā leads us to nibbana. So it is not the motion of revolution. It leads to go off the track of satta. Starting removing avijja is like that. In the Eightfold Path, ra + agga inclination which is continuing revolution is keeping decreasing.
Therefore the terms when we use to describe “amoha knowledge” do not match an achievement by paññā.
So, “It is not a matter of being able to recall what one has learned. That knowledge/understanding stays with the seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu) and is transferred to the next hadaya vatthu when grasping a new bhava.” None of amoha knowledge can make this change. Only paññā can do it.
But also I think I could see the common denominator between paññā and amoha. Those share the same method. Analytical, logical reasoning. I guess. So “It is the paññā cetasika that “represents” amoha.”
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Lal said,
“What do you mean by ” inseparable group” in the last three questions? I am not sure what that means. May be you can give the Pali word for it.”When I wrote that, I had thought that there is something generated or removed by panna in sotapanna’s mind. So I want to know the range of that change. For example, does the detailed knowledge of 31 realms belong to that change? Like that. So what I was trying to refer to by using the word “inseparable group” is the range of the change which happened in sotapanna.
But, I think this question is meaningless now.
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“Before I go any further, were those the unresolved issues? Do the above explanations help? Do they need further clarification?”I think all problems about this topic is solved.
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OK. Glad to hear that.
You wrote: “It’s very difficult for me to construct a sentence while conveying my thought.”
I think you should write the comment using a word processor. That way, you can take time and ensure your ideas are conveyed correctly.
– Once satisfied with your writing, copy and paste it on the forum.
– Putting ideas into words is not easy. That is my main concern when I write.
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