[upekkha100]

I’d like to ask a series of questions on the three phrases of Tilakkhana.

1) Sabbe sankhara annica
2) Sabbe sankhara dukkha
3) Sabbe dhamma anatta

I want to address the second phrase “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” first.

1) Am I correct in the analysis of how punnabisankhara and apunnabhisankhara lead to dukkha? Apunnabhisankhara leads to bad kamma which leads to bad kamma vipaka which causes dukkha/suffering. Punnabhisankhara leads to good kamma which leads to good kamma vipaka, but this good kamma vipaka will not last forever and has to end which will cause dukkha/suffering.

2) I think I may have understood how apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara leads to suffering. But I can’t understand how neutral sankhara leads to dukkha. Neutral sankhara like drinking water or walking leads to neutral kamma with no future consequences, nothing good nor bad.

3) Same as above, I can’t understand how doing kusala kamma or doing Anapana could lead to suffering. On the contrary both kusala kamma and Anapana lead to the ending of suffering(because if one keeps doing kusala kamma or doing Anapana, these will purify the mind and help grasp Tilakkhana and become an Ariya then eventually an Arahant who has ended all mental suffering in this life and end ALL suffering after they die.)

[Lal]

Good comments/questions, Upekkha.

You wrote: “1) Am I correct in the analysis of how punnabisankhara and apunnabhisankhara lead to dukkha? Apunnabhisankhara leads to bad kamma which leads to bad kamma vipaka which causes dukkha/suffering. Punnabhisankhara leads to good kamma which leads to good kamma vipaka, but this good kamma vipaka will not last forever and has to end which will cause dukkha/suffering.”
– That is right.

You wrote: “2) I think I may have understood how apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara leads to suffering. But I can’t understand how neutral sankhara leads to dukkha. Neutral sankhara like drinking water or walking leads to neutral kamma with no future consequences, nothing good nor bad.”
– You are again correct that it is not easy to see how dukkha can arise from “neutral actions” that you mentioned. The key is to realize that one needs to first remove sufferings that are clearly seen at one’s stage on the Path.
– We need to look at this way. Anyone can clearly see the suffering that most animals go through. If one has faith in the Buddha, one will also believe that even worse suffering exists in other three apayas. Such rebirths occur due to apunnabhisankhara. They must be first stopped.
– As we can also see, there is suffering even in the human realm. A birth in the human realm is due to punnabhisankhara. As you mentioned, births in any realm end with death and suffering. So, suffering exists in ALL realms even if higher realms have relatively more “pleasures.” Thus the next step is to see the anicca nature and to see the fruitlessness of even punnabhisankhara.
– Anyone below the Anagami stage should really not worry about those “neutral sankhara.” There is the suffering associated with eating, drinking, and even breathing! All those take an effort, even though we do not think about it.
– One has to make a living to eat and drink. So, that is somewhat easier to see. But even breathing takes an effort. This can be seen when one gets to the fourth jhana samapatti and the breathing stops. That relief is seen at that time. This is why it is said that an Arahant looks forward to Parinibbana (death of the physical body.)

You wrote: “3) Same as above, I can’t understand how doing kusala kamma or doing Anapana could lead to suffering.”

– The key to realizing here is that punnabhisankhara are not the same as kusala kamma. Punnabhisankhara are punna kamma and lead to rebirths in “good realms.” Rebirth process is stopped with kusala kamma. So, real kusala kamma and correct Anapanasati (with the comprehension of anicca nature) lead to the stopping of the rebirth process (via four stages of magga phala).
– Of course, one MUST do kusala kamma and/or punna kamma (both come under “good deeds”). The first goal is to stay away from the apayas. In fact, before the Sotapanna (at least the Sotapanna Anugami) stage, most kusala kamma one does are only punna kamma.
– That is a bit of a deep point. When one does a punna kamma one may have at least a subtle expectation of a “good return” for that action. Punna kamma are the “good actions” done before grasping Tilakkhana. The same actions automatically become kusala kamma when one can “see” the unfruitfulness of rebirths in any realm (i.e., anicca nature).
– Some punna kamma AUTOMATICALLY becomes a kusala kamma when one gets to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Then as one makes progress, more and more types of punna kamma will become kusala kamma.

See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma“

[upekkha100]

Thanks for the answers Lal.

How about the sankhara that is involved while doing Anapana. If ALL sankhara(SABBE sankhara) leads to dukkha, how can Anapana sankhara lead to dukkha when it helps end the rebirth process thus helps end suffering?

Even though it says ALL sankhara lead to dukkha, Anapana sankhara seems to be an exception.

[Lal]

I am glad that you have thought through this.

The verse that you quoted DOES NOT say that “sabbe sankhara LEAD TO dukkha.”
It just says, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” OR “All sankhara are suffering.”

So, “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara” are the types of sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. But one still has to strive to attain Nibbana. There is an EFFORT involved.

1. Those Paticca Samuppada (PS) cycles that lead to suffering ALWAYS start with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– Those sankhara that lead to suffering are defined in the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda ­Vibhaṅga: “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro“.
Translated: “What is avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, cittasaṅkhāra“.
– See #14 in the post: “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)”

2. Those PS cycles that lead to the end of suffering start with “akusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– These types of sankhara DO NOT belong to the above kinds.
– See, “Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada”

As I explained in my previous comment above, the difference between punnabhisankhara that LEAD TO rebirth (in good realms) and those that LEAD TO Nibbana is one’s comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta (or the Four Noble Truths or Paticca Samuppada.)
– Punnabhisankhara become “kusala-mula sankhara” with the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta.

All posts on Paticca Samuppada at: “Paticca Samuppāda“

[upekkha100]

Lal wrote:
“The verse that you quoted DOES NOT say that “sabbe sankhara LEAD TO dukkha.”
It just says, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” OR “All sankhara are suffering.”

For a long time I thought the two phrases “sabbe sankhara annica” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha” meant “everything sankhara can LEAD to is anicca and causes suffering.” Not that “all sankhara ARE anicca” or “all sankhara ARE suffering.”

That makes a big difference(the sankhara itself vs what the sankhara can lead to). And changes a lot of things.

For one, if it is all sankhara are suffering then my first analysis would appear to be wrong. Because I deduced apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara to be suffering in terms of what each can LEAD to rather than apunnabisankhara/punnabhisankhara as BEING suffering.

In this site sankhara has been defined as THOUGHTS, even kaya sankhara. For example vaci sankhara is not the speech itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to speech. Kaya sankhara is not the bodily action itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to the bodily action.

So in “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha”, the “sankhara” does not include speech itself or bodily action itself? It just means thoughts? As in “all THOUGHTS are anicca” or “all THOUGHTS are suffering?”

[Lal]

Upekkha wrote:In this site sankhara has been defined as THOUGHTS, even kaya sankhara. For example vaci sankhara is not the speech itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to speech. Kaya sankhara is not the bodily action itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to the bodily action.

So in “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha”, the “sankhara” does not include speech itself or bodily action itself? It just means thoughts? As in “all THOUGHTS are anicca” or “all THOUGHTS are suffering?”

It is not only at this site that sankhara are thoughts. Sankhara are thoughts, period.
– Many people just do not KNOW what sankhara are!
– Just saying “mental formations” does not give the idea, even though it is not incorrect. It just does not have an impact.
– We need to realize that what we think, speak, and do, ALL depend on our MINDS.

If someone says “sankhara are not thoughts” ask him/her to explain what sankhara are.

Yes. All sankhara are thoughts. It does not mean we have to think for a long time to do something. It just means any speech or action requires a thought that arises in the mind.

Some thoughts arise spontaneously due to our gati!
– But one can ALWAYS stop any speech or action even if it starts due to gati. Just try it!
– That is the basis of Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
– When we practice Anapanasati/Satipatthana, our gati will change. That is the idea!

[upekkha100]

I want to emphasize  that the verse “sabbe sankhara dukkha” made more sense to me when I saw it as “all sankhara LEAD to suffering” rather than “all sankhara ARE suffering.” When you said it is “all sankhara ARE suffering” I went back to square one and became very confused and more questions arose. Perhaps others can help me understand as well.

Bad kamma vipaka is a major reason for our suffering in this world. But if the verse means “all sankhara ARE suffering”, then that means bad kamma vipaka is not implied in that verse. Because bad kamma vipaka is not sankhara but something sankhara can LEAD to.

[Lal]

1. Not all sankhara lead to dukkha.
– The Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada” that leads to Nibbana starts with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara“.
– So, there are sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. In fact, those above lead to stop suffering.
– Specifically, those “good sankhara” are “punnabhisankhara done with comprehension of Tilakkhana.”

2. Of course, suffering arises due to many types of sankhara. Those are apunnabhisankhara, anenjabhi sankhara, and punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana).
– Apunnabhisankhara lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– Anenjabhi sankhara (arupavacara jhana) lead to rebirths in arupavacara Brahma realms.
– Punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana) lead to rebirths in “other good realms” (human, deva realms, and rupavacara brahma realms.) Good, moral deeds lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms. Rupavacara jhana lead to rebirths in the rupavacara brahma realms.
– The last two (Anenjabhi sankhara and Punnabhisankhara) also DO NOT lead to the end of suffering.

[y not]

So how do the various types of sankhara apply to an Ariya (therefore destined for Nibbana) who has not attained the Arahanthood in this life? :
– “those “good sankhara” ( “punnabhisankhara done with comprehension of Tilakkhana).”
– Anenjabhi sankhara,
– punnabhisankhara.

For a Sotapanna or a Sakadagami or an Anagami, in certain moments, does “punnabhisankhara with comprehension of Tilakkhana” and, in other moments, does sankhara of the other two types. That is,sometimes it is Nibbana that is uppermost in the mind; at other times, it is the ‘next stop’ that is; here with Nibbana as the final destination, not the immediate one.

It may be that I have not put the question right. If not I will re-phrase.

[Lal]

y not, answers to your questions (as I understand) could be in the following explanation.

1. Once one becomes an Ariya by comprehending Tilakkhana to SOME EXTENT, one would not do any apunnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– That is the base level of comprehending anicca nature, which convinces that mind of the dangers of such apayagami sankhara.

2. Then the next level is a bit deeper. That convinces one of the dangers in the attachment to sensual pleasures.
– Attachment to sensual pleasures is lost in two stages of Sakadagami and Anagami.
– Then one would do punnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms ONLY with a higher level of comprehension of Tilakkhana.

3. The final stage is Arahanthood.
– At that point, one would have seen the futility of rupavacara and arupavacara jhana (i.e., the futility of such “jhanic pleasures” or the temporary existences that result from them.)
– Thus, an Arahant would do any punnabhisankhara or anenjabhisankhara only with FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana.

4. Finally, either akusala-mula OR kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) would not be applicable to any actions by an Arahant.
– There is no avijja left to initiate akusala-mula PS starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– There are no akusala to be removed via the kusala-mula PS starting with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– Whatever sankhara by an Arahant involve only kammically neutral deeds (walking, eating, etc) and also punnabhisankhara/anenjabhisankhara (good deeds and cultivation of Ariya jhana) with the FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana. Those latter are called punna kriya, not punna kamma.

If it is still not clear, you may want to go back and read my previous comments.
– They explain the same in different ways.

Of course, you can re-phrase any un-answered questions.
– This is a good conversation to have in order to clarify these critical points.

[upekkha100]

Sabbe sankhara dukkha=all sankhara ARE suffering.

So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?

[Lal]

Upekkha: “So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”

This does not make sense. Vipaka are not sankhara.

[y not]

Thank you, Lal,

It is # 2 that my question falls under. All is clear about the other three.

There is ‘a higher level of comprehension of Tilakkhana’. So ‘Attachment to sensual pleasures is lost in two stages of Sakadagami and Anagami.’ But the fact is that, for a Sakadagami that attachement is not actually ‘lost’. It is only ‘on the way’ of being lost – and I know that is what you mean as well. ‘On the way’ he/she is destined for a deva existence IN THE SHORT RUN immediately following death because that is where the ‘level’ of comprehension of Tilakkhana leads. Based on that understanding comes the question:

Let us take the case of the lower one of the two: a Sakadagami does ‘punnabhisankhara that could (??) lead to rebirth in the deva realms ONLY with a higher level of comprehension of Tilakkhana.’
(Why not ‘inevitably’ rather than ‘could’ ? This is just something I asked myself ‘en passant’, on reading ‘could lead’, it is not related to my main point. No answer in necessary.) So the question based on the first para above is:

A sankhara is, or sankhara are done:
– 1. with punnahisankhara, leading to a deva existence.
– 2. with Nibbana as the Goal, foregoing AT THAT TIME, all relishing of a deva world.
– 3. with both at once: mindful of that deva existence, with THAT prominent as the immediate destination ,BUT, at the same time, mindful that that too will come to an end because Nibbana must follow. That is, the anicca nature is seen. But what about the sanna here? ..for it ‘takes both in’ at once.

I may have other (related) questions; those, for instance, that have to do with how all that will pan out at the moment of physical death – but that will do for now.

[y not]

On going over what I wrote again and again, I realized some alterations were necessary. Please read again. Pardon me for it.

[Lal]

y not: I just revised the “could” to “can” in #2 that you referred to.

I did not mean any uncertainty there.
– That was an unintentional error on my part.

By the way, when you ask a question, try to focus on the issue. If you just quoted what I wrote and asked for clarification, that is all you had to do. When you write a whole paragraph, the point can get lost.
– Make it a habit to quote from what I write (just the relevant part.) Then it is easier for me to see what the issue is.

[y not]

Alright, point taken. My question, however, stands as put, starting:

“….A sankhara is, or sankhara are done:
– 1. with punnahisankhara,….” and onto the main point: “BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SANNA HERE? ..FOR IT ‘TAKES BOTH IN’ AT ONCE.”

Thank you

[Lal]

y not: Now I am totally lost. What SANNA are you talking about?

Is this regarding my post of January 7, 2020 at 4:50 pm?

Please quote the whole paragraph that I wrote (that is not clear) and re-phrase the question as if it is a new question. Do not refer to any back and forth above. Let us start afresh. Take time and formulate the question.

[y not]

I have just clicked onto your profile to see your reply as it did not show on the Forum main page.

-“y not: Now I am totally lost. What SANNA are you talking about?

Is this regarding my post of January 7, 2020 at 4:50 pm?

Please quote the whole paragraph that I wrote (that is not clear) and re-phrase the question as if it is a new question. Do not refer to any back and forth above. Let us start afresh. Take time and formulate the question.”

No, no..we are on different wavelenghts. I had a question. Nothing to do with questioning or querying anything you wrote. I had already said that I require no answer to the could/can choice of word. (“This is just something I asked myself ‘en passant’, on reading ‘could lead’, it is not related to my main point. No answer in necessary.”)

“So let me try again. My question is:

“Let us take the case of a Sakadagami who does sankhara or regular series of sankhara:
– 1. which are punnahisankhara, leading to a deva existence.
– 2. with Nibbana as the Goal, foregoing AT THAT TIME, all relishing of a deva world.
– 3. with both at once: mindful of that deva existence, with THAT prominent as the immediate destination ,BUT, at the same time, mindful that that too will come to an end because Nibbana must follow. That is, the ANICCA NATURE IS SEEN. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SANNA HERE? ..for THAT SANNA ‘takes both in’ at once.

I hope it is clear now.

Thank you for persevering with me.

[Lal]

y not wrote: “-3. with both at once: ”

That is not possible.
– Comprehension of Tilakkha at the level of a Sakadagami will lose ANY and ALL cravings for a human existence.

[y not]

??? Are you sure there are no mistakes in the sentence Lal? For then, just like in the case of an Anagami,a Sakadagami will go to a brahma realm, and there will be no difference between the destination of a Sakadagami and an Anagami. ???? And we know that the destination of a Sakadagami
is a deva world.

Moreover, the distinction I am making is between a deva existence and Nibbana, not between a deva existence and a brahma existence

[Lal]

Yes. You are right, y not. I was thinking about Sakadagami removing all desires for human birth. I just revised my above reply to be consistent.

Anyway, I cannot understand what you are trying to ask about a Sakadagami. Just send me an email detailing fully what you are asking. Please do not post here until I understand your question.

[Lal]

I think it is good to try to clarify the following in a bit more detail.

Upekkha wrote: “Sabbe sankhara dukkha=all sankhara ARE suffering.
So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”

Yes. I clearly stated in previous replies that all sankhara are suffering.
This suffering comes in two ways.
– There is suffering (at least striving) while doing the deed. That is the sankhara stage.
– For apunnabhisankhara, the stronger suffering is in the future, as a kamma vipaka, per Paticca Samuppada.

So, those who are suffering in the apayas NOW, are suffering due to the PREVIOUS sankhara. The current suffering in the apayas is due to vipaka.

We can take three examples to clarify.

1. Suppose X kills another person by stabbing.
– That killing ORIGINATED due to kaya sankhara that arose in X’s mind. Those thoughts then were translated to the action of killing (kaya kamma) that REQUIRED an effort. Furthermore, those thoughts also were not good thoughts and made X’s mind very agitated, which is also a part of the suffering at the moment of doing the bad deed.
– However, much worse suffering comes in a future rebirth in an apaya DUE TO that bad kamma. That future rebirth results from the uppatti PS process.

2. Now let us take an example of X doing a good deed (say building a hospital) with punnabhisankhara, but without comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– That effort of building the hospital and related planning etc is the “suffering” at that moment. Some of that “suffering” will be counter-balanced by the “good state of mind.”
– But the kamma vipaka that come in the future could lead to a birth in a Deva realm.
– Yet, that return is “temporary.” After “getting paid” for the good deed, X will be back to where he was on the rebirth process.

3. On the other hand, if X was a Sotapanna (and built that hospital with some comprehension of Tilakkhana), that will help X to advance to the next stage of Nibbana. Then there is progress towards ending future suffering.

In ALL three cases, there was suffering (striving) at the time of doing the deeds (i.e., at the time of GENERATING sankhara.)
– That is what is meant by “sabbe sankhara dukkha”
– After Parinibbana, no more “sankhara” and no more suffering.
– By the way, that is the other part, “sabbe sankhara anicca.” All “good and bad sankhara” come to an end with Parinibbana.

[upekkha100]

Since sankhara are thoughts and not the speech/bodily action itself, I was having difficulty understanding how only thoughts(merely thinking things) could be suffering. From your responses it is the EFFORT/STRIVING to think those thoughts that is the suffering.

Lal wrote:
“Furthermore, those thoughts also were not good thoughts and made X’s mind very agitated, which is also a part of the suffering at the moment of doing the bad deed.”

Yes, I could see how apunnabhisankhara(simply thinking an immoral thought) can be suffering. In apunnabhisankhara there is asobhana cetasika. And asobhana cetasika stresses/heats up the mind. Whereas sobhana cetasika cools down the mind.

But sobhana cetasika arise in punnabhisankhara.

1) If sobhana cetasika cools down the mind, then can punnabhisankhara be considered as stressful?

2) I’m assuming it is the EFFORT needed to THINK good/moral thoughts that is the suffering when it comes to punnabhisankhara as well?

[Lal]

Upekkha asked:” 1) If sobhana cetasika cools down the mind, then can punnabhisankhara be considered as stressful?”

No. Punnabhisankhara are not stressful. They help reduce stress, as I mentioned.
– The suffering associated with kaya sankhara involve “bodily work.”
– It is that “physical work” that makes even punna kamma stressful.

For example, when you help an elderly person to cross the street, that takes some effort. Of course, sobhana cetasika that arise in the mind makes that less stressful.

The key point is that “sabbe sankhara anicca”, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” etc can be clearly seen as one proceeds to higher levels on the Path.

First one needs to realize the dangers of APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA and the need to engage in PUNNA ABHI SANKHARA.
– Then, as one starts to comprehend Tilakkhana, SOME of those APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA will automatically become KUSALA KAMMA.
– At that stage, one would be able to start seeing the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of ALL SANKHARA.

[upekkha100]

Mano sankhara are reactions to sense inputs. They don’t last long, they are lightning quick. They are automatic. There is no effort or striving involved.

I could see how mano sankhara would be suffering if let’s say X were to see X’s enemy, and X’s reaction or mano sankhara to that sense input was one of anger. So that means there was dosa in X’s mano sankhara, and thus agitated X’s mind(which would be the suffering).

But what about let’s say an Arahant saw a handicap person, and the Arahant’s reaction/mano sankhara was of compassion, there was karuna in the mano sankhara. It was only a reaction, the Arahant did not even do anything for the handicap person.

I’m curious to know how something as brief as a good or neutral mano sankhara which does not involve sankappa, speech, bodily actions or any effort/striving can be suffering.

I’m assuming seeing the suffering in mano sankhara is something only an Arahant would be able to understand.

But it would still be good to know at least intellectually.

[Lal]

Upekkha wrote: ” It was only a reaction, the Arahant did not even do anything for the handicap person.”

Why wouldn’t the Arahant do anything? He/she would help out that person.

As I previously explained, that would only be a kriya without any kammic consequences.

Anyway, I do not think it would be beneficial to anyone at this forum to try to explain “sabbe sankhara dukkha” etc beyond what I have discussed.

[upekkha100]

Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas. But now it seems it just means the effort/striving needed for thinking a thought is suffering.

[sybe07]

“sabbe sankhara dukkha”

I think it means that the Buddha experienced that the ending of all sankhara is also the ending of a burdensome mind. In other words, any sankhara, even vedana and sanna, represent a certain kind of burden. In sannavedayitanirodha there is not even vedana and sanna. This state is not burdensome. It is the highest and most subtle and comfortable abiding (MN31).

There are also sutta’s that describe how jhana in progressive order becomes less burdensome because formations typical for a certain jhana, cease to exist.

Piti may be experiences as a kind of happiness but from the perspective of cessation piti is burden.

[Lal]

Upekkha wrote: “Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas. But now it seems it just means the effort/striving needed for thinking a thought is suffering.”

It seems that the “big picture” got lost while discussing finer aspects.

Here is the “Big Picture.”

1. There are two ways that sankhara are associated with suffering.
– ONE: Most sufferings arise LATER. One cultivates sankhara over a period of time and thus cultivate “patisandhi vinnana” for future rebirths.
– TWO: There is also suffering associated in real-time, as one is generating sankhara. Those can be both “mental stress” and associated physical work (effort involved in speaking and doing things). Even when an Arahant does sankhara (not abhisankhara) to engage in daily activities, they are suffering (i.e., some effort is associated with ANY activity). It seems that Upekkha has been mostly focused on this type.

Now, let us focus on the sufferings that arise later, which are the most important.

2. Of the sufferings that arise later, worse sufferings are associated with “apunnabhisankhara” associated with immoral deeds (dasa akusala.) Patisandhi vinnana for such “bad rebirths” are generated via akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS). Here, “avijja paccaya sankhara” specifically refers to “apunnabhisankhara“.

3. Even “good rebirth” in higher realms result due to punnabhisankhara result from akusala-mula PS process. Here “avijja paccaya sankhara” refers to punnabhisankhara done WITHOUT the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– However, one MUST DO punnabhisankhara. One MUST AVOID apunnabhisankhara, in order to avoid rebirths in the apayas. That way, one will at least be born in good realms so that one can continue on the Path.

4. However, there will be no end to the rebirth process UNTIL one starts doing punnabhisankhara WITH the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– In this case, one’s actions that are done with the comprehension of Tilakkhana will fall under the “kusala-mula PS” process.
– That is what leads to various stages of magga phala and eventually to the Arahanthood.
– It is to be noted that one at lower stages of magga phala will be doing some akusala-mula PS processes and some others with the kusala-mula PS process.
– When one reaches the Arahanthood, one’s actions will be just actions (without kammic consequences) because those actions WILL NOT fall under either PS process. These are still called sankhara (but not abhisankhara). Since they do not have kammic consequences, they are called “punna kriya” (an Arahant would not do immoral deeds). Those sankhara are still “mildly stressful” and that is why “sabbe sankhara dukkha.” All sufferings end with the death of an Arahant (i.e., Parinibbana.)

I have discussed all this in previous replies above. But I did not realize that Upekkha was focused on just the “real-time suffering” due to sankhara.
– Hopefully, this “big picture” will help.

Per Upekkha’s statement above, “Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas…”

Hopefully, it is clear why “sabbe sankhara dukkha” IS a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process, and the apayas.
– The only thing that may not be clear could be that the sankhara generated by an Arahant would also be “mildly stressful”. There will be “an effort” associated with any kind of activity. Furthermore, an Arahant is also subjected to kamma vipaka and thus may suffer via old age, diseases, etc. All suffering ends only at Parinibbana.

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