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Sybe.
If this sutta (and others) say so, then I will not contest the point. (I have just read the relevant part)
However,when you were referring to “then there is still an influence of that mana on the mind of an anagami. I think we can talk about this as mara’s sway, at that moment.” (September 18, 2018 at 4:07 pm),it was about anagamis still in a human body in the human realm, where Mara still has influence over as a location or loka, but not (decisively) over their mindset, which is already that of a brahma.
Thank you for the reference,
Much Metta
Thank you Sybe:
One thing I need to have resolved first, otherwise anything I say from now on will not only be irrelevant but actually incorrect (based on a wrong assumption). Therefore I feel I cannot even comment when it comes to (Mara’s influence on) anagamis.
Up to now I have taken it that Mara can exercise his authority only in the Deva lokas and below, since he presides over the highest one of them (and therefore over the lower ones as well). If the influence of his power extended to even brahma realms, would his ‘seat of power’ not be based there instead? And how will he entice with forms and sense-pleasures those who have gone beyond them? This is only my thinking. I am not saying it is so, or even that it should be so. How is it in reality? I do not know.
Much metta
Thank you once again Sybe,
We see eye-to-eye then as to the influence, or lack of it, of devaputta-Mara on those with magga phala.
It is a good thing that I reflected for about 45′ on this before starting to type; some things became clear which were not before:
The whole ground for my position that Mara (in both senses) cannot alter the course of those on magga phala lies in the fact that a Sotapanna has at most 7 more bhava before attaining Nibbana. Now the question (to myself) was: how is it that a Sotapanna has this guarantee, while one on the next higher stage, the Sakadagami, has ‘only’ the guarantee of one (one more, if he attains that stage in the human realm) bhava in the devaloka, with nothing more said as to when he attains Nibbana. One would expect that the higher the stage of attainment, the fewer the bhava possible before Release.
What I had not seen was that a Sakadagami of necessity has already been a Sotapanna, even if only since the previous thought-moment, so the ‘7-bhava guarantee’ applies to him as well; actually it will be one less now. And that makes sense. The same goes in the case of Anagamis. Now, since the course of those on magga phala is set (‘on a fixed course’ as you put it) then no one and nothing can come in the way to prevent it, Mara Deva or kilesa Mara. But we have be using the word ‘influence’ too freely, too broadly. Mara (both) can influence, that is, be the cause of changing course, only those NOT on magga phala (for the reason already given in para 2). With those on magga phala it will only be a case of intrusion or disturbance (to no avail in the end,with no chance of thus ‘influencing’ the outcome, Nibbana)
So, Sybe: ‘Mara as-the-personification-of-kilesa (or craving or anusaya or samyojana or asava) will be there until arahanthood. So in that sense we are under Mara’s sway till arahanthood.’
Will be there, yes. But of no influence ultimately. And ‘sway’approaches more the sense of ‘influence’ than mere intrusion or petty disturbance. So I do not think that “we are under Mara’s sway till arahanthood.”
Much Metta
Sybe,
Thank you for your reply. However, it does not address my question:
“What of those who attain that deva realm WITH MAGGA PHALA? …” the whole para.I have an answer, as you can figure out, but is it altogether correct? Is the THE answer. Is there more to it that I cannot see?
Much metta to you
When Ven. Moggallana was Dusi by name? Maratajjaniya sutta MN 50 ? I only found an audio of it and have no time to listen to it right now.
/www.mixcloud.com/dhammanet/mn-50-maratajjaniya-sutta/
I hope this is it.
infinite gratitude
I am too late ! Sorry! Thank you Sybe
Lal, Sybe:
Thank you
Very enlightening comments.
“And that is actually the problem. He thinks people should be moral, do good deeds, and be born in deva realms just like him.” (Lal)
“I think one can say that someone aiming at higher rebirth (without seeing the need to reach sotapanna stage) is still under Mara’s influence.” That is to say, if one sees the need to reach the Sotapanna stage then one is not under Mara’s influence, and that is not consistent with:” i belief, only an arahant is not anymore under the authority of Mara, but EVEN A SOTAPANNA STILL IS).”
In search for enjoyment in the khandha’s one becomes bounded by Mara (SN22.65)
With wrong view one is under the yoke of Mara (AN4.49).” (Sybe)What of those who attain that deva realm with magga phala? Sakadagamis, for instance? Does Mara have sway over them? It appears not, for they are guaranteed only one bhava in devalokas (they cannot be detained there after that) then, depending on their progress there, they attain either a higher brahma realm or Nibbana.
Much Metta to all
Tobias,
Thank you..for both replies and for bearing with me. I must have a break now. Getting dizzy. I have sat here for hours.
Much metta
“Mara’s voice will be there constantly when one sets a foot on the Path, is my experience at least”
Yes, Sybe, I think all of us are engaged in this struggle to one degree or another, depending on the stage we are at on the Path.
I see this Mara as one who seeks to keep beings intent on release from material existence (including fine-material existence) bound there; this is his function. For those not on the Path he is not needed; the sense-objects all around in Nature herself will be enough. Out of this very struggle, stumbling along and falling over and over again, we finally make a great determination … and, but for this struggle against Mara, we would drift hopelessly and endlessly along in sansara.
Much Metta
Thank you Tobias,
“If one sees this as the purpose, then one should remain in sansara forever”
One sees this as the purpose WHILE in sansara (“Sure, there is enough reason for vipaka”)- all the while ever mindful of the greater purpose, Nibbana.
“All what is needed, is to stop the mistake of attaching to anything in this world” This is so, but also much easier said than done for all but Anagamis. Most, even of those on the Path, will have attachments. Maybe more, maybe less.
Much Metta
Tobias,
Thank you for this but which Sutta are you referring to (quoting Lal) ?
The question here is: does this sukkhita abhisaṅkhara lead to the subhakinha deva realm irrespective if done with comprehension of Tilakkhana or not? Or, better said, does one have to have attained magga phala to generate this sukkhita abhisaṅkhara? Or, does one return or not?
I ask this because another sutta AN 7.52:lists the various realms to be attained by the practice of dana depending on the motive:- Questions About Puredhamma Posts › Jhana and magga pala –
February 9, 2018 at 7:57 am: ‘After the first six motives of Dana with their particular rewards in the 6 realms immediately above the human one are enumerated by the Self-Perfected One, He states the seventh motive to be : ‘with the thought: this is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind’ – cittalankaracittaparikkharam- leading after death first to the realm of the retinue of Brahma and to Anagami after that.’…to which Lal replies: February 9, 2018 at 5:00 pm: “There are many suttas such as the one you quoted (which I had not read), where it is shown that magga phala can be attained without going through any jhana….But this sutta is interesting in that it says Anagami stage is possible by alms giving or making offerings (dana)….
On the surface it appears that one may not need to have a comprehension of Tilakkhana or the Four Noble Truths in order to attain the Anagami stage” and February 10, 2018 at 8:41 am : “Exactly how one can get to the Anagami stage by dana or giving. It is not just the act of giving. One has to have the right mindset, and that comes from grasping Tilakkhana;”Does this apply to sukkhita abhisaṅkhara?
Metta
Inflib,
I see what you mean when you say that’Nature’ brought us here for a purpose, and ‘Nature has brought each of us for a very special reason’.
But for that to come about Nature or Existence instills in us, in our parents in this specific case, the very powerful, the irresistible urge for sex. If it were not so, the cosmic process in the human and animal realms would not operate. But since it does, THEN ( and this is the REASON, or one of the reasons)the parents can fulfill the duty of paying the debts due to those children, plus a host of other dues to other beings in a human body at that time.
I am therefore not with Tobias here when he says “A „purpose“ requires a creator or thinker to set the goal or purpose” The ultimate purpose of all beings anywhere in Existence, the purpose of Existence itself, is to attain Nibbana. Still there is no creator, no thinker, much less an ‘Almighty God’ behind all this. The ‘purpose’ is ingrained in the Dhamma itself, which took no almighty Thinker to sit down and formulate it – which, among other things, would beg the question: and what of the infinite time prior to that? DHAMMA ALWAYS IS. My way of putting it is: it MUST be so because it cannot be otherwise.(I apply this criterion to resolve conclusively any issue) If there were a beginning a multitude of irresolvable philosophical problems come up.
In the post ‘Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gathi’ Lal and myself take up precisely this topic, from my entry dated September 15, 2018 at 7:52 pm (last para) et seq. See what you make of it.
Much Metta
Thank you Lal,
I never accepted this Creator concept, even as a child, and that in a Catholic country. I was satisfied that I could prove it TO MYSELF, no point trying to discuss it with others who are content to just ‘go with the flow’ and feel safe and secure in the numbers there. I just wanted the state my view.
“…the bigger unknown…This is why we need to strive hard to make progress on the Path” It boils down to this, as always; (while)the operations of Existence will proceed in the way they always have, irrespective of how we conceive of them.
May you attain Nibbana in this life,
Ever so grateful
Thank you Lal:
So I take it that, as to ” what determines the conditions of the next jati here? Will it be a direct consequence of,or influenced overwhelmingly by, the abhisankhara and therefore the javana power generated during the present jati?”, that will depend on how Existence or the Nature balances the strenghts of the kamma vipaka that brought about the present bhava on one side, and on the other, the javana power generated during the present jati? Is that how it is? and there will be no indications or signs of the next jati at all(equivalent to the nimitta on the change of bhava). I hope I have been clear.
In short, I am trying to see whether one can ‘choose’, or at least influence to a significant degree, the conditions of the next jati (in the current bhava) by powerful abhisankhara(s) and thus ‘overpower’ or divert at will the overall blueprint of the bhava – as an idea,somewhat in parallel with the instantaneous change of bhava between opapatika realms due to anantariya kamma; of course, in the human realm it will not be in the same jati, but will it be possible in the next one? This is what I mean. Again, I hope I have been clear.
And, Lal: we always say that Existence or Nature ‘knows’. The thought may arise that since It knows, It is therefore an entity, because to know is an attribute of sentient beings -therefore, Existence (in its totality) is a Being.. The Mahāyāna get around this by describing It as Be-ness, thus approving of the attribute or quality of being in itself, or by itself, but denying it form or ‘Entity-ness’. I see it as the natural Law that operates, for instance, when one goes outdoors on a chilly night after having had a hot bath. There is no one there declaring the effect and administering the punishment of catching a cold. As someone wrote: one is punished BY one’s wrongdoings not FOR them..and we may add, one is rewarded BY one’s virtues not FOR them. I felt like going a bit into this, not that it is of any consequence. Excuse me for it.
Boundless gratitude
IN “abhidhamma/gandhabbaya-manomaya-kaya/cuti-patisandhi-an-abhidhamma-description/”
#3 “In the last citta vithi, a previous kamma vipaka provides an arammana (thought object) associated with that kamma vipaka through one of the five sense doors: it is normally a visual or a sound associated with the new existence (BHAVA)…….the person will see or hear very clearly whatever the nimitta presented by the kamma vipaka”
In this and several other posts it is stated that this provision (of nimitta and arammana) applies where there is, or is to be, a change in Bhava – that is,a change in the type of Bhava, if I read correctly). Will this also apply when the next bhava is again a human one? It is rare to attain a human bhava anyway, so I understand that it should therefore be even rarer to attain two consecutive human bhavas. I refer to the case where kamma vipaka in the last jati of a human bhava impels one to be born human once again.
Another question is: does this provision of a nimitta/arammana apply also to determine the next jati in a human bhava? If not, what determines the conditions of the next jati here? Will it be a direct consequence of,or influenced overwhelmingly by, the abhisankhara and therefore the javana power generated during the present jati?
A related point: what of those dying persons of theistic beliefs who ‘go’ (apparently) with an image of some saviour or saint or a loved ones as their last thought- object? I am inclined to think that the PRACTICAL experiences of their lives will override any belief, otherwise they are creating their own subjective destinations simply by their wishes or hopes (equivalent to ‘Devachan’ in Theosophy), while what makes sense is that one goes where one deserves to, where one has made oneself fit to go by his very living (deeds, speech and thoughts)
Metta to all
