[Vinh]

Lal wrote:

Here are some critical points to remember:

1. A normal human can be born in most of the 31 realms (excluding those realms reserved for the Anagamis).

– A birth (jati) is within the bhava that is grasped at the cuti-patisandhi moment. A bhava is grasped based on a kamma vipaka.
– If a good kamma vipaka (kamma beeja) is grasped one is born in sugati (good bhava): human, deva, brahma. Such kamma vipaka are rooted in alobha, adosa, amoha, i.e., those are based on meritorious deeds or punnabhisankhara (for arupavacra brahma realms anenjabhisankhara).
– If a bad kamma vipaka (kamma beeja) is grasped one is born in dugati (bad bhava): the four lowest realms. Such kamma vipaka are rooted in lobha, dosa, moha, i.e., those are based on meritorious deeds or apunnabhisankhara.

2. One will be eligible for all these bhava (and jati) until one attains the Sotapanna stage.

– A Sotapanna will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas). There could be many such bad kamma beeja, but he/she WILL NOT grasp any of them.
– A Sakadagami will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas) and the human bhava. So, a Sakadagami can be born only in a deva or brahma bhava.
– An Anagami will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas) and anywhere in kama loka. So, an Anagami can be born only in a brahma bhava. Most are born in the rupavacara brahma realms reserved for Anagamis.
– An Arahant will not born any of the 31 realms. He/she will attain Parinibbana upon the death of the physical body.

3. When one is born in a “good bhava“, lobha, dosa, moha are SUPPRESSED at various levels.

– For example, when one is born in any brahma realm, kama raga is absent as long as one is in that bhava. But that brahma may grasp a lower bhava with kama raga (say human) upon death there. In this case, it is said that kama raga remained as an anusaya during the brahma lifetime, because it had NOT been REMOVED.
– However, an Ariya will NEVER grasp a lower bhava, because he/she has REMOVED anusaya at that level. For example, a Sakadagmi will NOT be born in the human bhava or the apayas.

4. This can be explained via step-by-step removal of the dasa samyojana as well, with stages of magga phala.

– For example, three samyojana of sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa are removed at the Sotapanna stage. With those three “bonds” REMOVED, a Sotapanna will never be born in the apayas.

These are important facts. Don’t hesitate to ask questions if not clear.

[Vinh]

Thank you for the answer isn’t karma raga and the patigha fetter temporarily supressed (not removed like in an anagami ) in brahmas of the rupa loka does this not imply an Anagami can have non sensual desires (while an anagami removes kama raga and patigha he doesn’t remove the higher fetter for desire for rupa pleasure which only is removed at arhat )like that of the first  dhyana ?I remember an old post of you where you mentioned that technicly sotappana etc isn’t about what bhava is possible but what bhava becomes impossible at sotppana it means free from apaya at sakadgami free from human realm (only deva realm +)and at anagami free from the sense sphere .(only brahma realms )Certainly the pure abodes can only be occupied by anagamis but there is a difference between all beings in the pure abodes being anagamis and all anagamis having to be in the pure abode . At anagami the 5 lower fetters are anihiliated yet only and arhat removes desire for rupa pleasure . Considering this does this not mean an anagami can be attached to the first dhyana pleasure for example(certainly no sense pleasure ) would it not make sense that a being free of the Sense world but attached to this pleasure is reborn there ?i remember a sutta in which an anagami becomes reborn in the first dhyana and attains arhat from there (upon which he immediately passes in the first dhyana ) there was also a sutta in which two devas are taught by a noble one who become anagamins and are reborn in the brahma purohita realm(give  me a little till I find the two suttas )

-vinh

[Vinh]

i wouldnt say i completetly understood that but that specfic brahma of the highest 1 st jhana has a life span of exactly 1 aeon(buddhist world age) expecialy when the world age ends and everything retracts back into the second jhana plane it becomes apparent there being no end to the cycle there also was a mention of him attaining sotappana after the buddha visited him but i cant remember where i read that so a confirmation or not would be helpful.thank you very much for you answer.

[Vinh]

the devas all also seemed always conected to natural forces like deva of fire etc so maha brahma would be a deva/brahma connected to the physcial universe at least 10.000(which was the number given when people reffered to maha brahma in the sutras) world systems of control would be an accurate representation of that which is ofc the lowest brahma plane but things inside it would be his sphere of influence(ofc lesser brahmas would be his staff)(with mara being like a big shareholder in it ) .i also heared that a brahma or deva can take physcial shape by manifesting a course body so maybe that is how the idea of an allmighty etc creator began to circulate or a brahma of maha brahmas retinue got reborn as human re collecting his past live which is think is what may have been jesus after all what he seemed to have taught were the brahma viharas(if that guy even existed).this is just what id find most coherent and easist to imagine for me but i am not an expert so i hope to find some educated guess on the subject or even answer.i was using the sutta center translation.

[Vinh]

thank you for responding the confusing part for me was that buddha acknowledged his domain Buddhas quote:Brahmā, I too know that if I attach to earth, I will lie close to you, in your domain, vulnerable and expendable. If I attach to water … fire … air … creatures … gods … the Creator … Brahmā, I will lie close to you, in your domain, vulnerable and expendable. ofc the buddha or any being above the first jhana is above that degree but it doesnt invalidate his claim for those lower than him(so brahma seemed not completetly wrong but he missed crucial details that the buddha knew but not him which explains why he could remain deluded for that long afterall brahma is pretty old. this being also seems to be what christians pray too so even there claims arent unfounded as they like to call him allmighty etc which the buddha defined what he can do/do not which isnt allmight ofc(nothing like that exists but he appears to thm like that for a reason)). the thing i understood it its similar two how tavatimsa has the most influence in comparison to the other heavens(above tavatimsa is the last in contact with earth i think) on earth like how the 4 kings report to sakra once in a few moons( i think it was) whats happening on earth or how we humans dictate the “fate”(ofc what they make out of it is there own choice thus there next rebirth is to some degree there choice although ignorance being the strong karma in this realm thus making escaping it hard but never impossible) of the animals/how we like to mess with them from time to time. so i imagined it like jurasdiction exept that the higher ones dont know who the chief is (i mean even human realm has minimum contact with the realm higher than them and its uncommon to see the action of that realm without some mastery in the divine eye through birth or practice so it seems aproptiate to think its also not the norm that lower heavens dont necessarily know higher abodes than them with maybe a few individuals knowing but not the majority) excluding the pure abodes who are oblivious to matters of dominion.

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